Player Discussion Kirby Dach (Part 3): TabarDach Edition!

[Naslundforever]

Right Anderson had no issue with engagement or output last year

I never thought Anderson’s engagement looked down; he just played really badly and looked so confused (going by eye test obviously who the f knows how guys feel)…

It took like 20 games before we even saw Dach framed on tv on a sequence this year and immediately on here he’s back and playing so well while Anderson is rocking it but getting called a Donkey. There’s a strong bias for this kid I have trouble explaining. I think if habs land a real 2C no-one will care anymore and he can come back on a proper schedule and beat someone for a spot, not false hope dragging the team down.

Dach and habs have everything to gain, just any reliance makes me cringe..

 

[Rapala]

The negatives for pulled goalies has been throughout the year. Hutson's plus minus at whatever strength has improved throughout the year because he DID get burned more at the start of the year and has improved over the course of 73 games. The 5v5, even strength whatever you like all show the same thing.

With Dach we can take your 5v5 numbers if you like because his minus gets less bad, but so does the minus of many other players. Relative to his teammates, his stats are still an abomination.

I'm honestly just not sure what you are trying to convince me. You seem to be telling me that Dach's defence is fine ... provided he generates more offence than Suzuki. If that is the argument then I guess you have me convinced. Sure. It is fine that Dach is leaking goals at a furious rate. He just needs to be the top offensive generator on the team and he can break even.

If you are trying to convince me that Dach still has potential, I already agree, but as you know, I think he needs to get his defensive game in order so that there is less pressure to produce. He is not a good candidate to start at 2C.

Hutson did take more chances at the start of the year and DID get burned because of it. He cleaned up his defensive game and it made him more effective at 5v5.

Here is a graph with the data you pointed to.View attachment 1004186

It shows GF-GA (5v5!!!!) over each game of the season for Suzuki, Hutson and Dach

Suzuki is steady Eddie, methodically outplaying his opposition and ending clearly to the plus at this point.

Dach is also steady Eddie, methodically being outplayed at a rate of about 2x the amount that Suzuki can keep up with.

Hutson starts the year slowly trending negative at 5v5. At around game 33 (right after christmas) that trend reverses. There is a peak and there is another reversal to the positive right around the 4 Nations. Sure looks like he might have cleaned up some early season warts.

I think that's what turned the Hawks off him. We saw far too much floating indecision and even lackadaisical play in his case which gets totally magnified when there is no production to help off set it. My biggest fear is Dach will always be susceptible to injury when his is pushing his game and his frame.
The line was terrible when they had both Laine and Dach struggling for pace and they've been much better at treading water since he went down.
This includes the games using Beck and Roy.

 

[sampollock]

no word on this guy at all... ???

 

[Scriptor]

no word on this guy at all... ???

Hopefully, no word on this guy after the offseason either.

 

[Walksss]

It is absolutely critical this guy has a much better summer than he did last year. If he comes to camp out of shape and not ready to play he's really hurting his future outlook.

I was really disappointed that with all the time off he had last year it doesn't seem he worked on any individual skills. He has a muffin of a shot, so you have a 6 month opportunity to get into it with somebody like Dr. Shot, and yet he shows up for the year with the same muffin shot. He sucks at faceoffs? Well why don't you spend some serious hours with a Bureau-type? Nope, he comes into the year still getting caved in on faceoffs. Do the work man.

Hopefully watching the team move on without him a second year in a row will inspire him. Hopefully watching a spark plug with otherworldly work ethic like Lane Hutson will inspire him. A Kirby Dach that has put in some serious work is a potentially very dangerous player and a great asset for the team. The other Kirby Dach with the fat face is unlikely to play for this team much longer.

 

[Unclewhalebone]

No I've never said Dach has to reach Suzuki's offence, not sure where you even got that. This discussion has never been about claiming Dach is amazing. It's been about which is the bigger need, the 2C or adding a high end D.

You can scoff at Laine-Dach on a line together being a defensive mess but when looking at GA/60 before and after Laine came back, we see Dach was better by about half a goal against per 60 minute. Now the caveat there is that a few weeks after Laine came back we also added Carrier so it's impossible to tell how much is Laine vs Carrier, but either way it points towards adding a D over a C as the better option (Assuming we can't do both).

No you never said that Dach needed Suzuki's offence, but I did. I was trying to show that at "current" rate of defensive production, Dach would need to drive offense like Suzuki to break even. I doubt he will ever have the offensive production of Suzuki so by default his defensive production must improve. It is clear that for Dach to help the team he needs to improve both, and I don't think the 2C position on next years Habs is the place to do it.
As for Laine, I have no doubt that his presence was a hindrance to Dach's defensive production. Newhook also has been pretty futile at defending as well this year. If anything this is MORE reason to require a proven 2C who is able to play at both ends. There is a pretty good chance that the second line will have at least one of, and probably two of Demidov (raw rookie) and Laine. (Possibly Newhook). That is going to need strong support at center.
I feel like our difference of opinion has probably run its course, but I still contend that at any given "cost to acquire" level, a 2C will make a bigger impact on winning at this point than a D. I certainly hope there is a will to improve at both positions. My hope would be that one of the positions is filled by a UFA such that no assets (except Cap) are spent, while the "focus" position may require spending other capital.
If we end up going and getting a 1RD and our 2nd line remains status quo, I will be hoping you are right, but I will be pretty nervous about it because I think that is a recipe filled with undue risk.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It is absolutely critical this guy has a much better summer than he did last year. If he comes to camp out of shape and not ready to play he's really hurting his future outlook.

I was really disappointed that with all the time off he had last year it doesn't seem he worked on any individual skills. He has a muffin of a shot, so you have a 6 month opportunity to get into it with somebody like Dr. Shot, and yet he shows up for the year with the same muffin shot. He sucks at faceoffs? Well why don't you spend some serious hours with a Bureau-type? Nope, he comes into the year still getting caved in on faceoffs. Do the work man.

Hopefully watching the team move on without him a second year in a row will inspire him. Hopefully watching a spark plug with otherworldly work ethic like Lane Hutson will inspire him. A Kirby Dach that has put in some serious work is a potentially very dangerous player and a great asset for the team. The other Kirby Dach with the fat face is unlikely to play for this team much longer.

When he found his game he was scoring at a pretty good clip.

Keep in mind man, his injury was devastating. The physio he was put through was gruelling. It's bad enough just trying to come back from that....

It's a shame man. It was such a fluke injury and now it looks like it's going to end his career. I hope he can come back but he's missed so much development time and that knee is just such a huge liability. And he already had wrist issues earlier on...

 

[Unclewhalebone]

I think that's what turned the Hawks off him. We saw far too much floating indecision and even lackadaisical play in his case which gets totally magnified when there is no production to help off set it. My biggest fear is Dach will always be susceptible to injury when his is pushing his game and his frame.
The line was terrible when they had both Laine and Dach struggling for pace and they've been much better at treading water since he went down.
This includes the games using Beck and Roy.

To me, beyond the obvious injury trouble is the fact that there was really no solid internal competition for the role Dach was to fill. Some of that lies on Dvorak for not stepping up and taking back a lucrative role from a struggling young player. Some of that lies on management. Dach represented that first prized acquisition and they gave him as many opportunities as possible. What is done is done at this point though. Today, we cant count on Dach for a particular role; this is due to both demonstrated play and injuries. I'm sure he has potential still, but it needs to be realized before we can count on him.

 

[Sorinth]

A really good 2-way center with a scoring touch could transform our team if he meshes well with 2 of our wingers. A good offense is the best defense. Also, still hoping that Reinbacher makes a full recovery and joins our team out of camp.

A high end PMD with size would also transform the team and would help with the whole offence is the best defence too.

 

[Sorinth]

No you never said that Dach needed Suzuki's offence, but I did. I was trying to show that at "current" rate of defensive production, Dach would need to drive offense like Suzuki to break even. I doubt he will ever have the offensive production of Suzuki so by default his defensive production must improve. It is clear that for Dach to help the team he needs to improve both, and I don't think the 2C position on next years Habs is the place to do it.
As for Laine, I have no doubt that his presence was a hindrance to Dach's defensive production. Newhook also has been pretty futile at defending as well this year. If anything this is MORE reason to require a proven 2C who is able to play at both ends. There is a pretty good chance that the second line will have at least one of, and probably two of Demidov (raw rookie) and Laine. (Possibly Newhook). That is going to need strong support at center.
I feel like our difference of opinion has probably run its course, but I still contend that at any given "cost to acquire" level, a 2C will make a bigger impact on winning at this point than a D. I certainly hope there is a will to improve at both positions. My hope would be that one of the positions is filled by a UFA such that no assets (except Cap) are spent, while the "focus" position may require spending other capital.
If we end up going and getting a 1RD and our 2nd line remains status quo, I will be hoping you are right, but I will be pretty nervous about it because I think that is a recipe filled with undue risk.

Agree that it's about that time to agree to disagree, but I'll just say Dach's defensive play was already improving as the season went along. And if you really think Laine was a hindrance to that, then that means Carrier's impact was likely huge, so getting a D whose better then him would have an even bigger impact and a D wouldn't just help the 2nd line cut down on their GAs they would help every line reduce their GAs.

 

[themilosh]

I think Kirby is one of the few guys who spent an entire season (or two) studying game tape and losing IQ in the process.. Chicago knew. He's as dumb as they come.

 

[Naslundforever]

Right Anderson had no issue with engagement or output last year

Not remotely close to what I wrote but ok.

Tldr for you: Anderson played bad, despite looking engaged. Is a positive contributor this year.

Dach looks disengaged. Maybe he’s just a Tim Wallach type.

 

[ExReHabs]

I'm convinced CHI cut Dach loose because they didn't appreciate his effort in rehab and afterward. His post-injury season (his last one in CHI) was brutal and his efforts inexcusable (-- according to CHI fans).

Guess what? We see the same again this year. It's ironic that his career is at risk specifically because he re-injured the injury he seems to have not rehabbed with sufficient effort.

He had from Nov 2023 to Sept 2024 to rehab and heal and prepare for the season. He looked AWFUL for 30ish games to start the season and less awful for other 27 games (though he was not good in his last games before breaking down, either).

Now we have to hope he will rehab, heal, and prepare from March 2025 to Sept 2025 better than he did before. I feel for him on a human level and I'm disappointed for him athletically -- I hope there's a happier ending than currently appears.

 

[Unclewhalebone]

Agree that it's about that time to agree to disagree, but I'll just say Dach's defensive play was already improving as the season went along. And if you really think Laine was a hindrance to that, then that means Carrier's impact was likely huge, so getting a D whose better then him would have an even bigger impact and a D wouldn't just help the 2nd line cut down on their GAs they would help every line reduce their GAs.

I like Carrier but I think that his impact may be as much a result of getting Guhle back onto his strong side, and putting everyone in a better chair. The team also got a significant psychological boost from Laine coming in and blasting goal after goal on the PP. It was madness and I'm sure it gave every player in the lineup a boost in confidence. Laine has proven to be a sword that is very sharp on both edges - he is a top notch weapon on the powerplay that has given us a boost in many games, but his even strength play is a pretty obvious liability.

It is too bad that Dach got hurt because we would have seen whether he could make some progress. tough to judge anyone on short seasons, and tough to learn from the sidelines.

 

[Victoire HuGo]

Not remotely close to what I wrote but ok.

Tldr for you: Anderson played bad, despite looking engaged. Is a positive contributor this year.

Dach looks disengaged. Maybe he’s just a Tim Wallach type.

You have selective memory then, Anderson in the second half of the season had checked out last year; under two shots a game compared to 1st half, time ice kept on going down etc).

 

[Naslundforever]

You have selective memory then, Anderson in the second half of the season had checked out last year; under two shots a game compared to 1st half, time ice kept on going down etc).

He sucked and we can agree there. My eye test is because he needed to change his game and not engagement. Hard to tell and it’s completely subjective, isn’t it? No more than I can tell if Dach has given up on himself, it just sure looks like it on the ice. Gotta be a challenge mentally to spend most of your adult life rehabbing.

 

[Ezpz]

I never thought Anderson’s engagement looked down; he just played really badly and looked so confused (going by eye test obviously who the f knows how guys feel)…

It took like 20 games before we even saw Dach framed on tv on a sequence this year and immediately on here he’s back and playing so well while Anderson is rocking it but getting called a Donkey. There’s a strong bias for this kid I have trouble explaining. I think if habs land a real 2C no-one will care anymore and he can come back on a proper schedule and beat someone for a spot, not false hope dragging the team down.

Dach and habs have everything to gain, just any reliance makes me cringe..

There were tons of HFboards members who thought Andy was phoning it in when it was very clear he was putting a full effort out there and was really just making a combination of mental errors
and dumb plays with a large dose of unluckiness. He also started skating slower which is likely more an indicator of injury than phoning it in. If he were 5'8 people would call him a warrior and have every excuse in the book lined up.

 

[Scintillating10]

It is absolutely critical this guy has a much better summer than he did last year. If he comes to camp out of shape and not ready to play he's really hurting his future outlook.

I was really disappointed that with all the time off he had last year it doesn't seem he worked on any individual skills. He has a muffin of a shot, so you have a 6 month opportunity to get into it with somebody like Dr. Shot, and yet he shows up for the year with the same muffin shot. He sucks at faceoffs? Well why don't you spend some serious hours with a Bureau-type? Nope, he comes into the year still getting caved in on faceoffs. Do the work man.

Hopefully watching the team move on without him a second year in a row will inspire him. Hopefully watching a spark plug with otherworldly work ethic like Lane Hutson will inspire him. A Kirby Dach that has put in some serious work is a potentially very dangerous player and a great asset for the team. The other Kirby Dach with the fat face is unlikely to play for this team much longer.

If Dach had of worked out this team be dynamic

 

[gusfring]

no word on this guy at all... ???

Totally crazy. Don't even know what the injury is.