ricky0034
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2010
- 15,398
- 7,832
it amuses me how Crosby fans have become the literal embodiment of the Toews making that Centennial list over Malkin thing that probably really annoyed them and don't see the irony in it
This thread isn’t about those players. And it’s not about IMO which player is better. The topic of this fantasy is who do we draft “knowing what we know” now between Crosby or McDavid? The OP mentions this in his post. He talks about McDavid as the better player but that Crosby brings winning championships.Henrik sedin jarome iginla has no cups.
However Patrick maroon has 3 cups!
Patrick maroon >>>>>>>> iginla and hank
This thread isn’t about those players. And it’s not about IMO which player is better. The topic of this fantasy is who do we draft “knowing what we know” now between Crosby or McDavid? The OP mentions this in his post. He talks about McDavid as the better player but that Crosby brings winning championships.
“Age to age - McDavid is having the better career so far. I think that's almost unquestionable. But a redraft introduces a few dynamics worth considering that may make Crosby the more attractive option:
Winning Pedigree. Crosby has an insane winning pedigree in his career, that has followed him at every level, juniors, NHL playoffs”
Crosby leads his team (we know this now) to three Cups. McDavid (we know now) has so far led his team to no Cups. In my view this thread isn’t about which player is better or has had the better individual career. It’s a fantasy where we get to draft one or the other to our club and he brings “what we know” are his accomplishments. Crosby brings three Cups. McDavid brings brilliant talent. For my club I prefer the three Cups.
There are some parallels yes - but it's also different.it amuses me how Crosby fans have become the literal embodiment of the Toews making that Centennial list over Malkin thing that probably really annoyed them and don't see the irony in it
It’s a fantasy thread dreamed up by the OP. Your interpretation of the OP’s intent is different than mine. There are more posters choosing Crosby over McDavid. Leading a club to championships is important, as pointed out in the OP’s first post. If your view is this thread is about which player between the two has had the better career the OP covered that in his first post, as I pointed out. He clearly says McDavid has the better career numbers when the players are compared. Then the OP mentions intangibles, like championships as a way to give Crosby a chance to be selected. I don’t understand why you get upset over this. It’s a fantasy and for fun.Just stop. Your posts are ridiculous.
Drafting Crosby doesn't guarantee 3 cups. Just like in a redraft, if given the choice between Gretzky and Henri Richard, drafting Henri Richard wouldn't guarantee 11 cups.
There have been 502 posts in this thread so far and every single poster in this thread understands this extremely basic and obvious logic, except for you.
And you don't think I'm more suited to interpret the OP's intent than you are?It’s a fantasy thread dreamed up by the OP. Your interpretation of the OP’s intent is different than mine. There are more posters choosing Crosby over McDavid. Leading a club to championships is important, as pointed out in the OP’s first post. If your view is this thread is about which player between the two has had the better career the OP covered that in his first post, as I pointed out. He clearly says McDavid has the better career numbers when the players are compared. Then the OP mentions intangibles, like championships as a way to give Crosby a chance to be selected. I don’t understand why you get upset over this. It’s a fantasy and for fun.
Henry Richard won 10 Cups (might be 11?). If he was part of this fantasy I’d want him on the team I cheer for and the 10 Cups.
1.89 PPG over the last two postseasons. If you think that’s a “mystery box” because his team didn’t win the magic trophy that magically transforms players from bad to good and good to great then I think you just lack imagination.
Oddly enough, that's exactly how I feel about point who just slap points totals down on the table and call it a day.
Here's the thing about points totals -
I believe they're heavily team influenced too. People say you can't judge people simply on cups, or 5v5 goal differentials, because they're very heavily team dependent, and that's right... but so are points totals.
Let's run an example
Connor McDavid's 5v5 p/60 over the last 3 playoffs - 3.166. Nice, superelite.
But break it down into 335:31 minutes with Draisaitl and 252:06 minutes without and you get...
4.29 p/60 with Draisaitl
1.666 p/60 without
Heavily team influenced, no?
Which seems to suggest three logical conclusions
1) They shouldn't be treated as a trump argument of player quality without considering the rest of the guys there
2) We can't assume that McDavid on another team would have the same points totals and individual hardware he's managed - what if that team doesn't have a Draisaitl? What if that team asks him to lift other players and rarely plays Draisaitl there?
3) The whole "McDavid is giving elite performance in the playoffs and is unfortunate to have a crap team around him" argument has a hole because he is very ordinary without Draisaitl. Which of course might have something to do with his linemates - but it's not cut and dried as a simple argument.
All reasons why I don't see the production numbers as conclusive proof that McDavid is better than Crosby, and therefore go with the guy who I know can be the leader of a cup winning team rather than the guy who's a mystery box there.
That's a huge difference with and without Draisaitl.
Ayup.
And I don't want to bury him for it. Being a Penguins fan means I've seen firsthand that just being generational doesn't mean it's an easy ride being the focus of opposition attention with weak wingers in the playoffs.
But that's the point. Everything is situational, there's always another layer of knowledge deeper down, and you can give reasons for why everything goes right or wrong. The moment you start it for one thing, you should start it for everything.
Which is why so many of us just go for the easy "don't have to hypothesise, it happened" answers here. Fair enough to everyone who goes that way on McDavid's higher scoring, I go that way with Sid's higher cup count.
Just stop. Your posts are ridiculous.
Drafting Crosby doesn't guarantee 3 cups. Just like in a redraft, if given the choice between Gretzky and Henri Richard, drafting Henri Richard wouldn't guarantee 11 cups.
There have been 502 posts in this thread so far and every single poster in this thread understands this extremely basic and obvious logic, except for you.
This thread isn’t about those players. And it’s not about IMO which player is better. The topic of this fantasy is who do we draft “knowing what we know” now between Crosby or McDavid? The OP mentions this in his post. He talks about McDavid as the better player but that Crosby brings winning championships.
“Age to age - McDavid is having the better career so far. I think that's almost unquestionable. But a redraft introduces a few dynamics worth considering that may make Crosby the more attractive option:
Winning Pedigree. Crosby has an insane winning pedigree in his career, that has followed him at every level, juniors, NHL playoffs”
Crosby leads his team (we know this now) to three Cups. McDavid (we know now) has so far led his team to no Cups. In my view this thread isn’t about which player is better or has had the better individual career. It’s a fantasy where we get to draft one or the other to our club and he brings “what we know” are his accomplishments. Crosby brings three Cups. McDavid brings brilliant talent. For my club I prefer the three Cups.
I mean, look at my Bolts. Got swept as the PT winners, but then his magic championship aura from the Blues was what turned everything around and led to us winning B2B cups. Feel free to ignore Hedman, Vasilevskiy, Kucherov, Point, Stamkos, and McDonagh. It was all Maroon and the magic from his cup aura he first got in 2019.This is why I feel Pat Maroon is one of the league’s best, but few take me seriously. Look, if championships matter- dude has ‘em like few others. Champ.
Crosby won the Cup in 2016 because he played a great 2-way, puck possession game...
You might say he led your team. Watch him in practice, its the little things he does. Hedman et al were afraid to disappoint fat pat and it showed in the playoffs.I mean, look at my Bolts. Got swept as the PT winners, but then his magic championship aura from the Blues was what turned everything around and led to us winning B2B cups. Feel free to ignore Hedman, Vasilevskiy, Kucherov, Point, Stamkos, and McDonagh. It was all Maroon and the magic from his cup aura he first got in 2019.
I mean, look at my Bolts. Got swept as the PT winners, but then his magic championship aura from the Blues was what turned everything around and led to us winning B2B cups. Feel free to ignore Hedman, Vasilevskiy, Kucherov, Point, Stamkos, and McDonagh. It was all Maroon and the magic from his cup aura he first got in 2019.
I don't want to get too far into the debate. But McDavid has a lot more tools than just that.McDavid is a reel but Crosby is far more complete - harder down low and adaptable versus just being really really fast.
I hope I don’t have to say what everyone is thinking but Golden Goal - fluky but it still crossed the line and two Conns (Philly should have got the first).
Do you like this supermodel, or that one? That’s what this is. Crosby by a nose.
That stat is really damming actually. And is the reason the Oilers haven't advanced further.Oddly enough, that's exactly how I feel about point who just slap points totals down on the table and call it a day.
Here's the thing about points totals -
I believe they're heavily team influenced too. People say you can't judge people simply on cups, or 5v5 goal differentials, because they're very heavily team dependent, and that's right... but so are points totals.
Let's run an example
Connor McDavid's 5v5 p/60 over the last 3 playoffs - 3.166. Nice, superelite.
But break it down into 335:31 minutes with Draisaitl and 252:06 minutes without and you get...
4.29 p/60 with Draisaitl
1.666 p/60 without
Heavily team influenced, no?
Which seems to suggest three logical conclusions
1) They shouldn't be treated as a trump argument of player quality without considering the rest of the guys there
2) We can't assume that McDavid on another team would have the same points totals and individual hardware he's managed - what if that team doesn't have a Draisaitl? What if that team asks him to lift other players and rarely plays Draisaitl there?
3) The whole "McDavid is giving elite performance in the playoffs and is unfortunate to have a crap team around him" argument has a hole because he is very ordinary without Draisaitl. Which of course might have something to do with his linemates - but it's not cut and dried as a simple argument.
All reasons why I don't see the production numbers as conclusive proof that McDavid is better than Crosby, and therefore go with the guy who I know can be the leader of a cup winning team rather than the guy who's a mystery box there.
The 09 Penguins were not better than the Oilers the last two years aside from Crosby and MalkinCrosby is one of my favorite players. However lets not ignore the fact he was on the Pittsburgh Penguins much better built team than the Oilers of the past 5 years.
And the reason the Penguins were able to assemble such a good 3rd line was because they played their first line center with two terrible playoff performers as wingers.No he didn't. Crosby was getting scored on a lot in 2016, and he never shut anyone down. Nor did he PK. And his offensive zone starts were 66% - similar to the most offensively oriented players in the entire NHL.
Crosby was just plain not very good in the 2016 playoffs - scoring at a 21 goal / 65 point pace as a minus player.
The Pens had a great 3rd line that was scoring like a first line and that was the difference maker.