Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I can't beleive the amount of writing and pages for Dach. He's taking way too much time to recover mentally and come back in better physical and psychological condition. And everybody here discuss about him like if it was an emergency. First of all, hockey is an entertainment, secondly Dach is an human with his weakness so we can't expect him to get back to his better hockey by magic. He's not a robot with a switch that can be turned on.

The only think to be done is patience. Wait and wait. Wait that he become a better player or wait that he is traded. Sure he can be demoted to the 4th line or sit in the press box a few games but what's the point? You guys think it will work like magic? No it won't. It will be just spending time, a distraction for a few days.

 

[Naslundforever]

I can't beleive the amount of writing and pages for Dach. He's taking way too much time to recover mentally and come back in better physical and psychological condition. And everybody here discuss about him like if it was an emergency. First of all, hockey is an entertainment, secondly Dach is an human with his weakness so we can't expect him to get back to his better hockey by magic. He's not a robot with a switch that can be turned on.

The only think to be done is patience. Wait and wait. Wait that he become a better player or wait that he is traded. Sure he can be demoted to the 4th line or sit in the press box a few games but what's the point? You guys think it will work like magic? No it won't. It will be just spending time, a distraction for a few days.

I agree with your first half.

Your second contradicts the 1st in that hockey is meant as entertainment but assumes somehow watching Dach is entertaining? Or watching him smother any life from anyone on his line quite consistantly? That there is no point?

Playing him away from the team’s scorers improves the product and helps actual difference makers; it’s not just about him getting good (for me anyway). No magic expected here.

 

[LaP]

The more TOI you give to Evans the least sense it will make to sign him. If the plan is to trade him for the highest possible pick then yeah give him the 2nd line. If the plan is to extend him then keep him in a bottom 6 role.

 

[Goalfield13]

Who do you replace him with? Dvorak?

You have asked this before. EVANS.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You have asked this before. EVANS.

I told you why I hate that idea.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

This guy has gotta go, serious candidate for worst player in the NHL a lot of nights

 

[salbutera]

I still think Dach can recover.......it's taking longer than I thought, and right now he is painful to watch.....it seems to be physical, and mental with him.
He could very well be suited more to be a winger, than at C.

Gorton said at golf tourney they expect Dach to regaining his stride post New year in mid/late Jan based on input from the surgeon who operated on him (Dr Marx) and Dr Scott the teams sports psychologist… I assume none of this is a surprise to HuGo

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I told you why I hate that idea.

Evans is 28. He's playing good this year, after 3 years of mediocre results. Evans is not amazingy, he looks good if we compare with the mediocre centers like Dvorak and Dach. Not a good idea to be fooled, thinking he is that good. If I was the GM I would not sign him. I think like Snake Boivert on this. He's gonna get signed 3M a year for the next 4 years. Bad idea. He's gonna take the spot of a young center, he's gonna get injured and he will drop drasticly when he'll be 30. We will regret his last 2 years of contract.

We are so accustomed to bad centers that we don't see the reality. Evans is a 4th center at best and not the type of hard player of a 4th line who plays with grit and sandpaper. And I think there are better 3rd line centers in the league. In Montreal (and Canada), we are accustomed with mediocre results, the bar gets lower and lower every day.

 

[Goalfield13]

I told you why I hate that idea.

Yeah, but you keep asking the question looking for a different answer.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Evans is 28. He's playing good this year, after 3 years of mediocre results. Evans is not amazingy, he looks good if we compare with the mediocre centers like Dvorak and Dach. Not a good idea to be fooled, thinking he is that good. If I was the GM I would not sign him. I think like Snake Boivert on this. He's gonna get signed 3M a year for the next 4 years. Bad idea. He's gonna take the spot of a young center, he's gonna get injured and he will drop drasticly when he'll be 30. We will regret his last 2 years of contract.

We are so accustomed to bad centers that we don't see the reality. Evans is a 4th center at best and not the type of hard player of a 4th line who plays with grit and sandpaper. And I think there are better 3rd line centers in the league. In Montreal (and Canada), we are accustomed with mediocre results, the bar gets lower and lower every day.

Yep. Evans is playing well because he’s where he’s supposed to be.

Yeah, but you keep asking the question looking for a different answer.

My question is rhetorical. The answer is we don’t have a legit replacement there. We tried Evans with Caufield and it was a waste of time.

I just think putting Evans into the wrong chair is only creating more problems than it solves.

 

[Deebs]

Evans is 28. He's playing good this year, after 3 years of mediocre results. Evans is not amazingy, he looks good if we compare with the mediocre centers like Dvorak and Dach. Not a good idea to be fooled, thinking he is that good. If I was the GM I would not sign him. I think like Snake Boivert on this. He's gonna get signed 3M a year for the next 4 years. Bad idea. He's gonna take the spot of a young center, he's gonna get injured and he will drop drasticly when he'll be 30. We will regret his last 2 years of contract.

We are so accustomed to bad centers that we don't see the reality. Evans is a 4th center at best and not the type of hard player of a 4th line who plays with grit and sandpaper. And I think there are better 3rd line centers in the league. In Montreal (and Canada), we are accustomed with mediocre results, the bar gets lower and lower every day.

Evans is a very good checking Center, that's be proven for the past couple of years.

You say he'll take the spot of a young Center, so who currently in our pool of players is going to take his ideal spot, which is #4C? Beck looks to be #3C. Hage is too offensively gifted to be put into that role and he's still 2 years away at minimum. I'm just curious who you have in mind.

If Jake goes to management and asks for the moon, you move him. If he's not being super greedy, I think he's someone who could be kept around.

 

[Goalfield13]

Yep. Evans is playing well because he’s where he’s supposed to be.

My question is rhetorical. The answer is we don’t have a legit replacement there. We tried Evans with Caufield and it was a waste of time.

I just think putting Evans into the wrong chair is only creating more problems than it solves.

Dach doesn't even deserve to be in the building let alone a chair right now.

 

[Naslundforever]

I told you why I hate that idea.

I also have Evans there and some vet this summe/deadline as a gap before Hage (and whoever).

 

[Habby4Life]

The more TOI you give to Evans the least sense it will make to sign him. If the plan is to trade him for the highest possible pick then yeah give him the 2nd line. If the plan is to extend him then keep him in a bottom 6 role.

Who knows but if he hits FA he will get paid and get term. The guy has steadily improved and works really hard. Hope they sign but Jake has all the cards.

Dach doesn't even deserve to be in the building let alone a chair right now.

Dach deserves a chair in popcorn row. The leash MSL is giving him is crazy.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

From a sport psychology perspective, would it really be wrong to have sit for two or three games, or demote him to the 4th like for a few weeks?

Tell him he's a good player, but he needs to take a step back.

I think timing made more sense when he wasn't showing the occasional flash.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I agree with your first half.

Your second contradicts the 1st in that hockey is meant as entertainment but assumes somehow watching Dach is entertaining? Or watching him smother any life from anyone on his line quite consistantly? That there is no point?

Playing him away from the team’s scorers improves the product and helps actual difference makers; it’s not just about him getting good (for me anyway). No magic expected here.

I agree it's not entertaining to watch a player like him at the moment. Evans deserve that 2c spot today. If that happens, that's because there is no better options. What worries me is the long term, how Dach will improve and what is the best condition for him. Because Dach have much more potential than Evans. I still beleive it's a matter of time with Dach, I didn't trow the towel.

If by late february he didn't showed signs of improvement, then the gm could decide to trade him or do whatever he think is the best. Maybe send him to Laval at this point. But we are in december and still lot of games to come. I'm sure the second floor is thinking all the options. Acquiring a real center in a trade or target a center ufa next summer.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dach doesn't even deserve to be in the building let alone a chair right now.

You’re right. But there’s a reason for that.

And this is a transition year anyway. So unless there’s a legit person to put in there (and there isn’t) then I’d say, just let him play there and work on his game.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Evans is a very good checking Center, that's be proven for the past couple of years.

You say he'll take the spot of a young Center, so who currently in our pool of players is going to take his ideal spot, which is #4C? Beck looks to be #3C. Hage is too offensively gifted to be put into that role and he's still 2 years away at minimum. I'm just curious who you have in mind.

If Jake goes to management and asks for the moon, you move him. If he's not being super greedy, I think he's someone who could be kept around.

He's ok in the checking role in PK or 4th line C. For 2 years. After 2 years I think someone else could fill the spot. I think 2,5 is the maximum for him. What worries me is the 4 years term. 3 years would be better. I don't see him in the contending years, he will be too old and not enough sandpaper. I think we are fooled by the present time and because all the other centers except Suzuki are just bad.

 

[Saundies]

It's the easiest decision to make.. you just keep playing him, coaching him and working with him this year. At the end of the year if his play hasn't come around to an appropriate level; then you send him home for the summer with a clear set of instructions on what he is to improve upon.

If Dach does or doesn't find his form by the end of the year, the calculus doesn't change, this group should be looking for improvements at the center. Whether it's finding a better 2C than Dach or a better 1C than Suzuki.

If you find an improvement or Dach comes in with the mindset and play to securely claim one of those spots, he is still an RFA after his contract ends NEXT YEAR, so you'll have plenty of runway to see if he's a top 6 fixture, or a guy in your middle 6, who will still provide value through his size, skill and ability to play wing or center. His cost for extension would remain very low.

He is not blocking a single internal option this year.
There is not a single external option that is a viable option right now and if there was, if he was playing well or not, it makes no difference, they should be looking at whether the acquisition cost makes sense.

Cutting losses with Dach right now is the singularly most stupid conclusion anyone can draw. You won't get what you paid to get him. You would be panicking far too early after a major injury especially in the context of a team that has several players not delivering to a previously established level.

You can only lose moving on from Dach prematurely.

We're pretty much on the same page in giving him the rest of the year while still attempting to find options for a 1, 2C. We suck again and there's no options he's currently blocking.

The problem becomes if they pencil him into the spot for next year as well and he plays the exact same way. I get that we're rebuilding, he's a younger player, etc. But the team expected and wanted to take a step this year, let alone next year. I don't know if they should do this.

There's a fine line with giving a guy some time to get back and find himself and letting the sunk cost fallacy win. You even mention something like that in your post with the line about "not getting what you paid to get him." At some point, you have to forget about that and realize a mistake was made (if it was indeed a mistake) and correct it.

 

[Benstheman]

If there is a time and place where a player have great opportunity to regain his confidence after suffering an important injury is right now in a Habs jersey cause we are in the middle of a rebuild.

Team invested a lot in this player and for now there is no other options. He is not blocking other prospect or young player opportunities. So why the f*** would we get rid of him while is value is at an all time low.

 

[Goalfield13]

You’re right. But there’s a reason for that.

And this is a transition year anyway. So unless there’s a legit person to put in there (and there isn’t) then I’d say, just let him play there and work on his game.

Transition year... it's a terrible message to send to the team coddling a player by giving him a spot he doesn't deserve.

 

[Trabdy2]

If Dach's play doesn't change meaningfully by the TDL, management needs to really start focusing on a getting a top 6 C for going into next year.

It's a glaring hole right now. Suzuki and Evans have their roles at C (Evans we gotta keep imo), but Dvorak is gone and if Dach ain't it at C then we have two C holes to fill. One might be filled by Beck in the bottom six for next season.

 

[WeThreeKings]

We're pretty much on the same page in giving him the rest of the year while still attempting to find options for a 1, 2C. We suck again and there's no options he's currently blocking.

The problem becomes if they pencil him into the spot for next year as well and he plays the exact same way. I get that we're rebuilding, he's a younger player, etc. But the team expected and wanted to take a step this year, let alone next year. I don't know if they should do this.

There's a fine line with giving a guy some time to get back and find himself and letting the sunk cost fallacy win. You even mention something like that in your post with the line about "not getting what you paid to get him." At some point, you have to forget about that and realize a mistake was made (if it was indeed a mistake) and correct it.

But what is correcting it? Dumping him for a 4th round pick isn't correcting a mistake. You are still going to have value with someone like Kirby getting paid at his current rate, being a 3rd line winger who can rotate into center or flex into the top 6 as needed based on the skills he has.

There isn't a situation where just getting rid of Dach for a small return is better than just keeping him in house.

Transition year... it's a terrible message to send to the team coddling a player by giving him a spot he doesn't deserve.

It's a tightly knit group that know what he is coming back from; I don't think them giving Dach opportunities to find his game back is anywhere close to bad messaging when you consider games from Matheson and Dvorak where they were openly helping the other team score goals and got promoted in those games.

If Dach's play doesn't change meaningfully by the TDL, management needs to really start focusing on a getting a top 6 C for going into next year.

It's a glaring hole right now. Suzuki and Evans have their roles at C (Evans we gotta keep imo), but Dvorak is gone and if Dach ain't it at C then we have two C holes to fill. One might be filled by Beck in the bottom six for next season.

Even if it does change meaningfully, they should be focusing on it anyway.

Whether it's improving on Dach or Suzuki, they should not be satisfied with the center position even if both were hitting at the tops of their potentials. If there's an improvement to be made, make it.

 

[JianYang]

I can't beleive the amount of writing and pages for Dach. He's taking way too much time to recover mentally and come back in better physical and psychological condition. And everybody here discuss about him like if it was an emergency. First of all, hockey is an entertainment, secondly Dach is an human with his weakness so we can't expect him to get back to his better hockey by magic. He's not a robot with a switch that can be turned on.

The only think to be done is patience. Wait and wait. Wait that he become a better player or wait that he is traded. Sure he can be demoted to the 4th line or sit in the press box a few games but what's the point? You guys think it will work like magic? No it won't. It will be just spending time, a distraction for a few days.

Well, I wouldn't think about scratching unless there is an effort issue. I don't watch day to day like I used to so I can't comment too much if that's the case.

But if that's an issue and he is scratched, why is it assumed that it definitely won't help? For starters, it might be a wake up call that he needs. Secondly, it send a message to the rest of the club that a consistent effort is non negotiable.

The other thing to consider is dach's personality. Good coaches are good managers of people and know which buttons to push in order to get the most out of them, and the buttons will be different for each player. Whether those buttons for dach include a scratch when he's not performing, I would need to know as a human being alot better than I do now.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Heineman-Dach-Gallagher is the line I would try, force him to go back to basics and hopefully he will score some greasy points or muck it up with Gallagher and at least be involved that way

Laine-Suzuki-Caufield
Slafkovsky-Evans-Anderson
Heineman-Dach-Gallagher
Newhook-Dvorak-Armia