KHL Contraction Part I (Mod Warning - Post #15)

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vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Losing Neftekhimik would be a shame.
I don't get this 24-team concept. Medvedev plan of 64 of course wasn't sustainable, but I can see the KHL with 32 teams and mostly Russian teams. Of course some new foreigner teams would be needed.
We do not know all data. So it is complicated to understand why the league chose 24 and not 26 or 22. The league knows what are financing sources of clubs budgets, structure of spending, structure of salaries, TV ratings and income from TV rights, attendance, state of infrastructure, commercial potential of a market etc. They counted it somehow. Definitely they did not chose 24 (teams) or 600 million rubles (salary cap) or 4 (new clubs) because they liked the number.

Players and money. That is a reason for a contraction. Russia is not able to develop so many good players for 21 KHL clubs. Even if no Russians to play overseas. Of course those players are overpaid. You exclude 7-8 Russian teams & replace them with 4 foreign teams. You get rid of average Russian players (overpaid) & get new foreign players, who may be better than those Russians (if new teams are like Jokerit). So, you save money & increase quality of a game.

At the same time Russia, especially Russian public budgets, saves money, because they do not have to pay those 7-8 Russian KHL clubs. New foreign clubs can be co-financed by Russians, but not as much as those 7-8 Russian KHL clubs which you kicked out.

You asked what how is a club from South Korea better than Severstal. Perhaps Koreans are willing to pay more for TV rights than a broadcaster from Cherepovets. I have said many times - Russian TV market is not so developped as European/American... I guess Asian is better than Russian too. The league needs to expand to new markets if wants to earn more money. It is impossible to earn money if even a broadcaster from your city is not able to broadcast a single game of a team based in this city. Do not speak about foreign broadcasters.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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Russia is not able to develop so many good players for 21 KHL clubs.

On this I don't agree. Bump the foreigner limit to six, enforce a stricter roster limit so that CSKA and SKA can stop stockpiling players and those are more spread around the league, with more teams you also have more space for younger players and that is. Russia is a huge country, with many talented players. It was always like that and always will.
If a talented player from Novokuznetsk or Cherepovets doesn't have a KHL team to play in, they will move overseas and Russia will likely lost him as most of the young players who go there, then bust. Is it that hard to understand? Young players need to play and to understand that there is space for them. Now, I think that all these youngsters are really either unpatient or they listen too much to the wrong people, but if you read the interviews, what they say mostly? They don't have a spot in the KHL.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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On this I don't agree. Bump the foreigner limit to six, enforce a stricter roster limit so that CSKA and SKA can stop stockpiling players and those are more spread around the league, with more teams you also have more space for younger players and that is. Russia is a huge country, with many talented players. It was always like that and always will.
If a talented player from Novokuznetsk or Cherepovets doesn't have a KHL team to play in, they will move overseas and Russia will likely lost him as most of the young players who go there, then bust. Is it that hard to understand? Young players need to play and to understand that there is space for them. Now, I think that all these youngsters are really either unpatient or they listen too much to the wrong people, but if you read the interviews, what they say mostly? They don't have a spot in the KHL.
I agree, Russia has many talented players. For many reasons Russia is not able to develop top players en masse. All problems start with youth hockey, the KHL is the latest step.

You can not guarantee a spot in the KHL. A player should work on himself to earn the spot. What have prospects done? They give up when first problems appear & moving overseas. That is not what you should do. It is funny how the prospects talk "you need to work hard to earn a spot in the CHL, the AHL or the NHL. Nobody gives it to you for free." When the same player is in the KHL system, he talks "I want a guaranteed spot or I am moving abroad."

Agents and journalists are a big problem as well. They have bad influence on player´s decision.
 

Exarz

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Jan 1, 2014
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Losing Neftekhimik would be a shame.
I don't get this 24-team concept. Medvedev plan of 64 of course wasn't sustainable, but I can see the KHL with 32 teams and mostly Russian teams. Of course some new foreigner teams would be needed.
It's rather easy. Some teams are in debt, cutting the amount of teams and replace them with foreign teams gives the league a higher revenue and the quality on the ice gets better.

Some players have actually said that the gap quality-wise in the league is too big and that the worst teams in the league are not even SHL level, they would be a top team in HockeyAllsvenskan, and that is not something a few more import players would change. Russia does not have the quality players to have that many KHL teams.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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It's rather easy. Some teams are in debt, cutting the amount of teams and replace them with foreign teams gives the league a higher revenue and the quality on the ice gets better.

What you said makes sense from a certain point of view, but the logic fails when you think that the kicked or will-be-kicked teams Metallurg Nk, Yugra, Lada, Severstal, never had a single problem with finances. Little budgets, yes, but no debts. At all. AT ALL. Admiral, Torpedo, etc... of course those teams are probably better, but they have, will have, and had debts problems, so, what's the logic?

Some players have actually said that the gap quality-wise in the league is too big and that the worst teams in the league are not even SHL level, they would be a top team in HockeyAllsvenskan, and that is not something a few more import players would change. Russia does not have the quality players to have that many KHL teams.

Having C/SKA with two rosters of 25 men and not one thousand each would already solve a part of this problem. Ketov, for example, would be a first-line player in a lot of KHL teams. Tikhonov probably even more. I could go on with a lot of players.
Russian is more than fine with talent production. Remember me, what is the last time Sweden won a medal at the WJC?
 

Exarz

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Jan 1, 2014
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What you said makes sense from a certain point of view, but the logic fails when you think that the kicked or will-be-kicked teams Metallurg Nk, Yugra, Lada, Severstal, never had a single problem with finances. Little budgets, yes, but no debts. At all. AT ALL. Admiral, Torpedo, etc... of course those teams are probably better, but they have, will have, and had debts problems, so, what's the logic?
Sure, players are extremely overpaid, but no matter what, if you want to be a high end hockey league, you need to kick out the worst teams. You can't have teams in this league that would not make it on neither SHL nor Liiga level.


Having C/SKA with two rosters of 25 men and not one thousand each would already solve a part of this problem. Ketov, for example, would be a first-line player in a lot of KHL teams. Tikhonov probably even more. I could go on with a lot of players.
Russian is more than fine with talent production. Remember me, what is the last time Sweden won a medal at the WJC?

The situation is terrible, I know, but again, spreading out the top players works best if you cut the amount out teams. Plus, having a better second division would be a good way to

And I don't understand how being a medalist at the WJC is relevant to this discussion. It's a discussion about the depth of Russian hockey. But hey, if we take a look at the 2015-16 Swedish WJC team that ended 4th, only three of them have yet not signed an NHL deal.
 

SoundAndFury

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May 28, 2012
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Cutting amount of teams is fine but it doesn't really spread the talent because the cream of the crop still goes to the same place. Severstal is a very small market team and they will have to deal with the consequences of it at some point but it's not the time. Vityaz hasn't been terrible for 1 year over their KHL existence an they are getting saved all of the sudden?
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Sure, players are extremely overpaid, but no matter what, if you want to be a high end hockey league, you need to kick out the worst teams. You can't have teams in this league that would not make it on neither SHL nor Liiga level.
Agree. I would add following. You need clubs from cities which are comfortable for living. For players, even Russians, and their families. If Yugra had a budget of SKA, would all the players move to Khanty-Mansijsk instead of Peterburg? And I can go on with other clubs/cities. This factor is also important. Simply, some Russian regional cities are not attractive for living from players point of view.

I understand an opinion that you (the KHL) need to support a hockey in regions too, because they develop your future players. On the other hand, not everyone can play in top league. Even Swedes, which philosophy is "everyone can become Swedish champion", want to make it harder for smaller clubs to make the SHL.

The situation is terrible, I know, but again, spreading out the top players works best if you cut the amount out teams. Plus, having a better second division would be a good way to

And I don't understand how being a medalist at the WJC is relevant to this discussion. It's a discussion about the depth of Russian hockey. But hey, if we take a look at the 2015-16 Swedish WJC team that ended 4th, only three of them have yet not signed an NHL deal.
Yes, good second division is needed as well.
 
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BalticWarrior

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I personally can't see any Moscow based team leaving. Even Spartak. They are such a traditional team I don't think that Putin and his friends would settle for them being in the VHL. Spartak seem to really be trying to build their team and fanbase but Moscow is so saturated you got to feel bad for them.

Admiral is staying I agree. They are a brand new team like Sochi and jsut need time to get their foundations set and soon they'll be a regular KHL team like the rest, plus with Asia division as mentioned we need Admiral, Amur to be there.

And as for Riga, this is without my biased. We suck, we need more money or we need to invest more of the money we get. We need to win more games. However the fans will remain and Riga is one of the most traditional USSR teams and with Juris being best friends with Putin I can never see Riga leaving unless funding is stopped by Gazprom. Every league needs a bottom team and that's us :handclap:

edit:

Vityaz I agree. They would probably be suited to the VHL more. Small budget ect. Same with Yugra. As much as I enjoy these 2 teams in the league they aren't on the level of SKA, Metallurg ect.

You sicken me. That is the most despicable thing ive heard in a while.
 
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Rigafan

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Jul 28, 2016
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You sicken me. That is the most despicable thing ive heard in a while.

I understand but its true. We won't and can't ever have a league of 32 SKA's. Some teams need to fill the bottom slots and right now, that is us, Yugra, Lada etc. Riga seems to have some connections that the others don't for now though.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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And I don't understand how being a medalist at the WJC is relevant to this discussion. It's a discussion about the depth of Russian hockey. But hey, if we take a look at the 2015-16 Swedish WJC team that ended 4th, only three of them have yet not signed an NHL deal.

Playing or not playing in the NHL is at least at the same level of being not relevant, since the KHL is full of very good players who are not playing or never played in the NHL.
The same with being drafted or not drafted, Panarin and Bobrovsky play alright in the NHL even if they went undrafted.
Russian hockey depth is good. Today we defeated a good Canadian team and I understand that this roster will be the roster for the Olympics, but there are many players who are much better than the ones that will go there but just happen to not play for the right team(s).
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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Cutting amount of teams is fine but it doesn't really spread the talent because the cream of the crop still goes to the same place.

That's what I mean. The KHL to be a better league don't need less teams (although teams in debt should be taken care of) and probably even a salary cap. Just a 25-men hard limit so that Ketovs and Tikhonovs of this world can spread better to lower-level teams to increase the competiveness at least a bit.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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You need clubs from cities which are comfortable for living

And then why instead of cutting teams don't move teams to bigger cities? There are so many good, big Russian cities where KHL teams can be based, like Krasnoyarsk, Perm, Saratov, Rostov-on-Don, Voronezh, Volgograd, Tyumen, then you have cities like Ulyanov, Penza, or even Orenburg...
If it was like you said, then we'd have Tyumen or Surgut in instead of Yugra, Lada in Samara, and not in Togliatti (although the city is quite big if I'm not wrong 700K inhabitants), and so on.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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And then why instead of cutting teams don't move teams to bigger cities? There are so many good, big Russian cities where KHL teams can be based, like Krasnoyarsk, Perm, Saratov, Rostov-on-Don, Voronezh, Volgograd, Tyumen, then you have cities like Ulyanov, Penza, or even Orenburg...
If it was like you said, then we'd have Tyumen or Surgut in instead of Yugra, Lada in Samara, and not in Togliatti (although the city is quite big if I'm not wrong 700K inhabitants), and so on.
I understand you. There are many good Russian cities, no doubt.

The problem is that Russia (Europe) is not America, you can not relocate a club from lets say Cherepovets to Volgograd. Another problem is arena, cities you named do not have big hockey arenas & will not have soon.

The KHL under Chernyshenko, better said Timchenko, is bussiness oriented. The league tries to develop the bussiness. You need full arenas, strong ownership of the clubs & the product interested for broadcasters. Attendance of some clubs is terrible, there is no hope for better tommorows. Yes, CSKA is bad as well. But the club is a world class brand, you need such teams in the league, and has a strong owner. That is a reason why CSKA has more value for the KHL than Novokuznetsk or others. Lets come back to bad attended teams. If these teams have old small arenas, no hope for a contruction of new one, such clubs are bad attended at away games in other cities (not attractive opponent). The city where the club is based is small (compared to other KHL cities) & purchasing power of inhabitants is low. What should the KHL do with them? Especially if a club´s management do not care.

Ownership. Some clubs are simply not able to survive in a big league. The budget is too small. I do not say all clubs should be like SKA, even it would be great, but if your club is not able to reach league´s average... there is something bad. The league is too good for your team. That is another reason why we have an uneven league, no roster limits would fix it. You can limit it, the result would be an exodus of the players, because the rest of the league can not afford them. That we want? But, if you reduce a salary cap to league´s today average & gets rid of club who are not able to reach the level, you can have more parity. Do not forget the decision of the President of the RF: профессиональный спорт должен зарабатывать на свои нужды сам. To translate, professional sport should finance itself. That is bad? As you know, many teams are financed by the government .... you need to decrease the public funding. How to do it? To take money from all teams. The result is a poor league with exodus of the players. Or to reduce amount of teams & concentrate money into top teams. Of course, there will be a public funding, but the amount will decrease. Because there will be lower teams & those teams will earn more by themself. Of course, these relegating to the VHL will be funded by the government too, but the amount of money will be much lower, the VHL is not so expensive.

The product for broadcasters. I have said many times, Russian TV market is not able to produce so much money from sport as American or in some European countries. The KHL needs to sell the league to foreign broadcasters. How to do it? Of course develop the product - HD, lighting etc. Not easy. Clubs differ each other. For objective reasons, some regional clubs are not able to produce top notch broadcasting. So, you need to get rid of them. Or hope they will fix the problem.... how many years to wait? At the end of a day, what games are broadcasted by foreign broadcasters? Games of foreign KHL club, Jokerit in Finland etc or other top games. For some reason foreign broadcasters are not interested in Lada vs Yugra game, or Neftekhimik vs Severstal. Even Russian Match TV is not. What to do with such matches/clubs? Back to foreign broadcasters - they broadcast games of non-Russian KHL teams, as I said Jokerit in Finland. So, if you bring a team from Germany, Switzeland, Japan, Korea or China, broadcasters from those countries will broadcast games of those teams. Plus, they buy other top KHL games too. That is another reason for expansion. And if you want to expand, you need to cut somewhere. Or to expand and expand and expand... in a situation where there are not so many good enough players on the market.

That is a few remarks.

Contraction of smaller Russian teams by the KHL does not mean that Russian hockey will be killed. On the contrary, lower division - the VHL - will get stronger.
 

Go Donbass

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Vorky,

I read what you wrote and largely agree with everything, except this idea of an exodus of players if there were roster limits. Let's look at this.

Ok, so if the league set roster limits like they have in the NHL, we know there would be a bunch of players from SKA and CSKA, and maybe one or two other clubs that would need to find homes. Where are they going to go?

NHL? Well seems to me, many of them tried that. They sat on the bench or in the press box or were sent down to the AHL. This is why they are back in the KHL to begin with. Are they eager to go back to that situation again? Probably not.

Other KHL clubs? Well they may not make as much money to play with Sibir or Severstal, but they will probably make as good or better money than playing anywhere else in Europe, and they will actually be playing, which for a professional athlete is very important. This would probably be what happened with the bulk of the overflow from SKA and CSKA.

Other European clubs? They would definitely be playing every night, but for, in most cases, far less than what they could make playing in the KHL. This would be an attractive option for some of the non-Russian Euro players, but I'm guessing would only be temporary until the desire to make more money and play against better competition set in.

In short, I don't think any exodus of players would materialize. The talent would spread out for the most part, they would just have to accept less money to actually play hockey.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Vorky,

I read what you wrote and largely agree with everything, except this idea of an exodus of players if there were roster limits. Let's look at this.

Ok, so if the league set roster limits like they have in the NHL, we know there would be a bunch of players from SKA and CSKA, and maybe one or two other clubs that would need to find homes. Where are they going to go?

NHL? Well seems to me, many of them tried that. They sat on the bench or in the press box or were sent down to the AHL. This is why they are back in the KHL to begin with. Are they eager to go back to that situation again? Probably not.

Other KHL clubs? Well they may not make as much money to play with Sibir or Severstal, but they will probably make as good or better money than playing anywhere else in Europe, and they will actually be playing, which for a professional athlete is very important. This would probably be what happened with the bulk of the overflow from SKA and CSKA.

Other European clubs? They would definitely be playing every night, but for, in most cases, far less than what they could make playing in the KHL. This would be an attractive option for some of the non-Russian Euro players, but I'm guessing would only be temporary until the desire to make more money and play against better competition set in.

In short, I don't think any exodus of players would materialize. The talent would spread out for the most part, they would just have to accept less money to actually play hockey.
Exactly! That is how the KHL projects the future. Per the KHL´´s analysis, the KHL´s average salary is 2,8 times bigger than in European league now. If the new strategy goes well, the gap will be 2,6 in favor of the KHL. An decrease but not radical.

I admit, I was not clear .... the point is that you need to have clubs which are able to reach at least league´s salary average. If they are not are able to do that, they will be not able to pay these non-needed SKA players. Clubs like Novokuznetsk are not able to do that. I would say Lada is the same case. Even Yugra´s budget has decreased year by year. What to do which them? Keep them & hope for better tommorows? Or to kick them out? There is a panic that the new salary cap of 600 million rubles is to low. Reality is that it is current league´s average of playoff teams. Chernyshenko said that those PO teams spend around 750 million rubles on average. You know, two star players & players bonuses will not be counted towards new salary cap. So, only change will be that SKA will not be able to keep so many players & other teams will be able to afford them.

It will be funny to follow the market when 4 new non-Russian teams join the KHL. Most likely 3 Central/West European clubs and one from Asia. Those European teams will be on Jokerit´s level of funding. The SHL & the NLA can be main targets for them.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Of course I was just talking hypotetically. But projects in Vladivostok and Sochi kind of work, so why not to replicate them?
We know why Vladivostok & Sochi are in the league. Vladivostok is in Far East, an ideal city for further KHL´s expansion to Asia. Plus Russia has invested a lot to Far East, especially Vladivostok. Great location for players & families. That can not be said about other Russian cities you mentioned. Sochi is ideal city for living too & has a big arena. Other cities do not have & will not have such an arena.

The main reason for the contraction is money as I said earlier.

Russian clubs will always have majority or 50/50 in the league. That is important. If you remember how Euro-Asian League started, co-run by Chernyshenko. He wanted only 9 top RSL teams, only top notch. Further expansion inside Russia possible if a team meets criteria. Now he is doing the same with the KHL ... and people are suprised.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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You know, two star players & players bonuses will not be counted towards new salary cap. So, only change will be that SKA will not be able to keep so many players & other teams will be able to afford them.

That in theory, in practice, SKA and CSKA will still able to sign all of the players thanks to the genial idea to exclude player bonuses from the cap.
We'll have contracts like in the NFL: $500,000 salary and $25,000,000 of signing bonus.
The problem I have with this new KHL strategy is that they are creating excuses after excuses just to go on with the stupid idea of the "base of the national team". And for as much as I love the KHL, now, having it one season for the Olympics is kind of ok, that's how things developed, but having it like that like constantly, then I guess this "strategy" has no future.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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That in theory, in practice, SKA and CSKA will still able to sign all of the players thanks to the genial idea to exclude player bonuses from the cap.
We'll have contracts like in the NFL: $500,000 salary and $25,000,000 of signing bonus.
The problem I have with this new KHL strategy is that they are creating excuses after excuses just to go on with the stupid idea of the "base of the national team". And for as much as I love the KHL, now, having it one season for the Olympics is kind of ok, that's how things developed, but having it like that like constantly, then I guess this "strategy" has no future.

If we look at the situation with SKA/CSKA. Who created it? Medvedev. Of course the results are seen under Chernyshenko, because the process needs time to be seen. What was 1st Chernyshenko´s decision? To decrease the cap from 1,1b to 950 mil or so. And the cap has decreased every season since he came to the office. The rules allowing current situation was approved by Medvedev´s team.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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This idea was stupid then and today is now even stupidier. 9 teams is ok if you're Switzerland.
Russia is HUGE, with a lot of cities, a lot of good teams and a lot of good players.
I don't really think that a league of moscow and leningrad is a good idea.
NHL is expanding for a reason.
So, tell me why there is no major league team in Spokane, Washington? USA is a big country like Russia, even with more inhabitants & much higher income from TV deals. No Spokane because of not so good bussiness? Exactly, the same with the KHL.

If we want the KHL as a Russian league, that is one thing. If we want the KHL as an international league, it is second thing. Since the start is the KHL projected as international league. Of course there are still people who would like to see only Russian teams (or CIS) in the KHL.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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So, tell me why there is no major league team in Spokane, Washington? USA is a big country like Russia, even with more inhabitants & much higher income from TV deals. No Spokane because of not so good bussiness? Exactly, the same with the KHL.

If we want the KHL as a Russian league, that is one thing. If we want the KHL as an international league, it is second thing. Since the start is the KHL projected as international league. Of course there are still people who would like to see only Russian teams (or CIS) in the KHL.

I respect you a lot, don't get me wrong, this is not going to change, of course. But here, I don't get you.
The league can be international, but still have 16 to 18 Russian clubs. 16 Russian clubs and 28 teams in total makes still for 12 foreigner teams. Not a little number.
And this is without considering that Gazprom alone can fund 30 teams and not even feeling the difference.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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If we look at the situation with SKA/CSKA. Who created it? Medvedev. Of course the results are seen under Chernyshenko, because the process needs time to be seen. What was 1st Chernyshenko´s decision? To decrease the cap from 1,1b to 950 mil or so. And the cap has decreased every season since he came to the office. The rules allowing current situation was approved by Medvedev´s team.

?
Under Medvedev every player from every KHL team had pretty much an equal chance to get on the national team. Remember in 2012? Other than Malkin we had first line players from Avangard Omsk (Perezhogin/Popov). Biryukov from Magnitka, Kuznetsov from Traktor, Shirokov, Tereschenko, even Zherdev from Atlant.
Now they prefer to call tourists like Kablukov or Zub (even if they are good players, of course) instead of team russia-caliber players (Tryamkin, Tkachyov, etc.) just because they don't play for C/SKA
 

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