Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland (Builder) Join HHOF

[The Panther]

What all of this boils down to is that some hockey fans (say, me) think there should actually be very strict standards for who gets into the Hall of Fame -- which, you know, makes the Hall of Fame a more elite and venerated institution --, whereas some other hockey fans think every medium-talent stay-at-home defenseman who was a top shut-down guy (i.e., about 500 defencemen in the past ten years) should be given Participation-ribbons and lollipops for free membership in the Hall of Fame!

The Hockey of Fame may as well just send this message out to every 4th-liner and bottom-pairing defencemen struggling to hold onto an NHL career:

 

[Samus44]

What all of this boils down to is that some hockey fans (say, me) think there should actually be very strict standards for who gets into the Hall of Fame -- which, you know, makes the Hall of Fame a more elite and venerated institution --, whereas some other hockey fans think every medium-talent stay-at-home defenseman who was a top shut-down guy (i.e., about 500 defencemen in the past ten years) should be given Participation-ribbons and lollipops for free membership in the Hall of Fame!

The Hockey of Fame may as well just send this message out to every 4th-liner and bottom-pairing defencemen struggling to hold onto an NHL career:

That's a degree of hyperbole that can only be described as asinine.

 

[Samus44]

People need to put down the "7 All Star Appearances" Kool-Aid. Lowe appeared in some All Star games as a replacement for injured players, and in some because Glen Sather was picking the team. John Scott and Chris Nilan played in the All-Star game, too.

Here's Lowe's history of actual season-end All Star selections:

-- (nothing)

Here's Ray Bourque's:

-- Thirteen x 1st
-- Six x 2nd

Here's Kevin Lowe's Norris voting finishes:

-- 5, 7, 8, 10

Here's Ray Bourque's:

-- 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 7, 7, 7


Guess which one is a legit Hall of Famer?

Ray Bourque would probably be voted the 2nd greatest dman of all time, maybe 3rd after Lidstrom. Pick a more reasonable comparison if you want to make a legit and honest point. To me it seems your just trolling. I can understand an argument against Lowe in the HoF, I can't understand how not being remotely comparable to Bourque is a reasonable argument against it. If even coming remotely close to that was the standard there would be 5-10 dmen in the Hall. Just ridiculous. Are you going to compare every forward to Howe as to whether they should get in too. smh.

 

[The Panther]

That's a degree of hyperbole that can only be described as asinine.

asinine

/ ˈæs əˌnaɪn /
(adjective)

1. foolish, unintelligent, or silly; stupid:
It is surprising that supposedly intelligent people can make such asinine statements.

2. of or like the induction of Canadian retired defenceman Kevin Lowe into the Hockey Hall of Fame:
asinine obstinacy; asinine features.

 

[Samus44]

asinine

/ ˈæs əˌnaɪn /
(adjective)

1. foolish, unintelligent, or silly; stupid:
It is surprising that supposedly intelligent people can make such asinine statements.

2. of or like the induction of Canadian retired defenceman Kevin Lowe into the Hockey Hall of Fame:
asinine obstinacy; asinine features.

I'm aware of what the word means. Thanks for yet another asinine reply. Perhaps you're on the wrong board, maybe you should go make unreasonable comparisons and hyperbolic statements elsewhere. Crying about Lowe's selection on the Flames board might provide a more sympathetic forum for your asinine commentary. It's pretty clear you aren't garnering a ton of support with your asinine trash posting here. If you want to make a reasonable argument then go ahead but considering the fact you've resorted to such asinine tact in an attempt to legitimize which is quite honestly not that hard of an argument to make I doubt your capable of such rational process. If you can't understand how it's asinine to say that 500 dmen as good played over the past decade, that Lowe was mediocre, or how not having a Bourque-esq resume invalidates a player from being HoF worthy then no one here can help you. You're going to have to accept that Lowe is in, he DID make 7 All Star teams, and he DID win 7 major Championships and was a core player and key contributor on most of them. It's crazy that despite everyone here likely agreeing that Lowe is a low end selection you can't make a rational argument that doesn't resort to asinine comparisons and statements.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Kinda obvious but whatever.
He's saying he thinks Lowe is the worst dman in the HOF and doesn't deserve to be there.
Thought its kinda obvious .
And he's right (about not belonging in the HoF). #2 (at best) ,#3 dmen shouldn't bee seen anywhere close. If he wasn't as fortunate as he was to be drafted by a team that had all those legit HoF, hes a step up from a journeyman dman

He's also saying everyone in the HHOF is equal.

So im glad that Hossa = gretzky.

 

[oljimmy]

I'd love to know if there's another NHL D-man from the modern 'voting' era who is in the HHOF but never even got a 4th place Norris vote. This seems really unlikely, right? Zubov got a 3rd place vote in 2005–06. Doug Wilson won it in '82. Next down the recent inductee list are Pronger, Housley, Lidstrom, Blake. All either won or got at least a couple of 3rd place votes (Housley). Neidermeyer won it. Chelios won it twice. I can see the argument against Lowe here... he is not in this class. If we accept that multiple career-spanning Norris votes are a good indicator of talent, Lowe is clearly the least talented NHL defenseman to be inducted since 2000.

 

[McShogun99]

I've always thought that Lowe should have been inducted years ago. Like I posted earlier, 1st ever Oiler draft pick, scored the 1st ever goal in team history, numerous all star selections, 6 Stanley Cups while being a key member of each of those teams. What probably got him into the Hall besides those accolades is his work for Hockey Canada after he retired as a player. Lowe is highly respected by his former team mates and by members of hockey Canada. He's not Orr, Bourque, Coffey or Lidstrom but he's worthy of being inducted.

 

[Samus44]

I'd love to know if there's another NHL D-man from the modern 'voting' era who is in the HHOF but never even got a 4th place Norris vote. This seems really unlikely, right? Zubov got a 3rd place vote in 2005–06. Doug Wilson won it in '82. Next down the recent inductee list are Pronger, Housley, Lidstrom, Blake. All either won or got at least a couple of 3rd place votes (Housley). Neidermeyer won it. Chelios won it twice. I can see the argument against Lowe here... he is not in this class. If we accept that multiple career-spanning Norris votes are a good indicator of talent, Lowe is clearly the least talented NHL defenseman to be inducted since 2000.

Like it or not the Hall of Fame has always considered Stanley Cups as providing merit and nobody else not in the Hall has his resume in that regard post expansion. Stanley Cups elevate everything in the hockey world and winning a best on best Canada Cup is also a big deal. Only Provost and Backstrom, whom won 6 and 9 cups respectively with the original 6 Canadians, have 6 or more Cups and aren't in the Hall. Both of them have also merited consideration afaik and are considered some of the most accomplished players of their era not to be in. In fact of the 25 players with 6 or more Cups only 7 of them did so not exclusively with the Canadians and that includes Dick Duff who won 4 of his 6 as a Hab. I'd suggest his reputation for being elite defensively, a trait that has no major award for dmen to win despite oddly enough the Selke existing for forwards, is a big part of the reason some believe his role was bigger than awards and points may give credit for. Lowe is certainly one of the "worst" dmen in the Hall of Fame, if not the worst, but somebody has to be and given his team success and role on those clubs it probably makes sense that he would be that guy. I honestly always expected him to get in given the precedent of other inductees like the aforementioned Dick Duff.

 

[Barrsy]

I've always thought that Lowe should have been inducted years ago. Like I posted earlier, 1st ever Oiler draft pick, scored the 1st ever goal in team history, numerous all star selections, 6 Stanley Cups while being a key member of each of those teams. What probably got him into the Hall besides those accolades is his work for Hockey Canada after he retired as a player. Lowe is highly respected by his former team mates and by members of hockey Canada. He's not Orr, Bourque, Coffey or Lidstrom but he's worthy of being inducted.

He’s not close. Look at the dmen in there. He’s not in that universe. 1st ever goal scored, 1st draft pick. Irrelevant. Same as Cups ( he was fortunate to be on a juggernaut JT). All star selections (zero, all star games are not all stars).
Good player. Good guy. Glue guy. 2/3 dmen belong nowhere close to the HHOF.
Point in fact he is easily the worst d man there.

 

[Barrsy]

Ray Bourque would probably be voted the 2nd greatest dman of all time, maybe 3rd after Lidstrom..

Get off the pipe.
Potvin, Harvey, Park, Robinson....etc.
it’s a legit discussion. He’s likely top 5. Maybe 2. But it’s a discussion

 

[Samus44]

Get off the pipe.
Potvin, Harvey, Park, Robinson....etc.
it’s a legit discussion. He’s likely top 5. Maybe 2. But it’s a discussion

If you think Larry Robinson or Brad Park would be considered better than Bourque by any democratic process I don't know what to tell you. Doug Harvey is a legit choice to considered, as would be say Eddie Shore, but neither player is likely to be ranked above Bourque by a democratic process in this day and age and the Norris trophy actually predates Shore and the beginning of Harvey's career. The game was vastly different. Potvin obviously merits consideration too but he is often overlooked, likely due to playing not as long, but I wasn't exactly trying to list every possible consideration. My point wasn't that there couldn't be a discussion about where Bourque fits in among the greats it was that he would very likely be considered top 3 and has a resume that is nearly incomparable given his longevity, stats, current day relevancy, and two way prowess. If that's the most egregious thing you could fabricate an argument against it must have been pretty sound.But yeah sure there Mr. Straw Man I'm the one who needs to "get off the pipe". lol.

 

[Barrsy]

If you think Larry Robinson or Brad Park would be considered better than Bourque by any democratic process I don't know what to tell you. Doug Harvey is a legit choice to considered, as would be say Eddie Shore, but neither player is likely to be ranked above Bourque by a democratic process in this day and age and the Norris trophy actually predates Shore and the beginning of Harvey's career. The game was vastly different. Potvin obviously merits consideration too but he is often overlooked, likely due to playing not as long, but I wasn't exactly trying to list every possible consideration. My point wasn't that there couldn't be a discussion about where Bourque fits in among the greats it was that he would very likely be considered top 3 and has a resume that is nearly incomparable given his longevity, stats, current day relevancy, and two way prowess. If that's the most egregious thing you could fabricate an argument against it must have been pretty sound.But yeah sure there Mr. Straw Man I'm the one who needs to "get off the pipe". lol.

Robinson yes.
Park likely no. But Park was unfortunately (for him) the 2nd best dman in an era when there was Orr.
In any event, its a brutal joke Lowe in in the HHOF. #2/3 dmen dont belong anywhere close.

 

[Morpheus]

So is the Hockey Hall of Fame gonna have a pair of Lowe’s Micron skates on display soon?

 

[iCanada]

Ah yes, great induction into the Hall of decent players that the media didn't hate.

Last thing this arrogant assclown and any poor bastard unlucky enough to have to interface with him on a daily basis needs is for him to get a shot in the arm of time lost glory. If that prick has a shrink, the poor professional will need one themselves; the poor excuse of a manager already had the biggest ego I've ever seen and the remarkable ability to shove his own superiority complex in any face that came within a god damned city block.

Dark day for the city of Edmonton.

 

[oljimmy]

Like it or not the Hall of Fame has always considered Stanley Cups as providing merit and nobody else not in the Hall has his resume in that regard post expansion. Stanley Cups elevate everything in the hockey world and winning a best on best Canada Cup is also a big deal. Only Provost and Backstrom, whom won 6 and 9 cups respectively with the original 6 Canadians, have 6 or more Cups and aren't in the Hall. Both of them have also merited consideration afaik and are considered some of the most accomplished players of their era not to be in. In fact of the 25 players with 6 or more Cups only 7 of them did so not exclusively with the Canadians and that includes Dick Duff who won 4 of his 6 as a Hab. I'd suggest his reputation for being elite defensively, a trait that has no major award for dmen to win despite oddly enough the Selke existing for forwards, is a big part of the reason some believe his role was bigger than awards and points may give credit for. Lowe is certainly one of the "worst" dmen in the Hall of Fame, if not the worst, but somebody has to be and given his team success and role on those clubs it probably makes sense that he would be that guy. I honestly always expected him to get in given the precedent of other inductees like the aforementioned Dick Duff.

I guess I can see this, fair enough. It all depends on how much emphasis you put on the word "fame" in "Hockey Hall of Fame". If it's really fame that matters, then being a 1/2 D on 6 cup winning teams is sufficient. But it's also just a little embarrassing for the HHOF in my view, because Lowe is such an 'insider' NHL guy with a million connections who kept his later jobs far longer than he should have; given his comparatively low calibre, it can look a lot like buddies doing favors for each other.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Not to be a jerk but Lowe shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame... He played on teams that had star players... he never eclipsed 50 points either. If he's in the HHOF then so should Huddy

 

[McTonyBrar]

Would you have heard of Lowe if it were him? It's no secret that most bottom rung Hall of Famers benefitted from ideal circumstances and wouldn't have otherwise become Hall of Famers. Glenn Anderson, Clark Gillies, Dick Duff, Joe Nieuwendyk...none of them are going to the Hall if they didn't play most of their careers on elite teams.

In general, all the multi-Cup winners get one of these "best of the rest" inductions after the first ballot guys. Anderson was that guy for the Oilers. Or so it seemed. I had more or less assumed that Lowe's managerial track record had long since quashed any remote chance of him ever getting inducted. Even with the bad Carbonneau, Housley, and Andreychuk inductions occurring.

I'll say this, if voters in the 2040s treat the current generation the way the 1980s generation has been treated, expect to see guys like Ryan O'Reilly, Brent Seabrook, and Eric Staal getting inducted.

Ummm Nieuwendyk and Glenn Anderson MADE their teams elite..

 

[Samus44]

Ummm Nieuwendyk and Glenn Anderson MADE their teams elite..

I've been gathering that Nieuwendyk has become crazy underrated in time.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Ummm Nieuwendyk and Glenn Anderson MADE their teams elite..

You feel the 1985 Oilers and 1989 Flames, for example, would not have been elite teams without the services of Anderson and Nieuwendyk?

For the record, I'm fine with both those guys being in the Hall of Fame. They'd have received my vote. But there's zero chance either of them make the Hall if they spend their prime years on weak teams.

 

[oilexport]

Very interesting selection. I would have never thought he would have made it.

It's kinda like a Ryan smith thing with strong heart and soul contributions. Lowe is definitely dedicated and to me, it's a lifetime achievement award based on hockey passion. He sucked at G.M. I thought he was a good coach, he should have stayed at coaching at least for a couple more years.

Steady defenceman and fierce for a few years, but no way should he be in hall as a player.

 

[bucks_oil]

I'd love to know if there's another NHL D-man from the modern 'voting' era who is in the HHOF but never even got a 4th place Norris vote. This seems really unlikely, right? Zubov got a 3rd place vote in 2005–06. Doug Wilson won it in '82. Next down the recent inductee list are Pronger, Housley, Lidstrom, Blake. All either won or got at least a couple of 3rd place votes (Housley). Neidermeyer won it. Chelios won it twice. I can see the argument against Lowe here... he is not in this class. If we accept that multiple career-spanning Norris votes are a good indicator of talent, Lowe is clearly the least talented NHL defenseman to be inducted since 2000.

Name the last time the Norris was actually given to the best defensive defenseman. Offensive numbers are seemingly 90% of the vote criteria.

if there were a d-man Selke, Lowe would have had a couple in the mid-late eighties and several more top three finishes in the vote.

if you can’t put the best defensive d-man (for a decade) on one of the best teams in modern history (last true dynasty) in the hall... then you are setting the bar unreasonably high for that type of player.

and yes I’d be ok with Foote or even Vlasic if he’d had more hardware.

Lowe is to D-men and leaders as Gainey was to forwards.

and Clarke Gillies is in based on similar rationale.

 

[bucks_oil]

Very interesting selection. I would have never thought he would have made it.

It's kinda like a Ryan smith thing with strong heart and soul contributions. Lowe is definitely dedicated and to me, it's a lifetime achievement award based on hockey passion. He sucked at G.M. I thought he was a good coach, he should have stayed at coaching at least for a couple more years.

Steady defenceman and fierce for a few years, but no way should he be in hall as a player.

he sucked for the Comrie trade...

But after losing Cujo for nothing and Weight for scraps he recovered quite well. We were very well positioned with great role players (In the Lowe MacT mode) coming out of the 2006 lockout.

and that’s what allowed us to add Pronger, Peca, Spacek, Samsonov, Roloson, and Tarnstrom in the space of 8 months.... and we gave up what... Brewer, woywitka, some other college D, Reasoner, a 1st and a couple other picks? (A 2nd and a 7th if memory serves?)

I mean... c’mon. That’s some legendary GM’n

I think Lowe was heartbroken after that SCF loss and lost it from then forward, but the guy had some chops to build that team in the first place. By far the best TEAM we ever had despite only a modicum of talent after Pronger. That takes a certain eye.

 

[yukoner88]

he sucked for the Comrie trade...

But after losing Cujo for nothing and Weight for scraps he recovered quite well. We were very well positioned with great role players (In the Lowe MacT mode) coming out of the 2006 lockout.

and that’s what allowed us to add Pronger, Peca, Spacek, Samsonov, Roloson, and Tarnstrom in the space of 8 months.... and we gave up what... Brewer, woywitka, some other college D, Reasoner, a 1st and a couple other picks? (A 2nd and a 7th if memory serves?)

I mean... c’mon. That’s some legendary GM’n

I think Lowe was heartbroken after that SCF loss and lost it from then forward, but the guy had some chops to build that team in the first place. By far the best TEAM we ever had despite only a modicum of talent after Pronger. That takes a certain eye.

Losing cujo for nothing was a gamble made by Sather.

For the record glad he did, willfully shutting down the Avs at their prime the way cujo did in 98 was nothing short of legendary.

 

[bucks_oil]

Losing cujo for nothing was a gamble made by Sather.

For the record glad he did, willfully shutting down the Avs at their prime the way cujo did in 98 was nothing short of legendary.

Right on, thanks for the correction (and agree). Sather had already won that trade anyway (Corson for Cujo and Grier, right?), so in a way it was "found money" already