Kingston Frontenacs 2024-25 Season Thread, Part II

[ScoutLife4]

Kingston got shafted in the Wright deal by Seattle. Then it got shafted by Wright.
If, like most Juniors, Wright had played his 8 games and then come back, Kingston might have been a partial contender. However, Wright did not want to come back here, so they kept him in Seattle until the WJC and did not announce what they were doing until the WJC was almost finished and the deadline was approaching.

I am sure every GM put in an offer, but the bottom line was that Wright only wanted to go where Wright wanted to go. That eliminated most teams in the OHL. We can't even be sure Ottawa was on his list because he would not have been the first-line center or player on the team. Morrison had already locked up that position.

Yes, I am aware that there was talk about him coming back, but talk does nothing until the NHL team commits. If he had been available before the deadline started, then it would have been a different story, but by the time Seattle and Wright had pulled the pin, most teams had given up waiting and made the deals they could.

Now it is up to Kory to do what he can with the picks that he has

Would you have wanted to come back and play for Caputi?

 

[beastintheeast]

Would you have wanted to come back and play for Caputi?

LOL, no, but the challenge was that if Seattle had released him earlier, more people would be interested.

Wright would have been the main player being looked at instead of Morrison, for example.

The problem was that Seattle did not make it known until the last minute, and then his agent added to the angst by stating where Wright would play only.


It is like going to buy a TV. If you know in advance, then you can look around for the best deal. But if you go into the store with your kid hanging off your leg screaming, I want that TV, Daddy, and I want it now. The deal gets a little harder to make

 

[ScoutLife4]

LOL, no, but the challenge was that if Seattle had released him earlier, more people would be interested.

Wright would have been the main player being looked at instead of Morrison, for example.

The problem was that Seattle did not make it known until the last minute, and then his agent added to the angst by stating where Wright would play only.


It is like going to buy a TV. If you know in advance, then you can look around for the best deal. But if you go into the store with your kid hanging off your leg screaming, I want that TV, Daddy, and I want it now. The deal gets a little harder to make

Kingston sent Wright to the place he wanted to go as a courtesy to him.
The mistake was not getting enough and then the poor drafting that followed.
They needed Greentree in that trade not Miedema

 

[seanwae]

Kingston sent Wright to the place he wanted to go as a courtesy to him.
The mistake was not getting enough and then the poor drafting that followed.
They needed Greentree in that trade not Miedema

Greentree couldn't be traded at the time, he was a second round pick. Cristoforo was their 1st rounder.

 

[PuckLucker]

Kingston sent Wright to the place he wanted to go as a courtesy to him.
The mistake was not getting enough and then the poor drafting that followed.
They needed Greentree in that trade not Miedema

I would strongly disagree that the Wright trade is the reason the Fronts are in the current situation. In my eyes this will always be a Ownership / GM and Coaching conundrum.

One impact forward doesn't change the fate of a team. If that theory held up, Misa & Martone who lead the league in points and are both on .500 teams right now would propel their teams to the top of the standings.

How has Windsor reversed fate so quickly compared to last season?
Niagara is tops in the East, someone on this board said they wouldn't make playoffs in 2024-2025
Kitchener lost 277 pts parting ways with Rehkopf, Brzustewicz & Sop. Also no Sale, Mesar & Motew
Soo has a very young team, 3 of their top 10 point getters are Rookies & still in a playoff spot

The 4 teams noted above all have starting Goaltenders with a .900 save % or better.

 

[Fischhaber]

I would strongly disagree that the Wright trade is the reason the Fronts are in the current situation. In my eyes this will always be a Ownership / GM and Coaching conundrum.

One impact forward doesn't change the fate of a team. If that theory held up, Misa & Martone who lead the league in points and are both on .500 teams right now would propel their teams to the top of the standings.

How has Windsor reversed fate so quickly compared to last season?
Niagara is tops in the East, someone on this board said they wouldn't make playoffs in 2024-2025
Kitchener lost 277 pts parting ways with Rehkopf, Brzustewicz & Sop. Also no Sale, Mesar & Motew
Soo has a very young team, 3 of their top 10 point getters are Rookies & still in a playoff spot

The 4 teams noted above all have starting Goaltenders with a .900 save % or better.

Hopkins + picks for Gibson + Schenkel (cut Lalonde) makes you guys an elite defensive unit with a high end goalie. Cost is high, but it's the obvious move if they are serious about contending this season.

 

[dirty12]

Hopkins + picks for Gibson + Schenkel (cut Lalonde) makes you guys an elite defensive unit with a high end goalie. Cost is high, but it's the obvious move if they are serious about contending this season.

Maybe keep Schenkel, and trade Cloutier, Allard, Gibson for Hopkins, Heyes, 4-5 picks; or go get yourself an ‘08 with less points than fingers on one hand and some picks.

 

[PuckLucker]

Hopkins + picks for Gibson + Schenkel (cut Lalonde) makes you guys an elite defensive unit with a high end goalie. Cost is high, but it's the obvious move if they are serious about contending this season.

Someone understands the situation and what's needed. That's just what it will cost, you either pony up or shut up.
You can't always do things on the cheap, looking for small bolt-ons to try and fix a bigger issue.

Just go out and pull the trigger, look at all the other teams making moves and we are standing around. Last minute shopping on Dec. 24 hoping to get a great Xmas gift never works out.

Ownership group approved the GM & Coach to go player shopping last year at the deadline when they shouldn't have - that was clear as day. I'm not going to bash players but I feel the Frontanacs are loyal to a fault. Other teams would move or release players if it's not working out as planned.

If they aren't buying, start selling off some big names and stock pile picks. The Fronts have players that other Teams want and we can only keep 3 of the 10 2005 born players next season.

 

[OMG67]

I would strongly disagree that the Wright trade is the reason the Fronts are in the current situation. In my eyes this will always be a Ownership / GM and Coaching conundrum.

One impact forward doesn't change the fate of a team. If that theory held up, Misa & Martone who lead the league in points and are both on .500 teams right now would propel their teams to the top of the standings.

How has Windsor reversed fate so quickly compared to last season?
Niagara is tops in the East, someone on this board said they wouldn't make playoffs in 2024-2025
Kitchener lost 277 pts parting ways with Rehkopf, Brzustewicz & Sop. Also no Sale, Mesar & Motew
Soo has a very young team, 3 of their top 10 point getters are Rookies & still in a playoff spot

The 4 teams noted above all have starting Goaltenders with a .900 save % or better.

This is pretty astute.

Kingston’s ownership does not properly invest in their team. The reality is, some OHL owners aren’t in it for the Championships. It is not their priority. It is an asset and they treat it as a financial instrument. I am reasonably sure Springer uses the franchise for that purpose.

If we take a step back from the hockey aspect and strictly look at it as a financial instrument, the ultimate goal is to retain the franchise and allow it to grow in value while not losing money. Doug Springer bought the team in 1997-98. I am not sure how much he bought it for but I doubt it was much more than around $5mil. I know Jeff Hunt bought the 67’s in 1999 for $10mil so around $5mil for Kingston to save the team from relocation seems about right. The franchise is likely worth somewhere around $25mil now. So, there has been a ~5x multiplier on the franchise value since it was purchased. So, even if the franchise has never made money, it has grown in value.

Theresa re two ways for a team to realize profits. The first, and most commonly thought of way is to increase revenue. But, to increase revenue, you usually need to invest which adds risk. Fro example, to grow sales, you need a good team. To get a good team you need quality scouts, coaches, and management. So, for every dollar you generate in revenue, you pay out a % to costs. But, I think Springer take the alternate approach. Cut costs. Every dollar you save in operating the franchise goes directly back in your pocket. There are no input costs on saving $$$.

So, if you are a team owner that really doesn’t care about winning and the goal is to not lose $$$ and put minimal effort in while allowing the franchise value to organically grow, you have what I believe is the Springer formula.

Kingston has loads of potential. They have a solid population base and a pretty good Metro area catchment population. There is very solid local economy. Disposable income in Kingston is relatively high. There isn’t a lot of direct competition for the Entertainment dollars. IT is generally considered a hockey hotbed with loads of hockey fans.

The problem in Kingston is there is a lot of apathy towards the Frontenacs. I believe that has a lot to do with two things. First, the Frontenacs are a loser franchise. They just NEVER win. After so many decades without any consistent winning and virtually never winning playoff series. The fans have tagged the franchise as a loser and don’t want to support it. And second, they don’t respect the ownership and don’t’ feel they put the franchise first which means they don’t put the people of Kingston first. That’s right. When a community has a sports team, that sports team represents the community. When the Ownership puts every effort into the profile of the team, the community feels like the ownership is working FOR them. You see that in Owen Sound big time. You don’t need to win every year in Owen Sound. That is because the ownership puts the team first, connects the team with the community and gives the community pride of collective ownership. It is part of the fabric of the town. The Frontenacs will never get that with Springer. He doesn’t care. It isn’t what motivates him.

Until there is a sale of the team to an invested owner that truly wants to put their own blood, sweat, and tears into the team, how can you expect the fanbase to also put their blood, sweat, and tears into the team? The two go hand in hand. The Franchises that understand that are successful even if they aren’t always successful in the standings.

 

[dirty12]

Gibson is just not worth Hopkins plus picks; and having to replace Hopkins in the line up.
There is a noticeable difference between Schenkel with and without Gibson. Maybe, just maybe; Gibson can do for the goalie that beat Schenkel in last season’s playoff what he does for Schenkel. We are seeing a waived goalie put up league leading stats in every category for a good defensive team. We saw a middling talent win goalie of the year for a good defensive team last season.
Adding a goalie is a luxury that can be done if there are assets left once all the missing pieces have been added.
That is the gospel according to dirty.

 

[Fischhaber]

Maybe keep Schenkel, and trade Cloutier, Allard, Gibson for Hopkins, Heyes, 4-5 picks; or go get yourself an ‘08 with less points than fingers on one hand and some picks.

Leaving out the most impactful player in the deal for Kingston will not solve their issues. They aren't winning a championship with Lalonde, even if they add the league's best defensive defenseman and forward (top 5 anyways), as you suggest in this deal.

 

[OMG67]

Gibson is just not worth Hopkins plus picks; and having to replace Hopkins in the line up.
There is a noticeable difference between Schenkel with and without Gibson. Maybe, just maybe; Gibson can do for the goalie that beat Schenkel in last season’s playoff what he does for Schenkel. We are seeing a waived goalie put up league leading stats in every category for a good defensive team. We saw a middling talent win goalie of the year for a good defensive team last season.
Adding a goalie is a luxury that can be done if there are assets left once all the missing pieces have been added.
That is the gospel according to dirty.

Only add an OA goalie as a last resort.

 

[dirty12]

Leaving out the most impactful player in the deal for Kingston will not solve their issues. They aren't winning a championship with Lalonde, even if they add the league's best defensive defenseman and forward (top 5 anyways), as you suggest in this deal.

Top 5 forward!

 

[dirty12]

Only add an OA goalie as a last resort.

Only add a non-OA goalie for 8-10 picks when having a stupid amount of picks allows doing stupid things.
Remember, Oster was goalie of the year! Three goalies ‘sucked’ for the wolves, Ivankovic has a <0.900 SV% after approaching 0.920 as a rookie. It is the team in front of the goalie that really matters

 

[scotty171]

Gibson is just not worth Hopkins plus picks; and having to replace Hopkins in the line up.
There is a noticeable difference between Schenkel with and without Gibson. Maybe, just maybe; Gibson can do for the goalie that beat Schenkel in last season’s playoff what he does for Schenkel. We are seeing a waived goalie put up league leading stats in every category for a good defensive team. We saw a middling talent win goalie of the year for a good defensive team last season.
Adding a goalie is a luxury that can be done if there are assets left once all the missing pieces have been added.
That is the gospel according to dirty.

All the more reason to pay up for Gibson! Haha. In all seriousness, the Allen trade has given us a starting point here. If Kingston wants him they can get him for Hopkins. I doubt they do that. Maybe a deal with mignossa or Clouthier going with Gibson can do it?

 

[OMG67]

Only add a non-OA goalie for 8-10 picks when having a stupid amount of picks allows doing stupid things.
Remember, Oster was goalie of the year! Three goalies ‘sucked’ for the wolves, Ivankovic has a <0.900 SV% after approaching 0.920 as a rookie. It is the team in front of the goalie that really matters

Which is why you don’t waste an OA spot on a goalie unless the goalie is elite. If you have the team and the defence, either go get the most elite goalie possible that isn’t an OA or roll with what you have. Wasting an OA on a goalie is not ideal UNLESS that goalie is clearly your only option or that goalie is friggin’ outstanding.

London platooning with an OA goalie is stupid, especially one that lost his net in each of the last two playoffs with a 100+ point team. Kingston wasting an OA slot on Lalonde is stupid. A team with Championship aspirations trading for Schenkel is stupid. I originally had it in my head he was 19 years old but when I realized he was 20, why bother? Leave the OA goalies for the middling teams and struggling teams that need the added protection on the back end as a stabilizer.

The goalie that teams should be going after if they have a middling OA Goalie is Bowen. Maybe even Gillespie. If they want to go heavy, try to get George (who is by all accounts unavailable at any cost). Open up the OA slot and acquire an impactful 3rd OA. Any team willing to part with a 2nd and a 5th should be able to get either of Bowen or Gillespie with no issues unless there are multiple teams out there in the same mindset.

If the teams are strong enough to truly compete for a championship, maybe they can Chris Osgoode their way into a Banner.

 

[zaluty]

I agree with what everyone on here says about Springer and how he may see the team as. But maybe, just maybe he is starting to be getting tired of how the team performs. I would say the hiring of Mann is counter productive of him seeing the team just as a financial entity. He must have ponied up to pay Mann and I believe Mann would not take the job without certain conditions. Mann does not suffer fools easily and has enough experience to know the difference between commitment to the team and commitment to the dollar side of things. We will see in the next couple of years how things will come together or stay the same.

 

[Fischhaber]

OMG67 saying that teams who use OA goalies are stupid is kind of funny when 4 of them top 5 teams (Niagara, Oshawa, London, Kitchener) use OA goalies. Using an OA spot on the most impactful position in the playoffs can be a great strategy. Schenkel would be the second best goaltender of those 5, if he were included.

 

[ottsabrefan]

This is pretty astute.

Kingston’s ownership does not properly invest in their team. The reality is, some OHL owners aren’t in it for the Championships. It is not their priority. It is an asset and they treat it as a financial instrument. I am reasonably sure Springer uses the franchise for that purpose.

If we take a step back from the hockey aspect and strictly look at it as a financial instrument, the ultimate goal is to retain the franchise and allow it to grow in value while not losing money. Doug Springer bought the team in 1997-98. I am not sure how much he bought it for but I doubt it was much more than around $5mil. I know Jeff Hunt bought the 67’s in 1999 for $10mil so around $5mil for Kingston to save the team from relocation seems about right. The franchise is likely worth somewhere around $25mil now. So, there has been a ~5x multiplier on the franchise value since it was purchased. So, even if the franchise has never made money, it has grown in value.

Theresa re two ways for a team to realize profits. The first, and most commonly thought of way is to increase revenue. But, to increase revenue, you usually need to invest which adds risk. Fro example, to grow sales, you need a good team. To get a good team you need quality scouts, coaches, and management. So, for every dollar you generate in revenue, you pay out a % to costs. But, I think Springer take the alternate approach. Cut costs. Every dollar you save in operating the franchise goes directly back in your pocket. There are no input costs on saving $$$.

So, if you are a team owner that really doesn’t care about winning and the goal is to not lose $$$ and put minimal effort in while allowing the franchise value to organically grow, you have what I believe is the Springer formula.

Kingston has loads of potential. They have a solid population base and a pretty good Metro area catchment population. There is very solid local economy. Disposable income in Kingston is relatively high. There isn’t a lot of direct competition for the Entertainment dollars. IT is generally considered a hockey hotbed with loads of hockey fans.

The problem in Kingston is there is a lot of apathy towards the Frontenacs. I believe that has a lot to do with two things. First, the Frontenacs are a loser franchise. They just NEVER win. After so many decades without any consistent winning and virtually never winning playoff series. The fans have tagged the franchise as a loser and don’t want to support it. And second, they don’t respect the ownership and don’t’ feel they put the franchise first which means they don’t put the people of Kingston first. That’s right. When a community has a sports team, that sports team represents the community. When the Ownership puts every effort into the profile of the team, the community feels like the ownership is working FOR them. You see that in Owen Sound big time. You don’t need to win every year in Owen Sound. That is because the ownership puts the team first, connects the team with the community and gives the community pride of collective ownership. It is part of the fabric of the town. The Frontenacs will never get that with Springer. He doesn’t care. It isn’t what motivates him.

Until there is a sale of the team to an invested owner that truly wants to put their own blood, sweat, and tears into the team, how can you expect the fanbase to also put their blood, sweat, and tears into the team? The two go hand in hand. The Franchises that understand that are successful even if they aren’t always successful in the standings.

Great post! One of your best! It’s almost like you lived the pain over the last two plus decades.

It should be pinned for every time someone says that Kingston isn’t an OHL town or that Springer saved the Fronts!

 

[beastintheeast]

Hopkins + picks for Gibson + Schenkel (cut Lalonde) makes you guys an elite defensive unit with a high end goalie. Cost is high, but it's the obvious move if they are serious about contending this season.

Then they have nothing next year.

Great post! One of your best! It’s almost like you lived the pain over the laIn fact Sprnst two plus decades.

It should be pinned for every time someone says that Kingston isn’t an OHL town or that Springer saved the Fronts!

In fact Springer did save the team as a Kingston entity. There were, I am sure, other bids, but they probably would have moved the team to Hamilton or Niagara. Springer got sucked into the Lary Navety school and bought all the kool aid. Then he bought Mav Kool aid about how Gilmour would put butts in the seats.

They have ow got a GM and coach that are not part of that. It is now time to rebuild this team.

Players didn to want to come here because it was a clown show with Caputi.

Mann is setting himself up as a good coach, and the only thing agents want to know is how long he will stay and what the succession plan is.


I agree that Wright was not the saviour of this team, but I will disagree on the trade. Cooper was put in a last-minute problem where he had to trade him to whoever would make a good deal, and the Kraken and Wrtight allowed it.

Looking at it, I think the late time intentionally stressed out a new GM. Put, if Cooper had had more time, there would have been more offers, and Wright would have been behind the 8 ball.

I think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Cooper had said that he would not trade him.


Anyway, that is done. We still have some draft picks. Lets see how the team does.

 

[ScoutLife4]

Then they have nothing next year.

In fact Springer did save the team as a Kingston entity. There were, I am sure, other bids, but they probably would have moved the team to Hamilton or Niagara. Springer got sucked into the Lary Navety school and bought all the kool aid. Then he bought Mav Kool aid about how Gilmour would put butts in the seats.

They have ow got a GM and coach that are not part of that. It is now time to rebuild this team.

Players didn to want to come here because it was a clown show with Caputi.

Mann is setting himself up as a good coach, and the only thing agents want to know is how long he will stay and what the succession plan is.


I agree that Wright was not the saviour of this team, but I will disagree on the trade. Cooper was put in a last-minute problem where he had to trade him to whoever would make a good deal, and the Kraken and Wrtight allowed it.

Looking at it, I think the late time intentionally stressed out a new GM. Put, if Cooper had had more time, there would have been more offers, and Wright would have been behind the 8 ball.

I think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Cooper had said that he would not trade him.


Anyway, that is done. We still have some draft picks. Lets see how the team does.

Mann is on the same path and has the same goals as every other coach in this league.
They are all fighting to get to or back to the NHL. -This is not a question the Agents are going to ask as its just common sense.

 

[OMG67]

OMG67 saying that teams who use OA goalies are stupid is kind of funny when 4 of them top 5 teams (Niagara, Oshawa, London, Kitchener) use OA goalies. Using an OA spot on the most impactful position in the playoffs can be a great strategy. Schenkel would be the second best goaltender of those 5, if he were included.

You have slightly taken it out of context and I had clarified in a later reply that you only do it out of complete necessity.

IMO, there is only one true elite goalie in our league that is most likely to play the pivotal role for a team in the playoffs and that is Carter George. The rest of the goalies may or may not have a solid playoff.

There is only one goalie in our league that has had an honest opportunity to win a Championship backstopping an elite team and that is Elliott. Both times, he lost his net in the playoffs to the backup. So, even a goalie like Elliott that put up crazy stats that should be the guy in the playoffs lost his net. Until a goalie does it, you don’t know if he can get over that mental hump. Even George you don’t know byt he will be the starter for team Canada so let’s see how he mentally handles this opportunity.

If a team currently has an OA goalie and they are uncomfortable with their goalie, there is no sense paying to upgrade OA goalies that have never been successful in the playoffs. And to be honest, none of them other than Elliott has had an honest chance so it is unfair to judge them that way but the acquiring team has to.

IMO, if Kingston is uncomfortable with Lalonde (and they should be), upgrading and paying the freight for PArsons or Schenkel is not ideal. Go get Bowen or Gillespie and fill the OA slot with a the best possible skater they can land. To me, that is a better combination. No matter what goalie they get, they won’t know whether the goalie can win.

It is not like teams can go acquire last year’s Champion like London did last year with Simpson. That player isn’t available.

Only out of sheer necessity should a team employ an OA goalie when they are vying for a championship. THIS YEAR, there may be more teams that have no or less choice, agreed. But, if the cost of acquiring Bowen is the same as acquiring Schenkel but acquiring Bowen allows for a discounted OA upgrade, take the two players vs the one.

 

[OMG67]

Mann is on the same path and has the same goals as every other coach in this league.
They are all fighting to get to or back to the NHL. -This is not a question the Agents are going to ask as its just common sense.

And I think this is something people need to remember. It is about putting together the foundation operation and then plug in the Human Resource pieces to work within that operation for however long they are here.

There are certain pieces that are transient but there are other pieces that are less transient. Try to ensure the foundation is solid. Spend the appropriate amount of money to keep your foundational pieces. You have trainers, strength and conditioning coaches, team doctors, education assistants, marketing teams etc. Build the strong foundation. Build your place in the community. Build a loyal fanbase that can support a team year over year. If you end up with one bad apple now and then, it doesn’t add to the poison.