KHL Expansion Part VIII

[vorky]

I will present you two stories.

Story 1
We do not need you.
You will not do it.
Ahh, you did it differently! We need you.

Story 2
No chance, you will not do it.
Uhh, it is done. How so?

And the KHL story is very & very similar.

 

[KTl]

In 2026, Vorky will explain us, why closing the Paris KHL team is not a fail for KHL.

 

[ozo]

I will present you two stories.

Story 1
We do not need you.
You will not do it.
Ahh, you did it differently! We need you.

Story 2
No chance, you will not do it.
Uhh, it is done. How so?

And the KHL story is very & very similar.

What any of that means? Who are "we" and who are those "those who did it differently"?

 

[vorky]

What any of that means? Who are "we" and who are those "those who did it differently"?

They are just two stories from global affairs when nothing is going on in front of media and ordinary people but many important steps are done behind the closed doors at that time.

If speaking about the KHL expansion process, just two or three people have all the picture in front of them - Timchenko, Morozov and perhaps Fasel. I believe Reindl & Tardif are partially informed, but definitely lacking the whole puzzle.

 

[SoundAndFury]

They are just two stories from global affairs when nothing is going on in front of media and ordinary people but many important steps are done behind the closed doors at that time.

Ah, you mean like that time when you tried to prove Slovan isn't leaving the KHL 2 days before it became official.. I get it now, yeah, it does fool some.

 

[vorky]

I have always said there were multiple processes going on in Slovan. At the time, I described one of them. You to have a bigger picture - even Široký did not know whom he is selling the club. I believe @Faterson can add something.

I just say there are multiple processes going on with various subjects regarding the expansion. We need to wait. I always describe some puzzle from ongoing processes. It is up to you to decise what kind of information is important for you. Of course, you can claim there are no negotiations, your choice.

 

[alko]

Ah, you mean like that time when you tried to prove Slovan isn't leaving the KHL 2 days before it became official.. I get it now, yeah, it does fool some.

Hey. Slovan didnt leave. They took only a vacation.

 

[ozo]

They are just two stories from global affairs when nothing is going on in front of media and ordinary people but many important steps are done behind the closed doors at that time.

If speaking about the KHL expansion process, just two or three people have all the picture in front of them - Timchenko, Morozov and perhaps Fasel. I believe Reindl & Tardif are partially informed, but definitely lacking the whole puzzle.

That pretty much sounds like QAnon conspiracy theory, but ok. All that nonsense aside, even if France attracts mysterious sponsors (or more precisely sugardaddy with Russian business interests) to scrape together minimum budget, I imagine the team probably will be as pathetic as Medvescak, Dinamo Riga, or Slovan in later its later KHL years.

 

[vorky]

René Fasel says he is ready to work for KHL & FHR. No surprise.

 

[Exarz]

What would even the perks of a French team be? Hockey is such a marginal sport there and wouldn't bring much to the table market-wise. The team would most likely be very mediocre as well so wouldn't add much quality either.

 

[SoundAndFury]

What would even the perks of a French team be? Hockey is such a marginal sport there and wouldn't bring much to the table market-wise. The team would most likely be very mediocre as well so wouldn't add much quality either.

I think at this point the only way for the KHL to expand westward is to get a team in a country like France which doesn't bring much to the table. None of at least somewhat established hockey countries would let it in and none of the established clubs entertain the idea after Medvescak and Slovan - 2 successful projects with good crowds - had to fold anyway.

 

[vorky]

What would even the perks of a French team be? Hockey is such a marginal sport there and wouldn't bring much to the table market-wise. The team would most likely be very mediocre as well so wouldn't add much quality either.

It is not a question of a French whatever team. The point is Tardif is not a hard opponent of the idea. IIRC Tardif, Reindl & Fasel were guests of the KHL World Games, Reindl & Tardif supported the idea of bringing the KHL World Games to their countries. And Tardif even talked about a French team.

The KHL is now in a position they do not need to expand. They will expand only in a case the new team brings something to the league - so, television market and/or quality on ice.

Yes, Dinamo Riga is not good on ice, but look at the revenue sharing, they are behind Jokerit & ahead of SKA with Avangard. The formula is advantageous for European clubs if they bring a bigger value.

Russian players would not play for that French whatever team, there is not so many French whatever players. So, this team would bring the players from SHL, Liiga, perhaps NL, AHL? Making these leagues weaker.

 

[vorky]

I think at this point the only way for the KHL to expand westward is to get a team in a country like France which doesn't bring much to the table. None of at least somewhat established hockey countries would let it in and none of the established clubs entertain the idea after Medvescak and Slovan - 2 successful projects with good crowds - had to fold anyway.

For some undisclosed reason you are missing the biggest issue - these "established clubs" do not have a venue & overal infrastructure the KHL to even start negotiating with them. Not speaking about budget.

 

[SoundAndFury]

For some undisclosed reason you are missing the biggest issue - these "established clubs" do not have a venue & overal infrastructure the KHL to even start negotiating with them. Not speaking about budget.

Isn't it the KHL problem that it can't attract clubs that do have all that? Or are you seriously saying those don't exist?

 

[vorky]

Name clubs who "do have all that."

 

[SoundAndFury]

Name clubs who "do have all that."

What for? For you to find some idiotic reasons why it's actually the KHL that doesn't want them? Give me a break

 

[vorky]

Looks like to me that you know about such clubs & wanting to discuss them, so I just politely asked for the list to start the discussion. You know ... if you do not post a list, we can not discuss anything. As simple as that.

 

[SoundAndFury]

You got it all wrong, I definitely don't want to discuss any such matters with you and consider it a huge waste of time. All I do is attempt to be your reality check sometimes, futile as it is. But discussing, no thanks, we have been past that for years.

 

[vorky]

So fine, there is no list from you. Good to know.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Name clubs who "do have all that."

I feel like jumping down the rabbit hole with you today. That and I haven't proved you wrong in a few weeks, I need to step up again and keep the streak going.

Club	Arena	Capacity
SC Bern	PostFinance Arena	17.031
Eisbären Berlin	Mercedez-Benz Arena	14.200
Kölner Haie	Lanxess Arena	18.500
Adler Mannheim	SAP Arena	13.600
Frölunda HC	Scandinavium	12.000
Malmö	Malmö Arena	13.000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And none of them want to join the KHL's failed European expansion plans.

Thank you, come again.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Not to mention that arena size as cut-off criteria is stupid anyway. Kunlun does have a huge arena, much good it has done for them and the league. Barys is another example, it's depressing to see that huge arena half-empty most of the time. Furthermore, those 7-9k arenas most European teams play in would still be the middle of the pack in the KHL.

If there was legit interest from any of such teams KHL would have jumped on it like there's no tomorrow. Medvescak also only had an old 6.5k arena, haven't they?

 

[vorky]

Thank you for the list. You presented nothing new, but again thanks for the list. Just a good advice, if you will do the similar research in the future, please add Tampere, Hamburg, Frankfurt am Main, Munich, Zurich and others to have a full list.

The KHL will soon have majority of their arenas over 10-12,000 seats. It is the league´s new standard, there are multiple reasons for it. Starting from broadcasting and finishing with fans´ experience. Wishing all Europe following this exapmple.

As I said, there are other important issues, not just arena´s capacity. You need to take them into account as well Just reminding you, your team needs at least 15-20 million euro for a season. What team, you named, is able to guarantee that budget for at least three to five seasons? Seriously asking.

Guessing the decisions of teams you named are often motivated by non-hockey & non-business reasons, so their position is predictable.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Well with that huge income increase coming from the KHL revenue sharing and whatnot those teams would have the budget for sure Oh wait, there is no increase that's why nobody is interested in joining in the first place as it offers absolutely nothing to the teams in established markets. Here we go, we came full circle.

 

[vorky]

Regarding Bern, Fasel would not agree.

“As the Russians would say, ‘pochemu niet?’ [why not?],” Fasel said. “There would be problems to solve: budgets, travel. I think only Geneva or Zurich could manage that. Geneva might be the most likely option, there have been talks about it in the past. We understand that the KHL is keen to expand, both in the East and the West, and the league is focusing on bigger cities than Davos.”

I need to admit Fasel is much more informed about behind the scenes talks than all of us combined.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Thank you for the list. You presented nothing new, but again thanks for the list. Just a good advice, if you will do the similar research in the future, please add Tampere, Hamburg, Frankfurt am Main, Munich, Zurich and others to have a full list.

The KHL will soon have majority of their arenas over 10-12,000 seats. It is the league´s new standard, there are multiple reasons for it. Starting from broadcasting and finishing with fans´ experience. Wishing all Europe following this exapmple.

As I said, there are other important issues, not just arena´s capacity. You need to take them into account as well Just reminding you, your team needs at least 15-20 million euro for a season. What team, you named, is able to guarantee that budget for at least three to five seasons? Seriously asking.

Guessing the decisions of teams you named are often motivated by non-hockey & non-business reasons, so their position is predictable.

Exactly. I proved you wrong. Nothing new.

And to continue proving you wrong:

Tampere capacity: 7.300
Hamburg: only have Germany3 level team, so no club available...
Frankfurt capacity: 7.000
Munich: no arena big since SAP Garden isn't built yet

Funny how you tried to include cities that have such low capacity, or no available club, yet say KHL has new standard of 10,000-12,000