Kitchener Rangers 2023-24 Off-Season Thread (Part 1)

[EvenSteven]

City and Rangers talking about expanding the Aud to 10 thousand. Got a text on it. Anyone else hear anything about this info? Suppose to cost 150 million. Apparently Brown has an article on this in the Record today. I don't have a subscription.

Makes a whole lot more sense than a new building downtown. Cheaper. The Aud is a sound structure. Likely would do the same expansion on the penalty box side that they did on the players bench side.

Besides, with immigration / population growth / city growth, in 20 or so years the King and Ottawa area will be considered a part of downtown anyway.

 

[robertmac43]

Intersting - the reno on the box side makes sense.

My only question is - does this not delay the inevitable? Sure the AUD is a sound structure and it's a building with a lot of history to it. At what point does it make sense to build something more modern from the ground up?

 

[EvenSteven]

Intersting - the reno on the box side makes sense.

My only question is - does this not delay the inevitable? Sure the AUD is a sound structure and it's a building with a lot of history to it. At what point does it make sense to build something more modern from the ground up?

It probably made sense financially to have done it years ago when it could have been built at a fraction of todays prices.

The price tag for the Bud Gardens in London was 40 million in 2002. That building should last that city for another 50+ years. That’s when this city should have gotten serious about replacing the Aud

What would a new building cost today? Minimum triple the 150 million reno cost.

You’d have a hard time justifying a half a billion price tag for junior hockey. And yes it would be used for more than junior hockey. But there are multiple buildings around an hours drive away that would serve those needs. Concerts etc.

IMO, when the city choose the LRT over a new building, that was the death blow to ever having a new building in many of our lifetimes.

 

[bobber]

Years ago I was sitting with Paul Fixter's dad at practice. He told me the coaches are at a meeting discussing building a new 12 thousand seat arena out by the 401. That never happened of course. Guess they did have and option to expand to 10 grand or something last time and never took it up. Sudbury is looking at a new rink at the starting costs of 300 million. Getting nuts for junior hockey.

 

[EvenSteven]

Years ago I was sitting with Paul Fixter's dad at practice. He told me the coaches are at a meeting discussing building a new 12 thousand seat arena out by the 401. That never happened of course. Guess they did have and option to expand to 10 grand or something last time and never took it up. Sudbury is looking at a new rink at the starting costs of 300 million. Getting nuts for junior hockey.

That 300 million dollar rink in Sudbury I believe will seat under 6000. More than double that for something seating 10 to 12 thousand.

 

[bobber]

Last expansion the Rangers took on the expense. Who would foot the bill if this came to fruition? If cost continue to inflate ticket prices have to keep increasing. This has to be considered when looking at expansion. That bill would have to be paid by someone.

 

[robertmac43]

It probably made sense financially to have done it years ago when it could have been built at a fraction of todays prices.

Oh if we could go back in time I would buy 5 houses in the Region haha. Todays price on everything is wild.

The price tag on a new arena would be steep for sure. We will need one eventually though. I keep seeing projections for Waterloo Region to hit 1 million people around the year 2050. A 12,000 sear arena that can host more people for the Rangers but also bring in bigger musical acts and things of that nature will be important to the Region.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

City and Rangers talking about expanding the Aud to 10 thousand. Got a text on it. Anyone else hear anything about this info? Suppose to cost 150 million. Apparently Brown has an article on this in the Record today. I don't have a subscription.

I heard scuttlebutt from people who live right by the Aud that there was some talk of the Aud site being converted into a hospital site, with a new arena being built. I personally can't imagine there are any legs to it. This makes it seems even less likely, but thought it was worth passing on here.

 

[EvenSteven]

Oh if we could go back in time I would buy 5 houses in the Region haha. Todays price on everything is wild.

The price tag on a new arena would be steep for sure. We will need one eventually though. I keep seeing projections for Waterloo Region to hit 1 million people around the year 2050. A 12,000 sear arena that can host more people for the Rangers but also bring in bigger musical acts and things of that nature will be important to the Region.

Need or want?

Bigger musical acts, for example, can be seen within an hour’s drive east, west and south.

KW being centrally located between the buildings in London, Toronto and Hamilton might have big acts skipping over Kitchener, 10 to 12 thousand seats or not, as a stopover between big markets in Detroit / Buffalo / Toronto.

I’m not against a new rink but because of the price tag, I’m skeptical it’ll ever get done in our lifetime.

What killed the proposal to build a new rink 10 years ago or so, was the decision to spend the money on the LRT.

The LRT took precedent back then and it will today until the (most expensive) Cambridge leg of the LRT is complete. How many years and how much money will be tied up there?

The Rangers helped fund the last expansion but I don’t believe they funded it 100%. The city stepped up financially there. That’s a big reason why Mayor Carl Zehr had his name added to the Kitchener Rangers’ captains wall. (Yes, you read that right). That and the very cheap loan from the city for the team to buy the current score clock.

 

[Jives]

For the Rangers the Aud at it current state is just fine. How many games sold out? I don’t know to be honest but it doesn’t seem to be worth it when it seems to me (someone can confirm im sure) 90% of games are not sell outs. We are going to add a huge cost for 10% of the games. To me that makes zero sense.

 

[EvenSteven]

I heard scuttlebutt from people who live right by the Aud that there was some talk of the Aud site being converted into a hospital site, with a new arena being built. I personally can't imagine there are any legs to it. This makes it seems even less likely, but thought it was worth passing on here.

Most would think a new hospital would trump a sports and entertainment center.

For the Rangers the Aud at it current state is just fine. How many games sold out? I don’t know to be honest but it doesn’t seem to be worth it when it seems to me (someone can confirm im sure) 90% of games are not sell outs. We are going to add a huge cost for 10% of the games. To me that makes zero sense.

Historically, first round playoff games at the Aud have been poorly attended. You’d see 4000+ for first round games. This year, we had nearly full buildings for every playoff home date.

That may be why people are thinking that we could use bigger building now.

 

[K2]

Last expansion the Rangers took on the expense. Who would foot the bill if this came to fruition?

It would have to be a multi-level government project with significant Prov/Fed participation.

We choked on repaying that $9mil loan (from 2012) during COVID then renegotiated, extending the term out to 2030. We're also paying off the remainder of a 'business continuance' loan from shutdown for the same period. As flush as we run during the season, we'll never have adequate cashflow or reserves as a not-for-profit to pay 10s/100s of millions for AUD improvements & I doubt that we have the demand elasticity to significantly crank ticket prices even if only our rent increased.

Not sure how often a thousand extra seats would have even been necessary since hosting in 2008. Even in recent sellouts there's lots of unoccupied STH & blue seats. Definitely need something new eventually, likely with dozens of dedicated bike access lanes and a few hundred EV chargers

 

[EvenSteven]

It would have to be a multi-level government project with significant Prov/Fed participation.

We choked on repaying that $9mil loan (from 2012) during COVID then renegotiated, extending the term out to 2030. We're also paying off the remainder of a 'business continuance' loan from shutdown for the same period. As flush as we run during the season, we'll never have adequate cashflow or reserves as a not-for-profit to pay 10s/100s of millions for AUD improvements & I doubt that we have the demand elasticity to significantly crank ticket prices even if only our rent increased.

Not sure how often a thousand extra seats would have even been necessary since hosting in 2008. Even in recent sellouts there's lots of unoccupied STH & blue seats. Definitely need something new eventually, likely with dozens of dedicated bike access lanes and a few hundred EV chargers

Lol!!
Instead of having a car pool lot, any parking at all will only be allowed for EV cars. Unless you own an EV car, you’ll have to park elsewhere! You’ll be expected to take public transit or use those bike lanes you’re talking about!!!

 

[Krangers08]

USHL draft is on Monday. Should have a clearer picture of what Anstis and Xu’s plans are.

 

[bobber]

When prices get extreme at sporting events there are a lot of "corporate seats" or business seats using the Leafs as an example. I think there are quite a few at the Aud presently.
We had 4 "business seats" beside us when we had seasons. It does change the dynamic of the fan base somewhat. It's the same with director seats. The ones I knew had 4 seats each. We had a couple of sets of two behind us. Different people in them mostly talking and not watching hockey. I am surprised at the talk of expanding the Aud with the current state of the economy. Maybe people have more disposable income than I think.

 

[robertmac43]

Need or want?

Bigger musical acts, for example, can be seen within an hour’s drive east, west and south.

KW being centrally located between the buildings in London, Toronto and Hamilton might have big acts skipping over Kitchener, 10 to 12 thousand seats or not, as a stopover between big markets in Detroit / Buffalo / Toronto.

I’m not against a new rink but because of the price tag, I’m skeptical it’ll ever get done in our lifetime.

What killed the proposal to build a new rink 10 years ago or so, was the decision to spend the money on the LRT.

The LRT took precedent back then and it will today until the (most expensive) Cambridge leg of the LRT is complete. How many years and how much money will be tied up there?

The Rangers helped fund the last expansion but I don’t believe they funded it 100%. The city stepped up financially there. That’s a big reason why Mayor Carl Zehr had his name added to the Kitchener Rangers’ captains wall. (Yes, you read that right). That and the very cheap loan from the city for the team to buy the current score clock.

I'd. say it will be a need at some point. Waterloo Region is losing a lot of people to Toronto and other bigger Cities that have more to offer in terms of 'placemaking'. Sure there are solid places 1 hour or so outside of the City, but at the end of the day, Waterloo Region has aspirations of growing into something bigger and better.

I saw some stats about the 20-35 population in the Region. Many are moving away from Kitchener-Waterloo and more and more UW grads are opting to leave the area post graduation. This is a trend both Cities want to curb. They see building an event space as a key way to do this.

I heard scuttlebutt from people who live right by the Aud that there was some talk of the Aud site being converted into a hospital site, with a new arena being built. I personally can't imagine there are any legs to it. This makes it seems even less likely, but thought it was worth passing on here.

This has legs. It would be a massive project that takes 20+ years. I work adjacent to the Urban Planning industry and have heard the rumours of this project for years. There are a couple of groups taking the next steps to get this thing off the ground.

 

[EvenSteven]

I'd. say it will be a need at some point. Waterloo Region is losing a lot of people to Toronto and other bigger Cities that have more to offer in terms of 'placemaking'. Sure there are solid places 1 hour or so outside of the City, but at the end of the day, Waterloo Region has aspirations of growing into something bigger and better.

I saw some stats about the 20-35 population in the Region. Many are moving away from Kitchener-Waterloo and more and more UW grads are opting to leave the area post graduation. This is a trend both Cities want to curb. They see building an event space as a key way to do this.

This has legs. It would be a massive project that takes 20+ years. I work adjacent to the Urban Planning industry and have heard the rumours of this project for years. There are a couple of groups taking the next steps to get this thing off the ground.

People in that age group are likely leaving the area for a couple reasons. Employment and affordable housing.

Waterloo region used to be a major hub for manufacturing. Well paying jobs. You name it, they made it here. These days, this is a manufacturing ghost town.

I know younger people on my extended family who, in order to be able to buy a house, are living over hour away in more rural areas just to afford to get into the housing market. Same reason a ton of people are leaving TO for places like Waterloo region. Housing prices.

 

[Matttheleaf]

I always remember this video of what the Aud would have looked like if they did both sides at the same time. Obviously they only did one side and kept it at the same level (not a second bowl) so I wonder how they would incorporate the other side considering all the box seats, and how you wouldn't want to move those all the way to the top.

 

[robertmac43]

People in that age group are likely leaving the area for a couple reasons. Employment and affordable housing.

Waterloo region used to be a major hub for manufacturing. Well paying jobs. You name it, they made it here. These days, this is a manufacturing ghost town.

I know younger people on my extended family who, in order to be able to buy a house, are living over hour away in more rural areas just to afford to get into the housing market. Same reason a ton of people are leaving TO for places like Waterloo region. Housing prices.

Oh I agree on the housing front - it's brutal here. I fall in that population bracket and I'm unsure how i will ever afford to actually own here...

I get the sense the Region is confused by the # of high paying tech workers that leave the City to 'work from home' in other cities. Some are attributing it to a lack of placemaking efforts in town , but I would tend to agree that the main issue is house prices (not that we need to get into it here).

 

[East Avenue Bully]

The Aud land is not large enough for the new hospital site. The minimum size is 50 acres, preferably more

 

[EvenSteven]

The Aud land is not large enough for the new hospital site. The minimum size is 50 acres, preferably more

They’ll expropriate houses in the immediate area.

 

[East Avenue Bully]

They’ll expropriate houses in the immediate area.

No, they won't. The cost and voter outcry would be too high.

There's a shortlist of three sites (more like two). The Aud site is not one of them.

 

[bobber]

Oh I agree on the housing front - it's brutal here. I fall in that population bracket and I'm unsure how i will ever afford to actually own here...

I get the sense the Region is confused by the # of high paying tech workers that leave the City to 'work from home' in other cities. Some are attributing it to a lack of placemaking efforts in town , but I would tend to agree that the main issue is house prices (not that we need to get into it here).

People either sell in the GTA and buy cheaper here or are new home buyers from that area looking for more affordable housing. GTA housing prices are ridiculous. A half million dollar house here is a million 30 miles from here where the GTA encompasses. A relatives old house there just went on the market for 1 million. Probably not worth 300 grand. Anyway getting off track. Back to the Aud.

 

[EvenSteven]

No, they won't. The cost and voter outcry would be too high.

There's a shortlist of three sites (more like two). The Aud site is not one of them.

Voter outcry never stopped them before. Expropriation is a part of life in the city.

 

[East Avenue Bully]

Voter outcry never stopped them before. Expropriation is a part of life in the city.

It's not a city or Region choice..

That decision is with GRH and SMGH. The Aud is not a site they are considering.