Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[The Real Timo]

He was all but unanimously praised in his first year on this board

It was then. This is now. What are we supposed to do? Praise him for being lazy and careless and getting undeserved opportunities?

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

At least he taught that undersized rookie in his 5th game a lesson

 

[ReHabs]

Exactly. He's an easy whipping boy though. His whole game is off, but at some point he'll get comfortable and be back to what we saw until the injury.

An NHL player shouldn’t need all of pre-season and 20+ games to look like an NHL player.

The pressure he’s under must be difficult but that’s why he’s in the NHL. If he can’t hack it, he won’t be here long.

 

[ryan callahan]

Dach has been brutal since the start of the season, but this is obviously not the real Dach. He was a million times better with the habs before his injury and he wasn't close to being this bad with Chicago. So the idea of trading Dach is dumb. He's not going to stay bad forever.

Funny how the discourse is different when you speak about other players. Dach has showed repeatedly that he is not a top 6 player on an NHL contending team. Continuing to believe that it will magically happen is laughable especially when he has showed no signs of getting better.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Like no one has ever came back stale from a season ending injury before lol.

Sure. Some players don’t. But plenty do. Christ just look at Caufield last year. People were saying the most idiotic stuff about him last year COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that maybe his surgery had a some issue on him.

You would think that after seeing CC look back to his old self and even better, people would be like ‘hmmm….maybe I should wait on Dach a bit’ lol

This is the most embarrassing thread yet. The level of vitriol is silly.

It was then. This is now. What are we supposed to do? Praise him for being lazy and careless and getting undeserved opportunities?

Who’s saying praise him?!? lol. It’s either praise or trade immediately?!?

You guys jesus lol. If he comes back how do you even take yourselves seriously after? Is it just ‘mmm…crow’s delicious!’?

Whatever lol. Lose your minds if you want lol

 

[ryan callahan]

Like no one has ever came back stale from a season ending injury before lol.

Sure. Some players don’t. But plenty do. Christ just look at Caufield last year. People were saying the most idiotic stuff about him last year COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that maybe his surgery had a some issue on him.

You would think that after seeing CC look back to his old self and even better, people would be like ‘hmmm….maybe I should wait on Dach a bit’ lol

This is the most embarrassing thread yet. The level of vitriol is silly.


Who’s saying praise him?!? lol. It’s either praise or trade immediately?!?

You guys jesus lol. If he comes back how do you even take yourselves seriously after? Is it just ‘mmm…crow’s delicious!’?

Whatever lol. Lose your minds if you want lol

Cole Caufield, despite his shooting problems, was still a positive 5v5 player on a horrible team last year. To boot, he's always showcased positive emotions and body language during his career, even during the Ducharme ice cold stretch. Dach has been disgustingly bad at 5v5, has showcased bad body language and doesn't feel like playing physical nearly ever.

 

[Andrei79]

An NHL player shouldn’t need all of pre-season and 20+ games to look like an NHL player.

The pressure he’s under must be difficult but that’s why he’s in the NHL. If he can’t hack it, he won’t be here long.

Monahan, an established NHLer, looked brutal coming back from injury. Thankfully Hughes didn't adopt this ridiculous mindset and acquired him, getting us two first rounders in the process.

 

[The Real Timo]

Monahan, an established NHLer, looked brutal coming back from injury. Thankfully Hughes didn't adopt this ridiculous mindset and acquired him, getting us two first rounders in the process.

If we could get our first round pick back for Dach I'll be over the moon. Bet nobody's offering though.

 

[Habby4Life]

Monahan, an established NHLer, looked brutal coming back from injury. Thankfully Hughes didn't adopt this ridiculous mindset and acquired him, getting us two first rounders in the process.

Coming back from an injury shouldn’t impact compete level. Too often he looks uninterested and doesn’t battle.

The difference between the two is night and day.

 

[ReHabs]

Monahan, an established NHLer, looked brutal coming back from injury. Thankfully Hughes didn't adopt this ridiculous mindset and acquired him, getting us two first rounders in the process.

Calgary paid the Habs to take Monahan as a cap dump.

You’re comparing Dach to that? And you think this is favourable to Dach?

 

[ryan callahan]

Monahan, an established NHLer, looked brutal coming back from injury. Thankfully Hughes didn't adopt this ridiculous mindset and acquired him, getting us two first rounders in the process.

Monahan, despite his skating shortcomings, never looked like he was pouting or selling the team at even strength. Dach's issues are mostly attitude related, and he hasn't earned being a diva yet with his substandard performances.

 

[Andrei79]

Calgary paid the Habs to take Monahan as a cap dump.

You’re comparing Dach to that? And you think this is favourable to Dach?

What I'm comparing is how significantly an injury can affect a player coming back. Monahan looked a lot better the year after. Dach's confidence is clearly down the drain and he's not skating with the same grace. It'll take time unfortunately, but it would be I'll advised to give up on him when there's a clear explanation to his struggles.

I remember saying the same thing regarding Caufield last year and it seems insane to me that people never learn.

Monahan, despite his skating shortcomings, never looked like he was pouting or selling the team at even strength. Dach's issues are mostly attitude related, and he hasn't earned being a diva yet with his substandard performances.

Plays well with Chicago, gets seriously injured, plays bad for a season, gets traded, plays well for us, gets seriously injured, plays bad.

I really wonder what might be the issue.

 

[VT]

Maybe it is time to move him to the 4th round.

Caufield - Suzuki - Newhook (a speed line)
Slafkovský (6'3"/225) - Laine 6'5"/208) - Anderson (6'3"/226)
Heineman - Evans - Gallagher
Dach - Dvorak - Armia

Although that's just my suggestion, that's how they would handle it in Columbus. Do you want to play in TOP 6/TOP 9? Prove you have what it takes. You have some games to find your play (if a player was injured). If not, hello the 4th line. Of course not HS in his course.

 

[ryan callahan]

What I'm comparing is how significantly an injury can affect a player coming back. Monahan looked a lot better the year after. Dach's confidence is clearly down the drain and he's not skating with the same grace. It'll take time unfortunately, but it would be I'll advised to give up on him when there's a clear explanation to his struggles.

I remember saying the same thing regarding Caufield last year and it seems insane to me that people never learn.



Plays well with Chicago, gets seriously injured, plays bad for a season, gets traded, plays well for us, gets seriously injured, plays bad.

I really wonder what might be the issue.

"Played well". He was mostly average. Cmon man you gotta have higher standards than a 54 pt pace with an average 5v5 output with extremely favorable usage and zone starts.

 

[ReHabs]

What I'm comparing is how significantly an injury can affect a player coming back. Monahan looked a lot better the year after. Dach's confidence is clearly down the drain and he's not skating with the same grace. It'll take time unfortunately, but it would be I'll advised to give up on him when there's a clear explanation to his struggles.

Now take into account all that Monahan had on his CV in Calgary: leadership, good attitude, great reputation, great performances, loved by the fans

And they still paid to get rid of him.

What does that tell you about Dach? Compared to Monahan he comes short in every way. His CV is practically empty.

I remember saying the same thing regarding Caufield last year and it seems insane to me that people never learn.

Caufield underperformed last year but he wasn’t labelled as dogging it or giving bad efforts every damn game.

I think your comparison reveals a problem in your view of Dach: you assume he’s established and thus it’s only a matter of time before the “real” Dach is back. He’s not established and his scant CV doesn’t allow him (much less his organization and teammates) to assume good times are around the corner.

Obviously the Habs believed in his upside. I hope he gets there but it doesn’t seem like a good omen if even his fans compare him to fkn Monahan.

Plays well with Chicago, gets seriously injured, plays bad for a season, gets traded, plays well for us, gets seriously injured, plays bad.

I really wonder what might be the issue.

The issue is how you glaze over “plays well” and “gets traded”. No organization want to lose on Dach’s promise — so why are you overlooking Dach’s role in his getting traded by CHI?

 

[The Great Weal]

What I'm comparing is how significantly an injury can affect a player coming back. Monahan looked a lot better the year after. Dach's confidence is clearly down the drain and he's not skating with the same grace. It'll take time unfortunately, but it would be I'll advised to give up on him when there's a clear explanation to his struggles.

I remember saying the same thing regarding Caufield last year and it seems insane to me that people never learn.

I don't understand the Monahan comparison. Whether or not Monahan would have been good wasn't the point of that trade, we utilized cap space to get a 1st rounder. He could have been the worst player in NHL history and we still make that trade everyday of the week. I don't think there was due diligence scouting and gambling to take him on, it was always a win move for us.

As for Caufield, the goalscoring wasn't good enough but the rest of his game was just as good if not better than normal. He didn't not look like an NHLer over 25% of the season.

Other guys with the same injury as Dach include Svechnikov and Hertl who were actually playing well and didn't look like a non NHLer the following season.

 

[Andrei79]

"Played well". He was mostly average. Cmon man you gotta have higher standards than a 54 pt pace with an average 5v5 output with extremely favorable usage and zone starts.

Ridiculous.

Now take into account all that Monahan had on his CV in Calgary: leadership, good attitude, great reputation, great performances, loved by the fans

And they still paid to get rid of him.

What does that tell you about Dach? Compared to Monahan he comes short in every way. His CV is practically empty.

Caufield underperformed last year but he wasn’t labelled as dogging it or giving bad efforts every damn game.

I think your comparison reveals a problem in your view of Dach: you assume he’s established and thus it’s only a matter of time before the “real” Dach is back. He’s not established and his scant CV doesn’t allow him (much less his organization and teammates) to assume good times are around the corner.

Obviously the Habs believed in his upside. I hope he gets there but it doesn’t seem like a good omen if even his fans compare him to fkn Monahan.

The issue is how you glaze over “plays well” and “gets traded”. No organization want to lose on Dach’s promise — so why are you overlooking Dach’s role in his getting traded by CHI?

Caufield was absolutely criticised of dogging it, I don't know what you're talking about there. I don't glaze over anything. The seasons where Dach was criticized were the seasons where he was coming back from injury. The Blackhawks also let go of Strome, they had new management and decided to tank that year. When I'm comparing Dach to Monahan and Caufield, I'm giving comparisons to other players who struggled after injury, it's a really simple notion that somehow escapes some every year. If he's still at the same point next year, then the issue isn't the injury, but like Caufield, there's a clear reason why he might be struggling.

I don't understand the Monahan comparison. Whether or not Monahan would have been good wasn't the point of that trade, we utilized cap space to get a 1st rounder. He could have been the worst player in NHL history and we still make that trade everyday of the week. I don't think there was due diligence scouting and gambling to take him on, it was always a win move for us.

As for Caufield, the goalscoring wasn't good enough but the rest of his game was just as good if not better than normal. He didn't not look like an NHLer over 25% of the season.

Other guys with the same injury as Dach include Svechnikov and Hertl who were actually playing well and didn't look like a non NHLer the following season.

Mohanan gets injured. Struggles for a year. Plays well after. It's simple. Svechnikov produced on a great team but looked like shit for a good while last year btw. He would have been torn apart here, especially on a shit team with no one to cover for him. I'm pretty sure we were having the same arguments around Caufield last year btw.

 

[ryan callahan]

Ridiculous.



Caufield was absolutely criticised of dogging it, I don't know what you're talking about there. I don't glaze over anything. The seasons where Dach was criticized were the seasons where he was coming back from injury. The Blackhawks also let go of Strome, they had new management and decided to tank that year. When I'm comparing Dach to Monahan and Caufield, I'm giving comparisons to other players who struggled after injury, it's a really simple notion that somehow escapes some every year. If he's still at the same point next year, then the issue isn't the injury, but like Caufield, there's a clear reason why he might be struggling.

Can't just swivel your way out of a argument by uttering a useless platitude. When you have to write a novel book to defend the player maybe he just wasn't that good all along.

Also the Caufield struggling last year argument is absolutely made up. Despite his finishing struggling he was our best or second best player last year

 

[Andrei79]

Can't just swivel your way out of a argument by uttering a useless platitude. When you have to write a novel book to defend the player maybe he just wasn't that good all along.

That you can't even say he played well before the injury means there's nothing to argue, it's just a ridiculous POV that isn't worth anyone's time. If you also find that my 10 sentence responses are novels, then you have issues beyond just that ridiculous post. I don't mind debating with you, but not even admitting he played well is disingenuous.

 

[ryan callahan]

That you can't even say he played well before the injury means there's nothing to argue, it's just a ridiculous POV that isn't worth anyone's time. If you also find that my 10 sentence responses are novels, then you have issues beyond just that ridiculous post.

OK agree to disagree and keep insulting posters because they don't share your point of view, especially when that poster brought up data to back up his point, while you have showed no effort to do the same. I really wonder why you like Dach so much eh.

 

[The Great Weal]

Mohanan gets injured. Struggles for a year. Plays well after. It's simple. Svechnikov produced on a great team but looked like shit for a good while last year btw.

Didn't Monahan admittedly play through injuries when he shouldn't have? I actually think there's more context than you believe. Hughes saw an opporutnity to get a 1st rounder regardless of Monahan's play. If he plays great then awesome, if not then still awesome because we got paid to take him on as opposed to seeking for him to be a key addition to the team.

I sure hope Dach plays shitty enough that he produces 52 points in 59 games like Svechnikov. The irony that Svech produced on a great team as if it's a bad thing when the bulk of Dach's success is riding the coattails of Suzuki and Caufield also needs to be pointed out.

Why no mention of Hertl?

 

[cave troll]

Monahan, an established NHLer, looked brutal coming back from injury. Thankfully Hughes didn't adopt this ridiculous mindset and acquired him, getting us two first rounders in the process.

Monahan was and still is twice the player Dach is. He made an impact the moment he joined NHL and only a endless streak of hard injuries stopped him form becoming PPG player every season, while Dach is falling deep into the category called bust.

 

[Andrei79]

Didn't Monahan admittedly play through injuries when he shouldn't have? I actually think there's more context than you believe. Hughes saw an opporutnity to get a 1st rounder regardless of Monahan's play. If he plays great then awesome, if not then still awesome because we got paid to take him on as opposed to seeking for him to be a key addition to the team.

I sure hope Dach plays shitty enough that he produces 52 points in 59 games like Svechnikov. The irony that Svech produced on a great team as if it's a bad thing when the bulk of Dach's success is riding the coattails of Suzuki and Caufield also needs to be pointed out.

Why no mention of Hertl?

Svechnikov had 1 goal until being shutdown for two weeks in early December. He looked like shit and was leeching assists off his linemates. He would have been torn apart here by the usual crowd.

Why mention Hertl ? Did I say that every player coming back from injury will struggle ? No, I said it happens. We were having the same arguments regarding Caufield last year. It's not like he's played like this since being traded or that he just struggled after playing a full season last year. He suffered a significant injury as a player who hasn't get established himself and has had confidence issues in the past. Add a disorganized team and it's making it hard to properly evaluate without more time as everything that could go wrong, did.

 

[BozoTheClown]

The argument that Chicago traded Dach along Strome and Debrincat was because they wanted to tank, doesn’t hold any water.
When traded, Dach was coming off a 26 points in 70 games with a face off % of 32%.
Those aren’t stats telling me is was going to affect the tank.

What it does told me is that Chicago realized the guy wasn’t a consume professional willing to work on his craft to get better. So they got rid of a 6’4” 220 lbs 3years removed from being a 3 overall pick.

Until proven otherwise, this is my conclusion.

 

[The Great Weal]

Svechnikov had 1 goal until being shutdown for two weeks in early December. He looked like shit and was leeching assists off his linemates. He would have been torn apart here by the usual crowd.

Lol come on man they aren't even comparable. In the sample size you're using Svech was a 2nd liner not scoring many goals. Dach doesn't even look like an NHLer. In 23 games Svech went to becoming a top line forward with his 23 points while Dach still stinks. Some people are doing carthweels because he wasn't a minus for the first time and hit a couple of guys which is considered a good game for some reason. It's hard to see how one of two actual offensive threats on the Canes in those 23 games is leeching assists off his linemates. Admittedly I didn't watch him for all 23 games but it just doesn't add up. Maybe for a very brief stint which to your own standards should be extremely hypocritical since it's less than what you're allowing for Dach. I did however watch Dach who was leeching off of Suzuki and Caufield in his successful season at a 53 point pace.

Why mention Hertl ?

Because you mentioned Monahan for some reason. Hertl had the same injury as Dach.

Did I say that every player coming back from injury will struggle ? No, I said it happens. We were having the same arguments regarding Caufield last year. It's not like he's played like this since being traded or that he just struggled after playing a full season last year. He suffered a significant injury as a player who hasn't get established himself and has had confidence issues in the past. Add a disorganized team and it's making it hard to properly evaluate without more time as everything that could go wrong, did.

But as I said, with Caufield he was still doing other things. Yeah he wasn't scoring goals which was annoying, but his compete, defensive game, and playmaking were a million times stronger than Dach's so far this season. Caufield going from a 1st liner to looking like a 2nd liner is nowhere near the same as Dach going from a 2nd liner to a healthy scratch-caliber player.