Proposal: Kotkaniemi for Graves 1 for 1

[bleedgreen]

I don’t know if 4.82 is too much for a 3C. Depends on how you build your team of course. We paid Jordan Staal 6 for ten years and towards the end no one minded because we needed a shut down guy and he’s good at it. If you build your team down the middle like most teams do, he doesn’t cost too much if he’s doing a good job.

The problem with the Canes and KK is Staal still isn’t going anywhere so the most natural slot for him is taken. He’s either an overpaid 4C, an affordable but impressively underperforming 2C or we move him to wing which didn’t do a lot for him generally.

 

[dgibb10]

I think we'd feel OK about finding a 5-6 D man for under $3.7m per year. You're trying too hard to justify this one. Graves isn't a fit and we don't need help on LD.

Slavin gonna be locked up long term. We have Orlov for 2nd pair this year. Nikishin coming after that.

There's actually a ton of UFA LD after this year if we are looking into the future.

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And again, which of those guys do you think are signing for, when the cap is at likely 92 million.

2.7 mill AAV x 5 if you want to look at total money
3.8 mill AAV x 5 if you want to pretend the last 6 years of KKs buyout cost don't exist.

 

[dgibb10]

Eating up <$1M, 1% of the cap, that's a drop in the bucket...plus we can still wait it out another year and reduce that further.

Not sure what the obsession with is with thinking it has to be 1 player substituting for Graves for 5 years...Chatty 3 years @$3M is better than Graves, then 2 years of a similar guy or rotate guys through. I can think of a lot of d-men we could probably have cheaper than Graves that are better over the next 5 years

Waiting a year means you would pay a total of 12 mill onto the salary cap (1 year of his full salary and then 7.2 mill of total buyout cost).

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

What kind of skater is Graves?

A very bad one

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I don’t know if 4.82 is too much for a 3C. Depends on how you build your team of course. We paid Jordan Staal 6 for ten years and towards the end no one minded because we needed a shut down guy and he’s good at it. If you build your team down the middle like most teams do, he doesn’t cost too much if he’s doing a good job.

The problem with the Canes and KK is Staal still isn’t going anywhere so the most natural slot for him is taken. He’s either an overpaid 4C, an affordable but impressively underperforming 2C or we move him to wing which didn’t do a lot for him generally.

When that contract was signed. Jordan Staal scored 50 points in 62 games. 33 goal pace and this is when scoring 30 was an achievement and a selke winner.

Staal was seen as a shutdown 2C when that contract was signed similar to Kessler on thr Canucks.

I think the contract ended up alright but it wasn't a slam dunk contract.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Exactly, I think it's clear at this point that KK is not what they expected when they signed him. I was just responding to a poster saying he was a quality 3rd line center. If he was , he would've played there in the playoffs,

He was behind Aho, Kuznetsov, and Staal. He's for sure a 3rd line caliber center, but the Canes had 3 of them this postseason (KK, Drury, Staal), and Staal is the go to shutdown guy. Just because Draisaitl played 2C all year doesn't mean he's not a 1C.

not on Kuznetsov wing, on the bottom 6.

He played center for a large portion of playoffs. He was their 2C through the first round. His most common linemate in the playoffs was Necas.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

A very bad one

Ok, then there's no fit for Carolina.

Setting aside contracts, Carolina requires all their defensemen to be decent (or good) skaters. A bad skater in a man-man, tight gap defensive system like Carolina plays will be a terrible fit.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Waiting a year means you would pay a total of 12 mill onto the salary cap (1 year of his full salary and then 7.2 mill of total buyout cost).

Wrong, we can go another year with only the 1/3 buyout still

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Graves would suck even more in Carolina.

Pens just have to hope he plays better in year 2. A more offensive leaning role next to St. Ivany should give him a better chance to play to his strengths.

Bad signing, likely have to ride it out for another year or 2 at the minimum.

 

[Gurglesons]

A very bad one

Really? I think one of Graves few strengths is his skating ability.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

And again, which of those guys do you think are signing for, when the cap is at likely 92 million.

2.7 mill AAV x 5 if you want to look at total money
3.8 mill AAV x 5 if you want to pretend the last 6 years of KKs buyout cost don't exist.

Even if end up paying more for one of them at least they would be (in theory) a better defenseman than Graves. Would rather pay a million or so more and have a good player than have Graves who likely doesn’t fit our system well

 

[HockeyVirus]

Dubas going to trade his first to get out of an albatross he signed the year before again? A tradition of his

 

[dgibb10]

Wrong, we can go another year with only the 1/3 buyout still

Yes and you would have to pay KK 4.8 million dollars for that year, because that is his contract

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Really? I think one of Graves few strengths is his skating ability.

Dude has lead feet, this is a confusing comment.

 

[NYR94]

What kind of skater is Graves?

Slow

 

[Stickpucker]

If he truly was an effective 3C he would've played there in the playoffs and his contract would be fine....

Rod Brind’Amour <3 Jordan Staal.

Next question

 

[WreckingCrew]

Yes and you would have to pay KK 4.8 million dollars for that year, because that is his contract

Just take the L dude...it's either that or the "point" you're trying to make is we have to pay him for the year he plays for us prior to buyout, which "no shit Sherlock"

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

What kind of skater is Graves?

not bad, not great he can move from point A to point B good enough that he wont get trapped or burned, his lateral movement however can be real alarming at times mostly at the possible times, his issues that were mostly with his mediocre agility and below average turning to be honest. He looked good enough with Letang/ Karlsson but that one flaw was glaring when it did.

Edit: Sorry, I'm fighting a cold and I cant really see well since my eyes are watery so dusted this post up a bit.

 

[AvatarAang]

Why is there always a Montreal fan spamming nonsense every time someone mentions kotkaniemi?

We get it. Carolina not only stole your 3rd overall pick, but they also made you panic and trade a 1st for Dvorak. Just let it go, there’s no need to be obsessed with kotkaniemi.

 

[dgibb10]

Just take the L dude...it's either that or the "point" you're trying to make is we have to pay him for the year he plays for us prior to buyout, which "no shit Sherlock"

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Yes, I am aware of the buyout cost.

You are not "saving money" by paying his full salary of 4.8 million dollars for an extra year to save 1.6 mill on the buyout cost

 

[Zbynek]

Kotkaniemi isn't better than a 35 year old Lars Eller. Easiest pass of my life.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Yes, I am aware of the buyout cost.

You are not "saving money" by paying his full salary of 4.8 million dollars for an extra year to save 1.6 mill on the buyout cost

For the 2nd...3rd? 4th time? It's not about saving money, it's about the cap space of the buyout.

 

[dgibb10]

For the 2nd...3rd? 4th time? It's not about saving money, it's about the cap space of the buyout.

Yes, you would remove 2 years of his buyout length, and in order to do that would pay his full salary of 4.8 million for an additional year, in a year where the cap is the lowest.

Cap hits by year:

Buyout this year:
0.835,0.835,0.835,0.455,0.455,0.455,0.835,0.835,0.835,0.835,0.835,0.835: Total cap hit 8.88 mill

Buyout next year
4.820,0.841,0.841,0.461,0.461,0.461,0.841,0.841,0.841,0.841,0.841: Total cap hit: 12.09 mill

The only year you save cap space in by waiting a year to buy him out is 2034-35, in which you will save 835k

 

[WreckingCrew]

Yes, you would remove 2 years of his buyout length, and in order to do that would pay his full salary of 4.8 million for an additional year, in a year where the cap is the lowest.

Cap hits by year:

Buyout this year:
0.835,0.835,0.835,0.455,0.455,0.455,0.835,0.835,0.835,0.835,0.835,0.835: Total cap hit 8.88 mill

Buyout next year
4.820,0.841,0.841,0.461,0.461,0.461,0.841,0.841,0.841,0.841,0.841: Total cap hit: 12.09 mill

The only year you save cap space in by waiting a year to buy him out is 2034-35, in which you will save 835k

You can read the screenshot I posted right? Where it clearly says 2025 buyout date? And $.841M post-buyout earnings every year including the first year? Unless your including that we would pay this year...which again is irrelevant to everything that's been discussed as far as when/why we'd buy him out and how favorable it is compared to Graves.

 

[dgibb10]

You can read the screenshot I posted right? Where it clearly says 2025 buyout date? And $.841M post-buyout earnings every year including the first year?

Yes, I can.

Have you looked at the cap hits?

And again, you are pretending that you wouldn't have to pay his salary this year if you don't buy him out.

4.82 million dollars. And if he's worth buying out at all, then you're better off buying him out this year