Keith Primeau (Red Wings Years/Departure/What Ifs)

[Jim MacDonald]

Good Evening HoH Friends!

I hope everyone is doing well!

I wanted to get some thoughts/feedback education on Keith Primeau, focusing on his Red Wings tenure/departure by trade and maybe a "what if." Shooting from the hip--

1. It seemed like the consensus was Primeau "couldn't finish" while with the Wings. Do you agree with this assessment? In conjunction, was Primeau known as a offensive force/goal scorer in juniors? (If memory serves me correctly, I believe reading he played for the Niagra Falls Thunder in the OHL?).

2. I also read in his rookie season he only had scored 15 points in like his first 58 games, so the Wings brass sent him to the minors to "develop him more slowly" or something to that effect. I wonder if anyone knows what the impetus was for his initial struggles?

3. I viewed the 95 finals through a "teenager lens" as oppose to an adult (observing nuances etc). I had read Primeau was actually considered the best Wing forward going into the final (not Fedorov, not Yzerman) because he was playing an exemplary two-way game. Would anyone say his injury in the finals (and subsequent inability to play) was perhaps an "underrated reason" the Wings got swept?

4. The 95-96 season seems to be a "significant regression" from what I gather for whatever reason. Please correct me if this isn't accurate. I don't know if logistically or roster-wise we can do this what-if, but say the Wings are able to get Shanahan while being able to keep Primeau. Does Primeau succeed at some point in Bowman's system (going back to the strong 94-95 playoff form)?

Look forward to everyones responses. It's always fun to read answers to my posts. I appreciate you guys and gals-Jim

 

[tabness]

Hey Jim, hope you're doing well brother.

While Primeau had initial growing pains adjusting to the NHL, I think at least some of it was expected given the Wings depth at center. He had to come up with a trio of Yzerman, Fedorov, Carson, all 1Cs in their own right, and already a struggle for Bryan Murray to manage icetime.

It's interesting to look back now given the sour note of how Primeau's career ended in Detroit, but it was Scotty Bowman who really took a liking (in as much as Scotty took a liking to any player) to Primeau and really gave him his shot which he handled very well after Yzerman's injury early in 1993-1994. I should note that Primeau did get a sniff at more of a shot after Carson was traded in 1992-1993 as well, but Dallas Drake was having a real good rookie season and Bryan Murray was a fan of his, and so it didn't really materialize like the year after with Yzerman's injury (also Scotty hated Drake and was quoted in the papers calling him "the dumbest f***ing player I've ever coached").

So Primeau had his breakout during 1993-1994, he got a big center role after Yzerman went down, and even as Yzerman returned, he returned playing wing a lot, especially on Primeau's wing. But the 1993-1994 Wings were the most run and gun instances of Red Wings in a long time, and of course Yzerman was playing with him a lot so the stats may be a bit flattering. Primeau was still a bit inconsistent in his play that year.

This was sort of Scotty's feel out year, and of course a more cynical and conspiratorial (and likely correct) view is that Scotty was having power games with Murray who was still GM that year and so didn't bother to coach the team in his style yet.

1994-1995 was truly when Primeau came of age. This was under the defensive focused Red Wings, and Primeau was firmly the team's 2C behind Fedorov that year, with Yzerman relegated to 3C duties or playing wing. Primeau really soared with the confidence that Bowman put in him. There was no question how critical he was to to team, although this is now forgotten he is an absolutely hated figure in Wings history and known as Primeaudonna.

And yes, he was even better that playoff year. Fedorov had the stats, but you could definitely say that Primeau was just as important. And having him hurt for the finals really hurt the Wings, alongside the other injuries to big guys they had (Coffey, Yzerman). He could have stood up to the crash and bang Devils nicely if he was at 100%. Wings got smoked, maybe they get smoked less with Primeau healthy. Who knows, they sort of gave up after game 2 anyway, but those first couple games were closer than the last two, and had they gotten a split, maybe the Wings don't fall apart so easily.

1995-1996 was the reason Primeau is so hated now in Detroit. He absolutely half assed it basically the entire regular season. While Yzerman basically forced Scotty to change his opinion on him, and Fedorov soared with the Russian Five even if he did start sulking a bit, Primeau was truly a primadonna. He didn't want to play wing anymore given his success at center the past two years. But Scotty didn't give it to him for free, and Yzerman really reasserted himself.

For playoffs, to be honest, I had rewatched the Wings Avs 1996 series after the ESPN special came out a few years ago, and Primeau did look better with fresh eyes. He couldn't finish at all, but he was trying at least that series more than he did the whole year. He was at least involved physically. But that disappointing loss and Primeau's complete lack of finish and attitude meant he was out.

Still, unlike many of the other Wings unceremoniously traded, Mike Ilitch liked Primeau, and saw him as a centerpiece for the future, it was only when Primeau sat out that he was traded with Coffey for Shanahan, and the rest is history.

Here's (the rumored) "the list" of Scotty Bowman after the 1993-1994 season when Murray was fired and Scotty took on the Director of Player Personnel, Primeau was truly one of Bowman's guys at that time. He played his way off the team and on the new shit list in just a couple years lol

 

[connellc]

Good assessment, and to be honest the number of centers the wings had was crazy. Yzerman, Larionov, Fedorov, Draper, Taylor and Greg Johnson were all centers at the time in 1996, so where does Keith fit in ice time?

Plus, I may be reading into a bit much into this this, but Probert (the teams respected enforcer) did get into a fight with him in practice. That doesn't happen often, and you have to think there was a bit more off ice issues that were not reported to the media.

As a 13-year-old kid, I did think the trade was steep. Coffey was coming off a solid season and decent WC, Primeau was decent, and they also threw in a 1st round pick. That's a lot for Shanny, but in the end it was totally worth it.

One thing I noticed about Keith is he never had that "grace" of an NHL player. Sometimes he would slip and fall, the puck would roll off his stick, or sometimes completely miss a check and run into the boards. I'm not saying this was frequent, but enough to cognizant.

Oh and there's no way they win a Cup with Primeau and Coffey and not Shanny. That trade cemented the Red Wings as a cup threat all the way until the lockout.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel there is many ways they win at least one cup without Shanahan....

There is a world people say no way Avalanche win it without Forsberg against the Devils if he played well in the finals, they would have been too thin after the first line.

There is a world where people say it is impossible for a team to win a cup when Dumoulin-Ron Hansey is your number 1 pair, no way they go back to back without Letang if he win that Smythe that year (or play even just close to 2016)

No way the Oilers win one with Gretzky gone, no way Gretzky does not win one more, many narratives that could have easily existed that does not (like the Yzerman is not a winner, they will never win with him).

Bowman-
Lidstrom-Coffey-Konstantinov-Fetisov-Ramsey-Rouse

Kovlov-Errey-Maltby-Grimson
Fedorov-Yzerman--Larionov-Primeau-Draper
Ciccarelli-Brown-McCarty-Lapointe

Osgood-Vernom

With ownership ready to spend the most on salary in league history (and maybe forever), cannot find a way to win a single cup before the lock-out without a specific move is a lack of imagination imo. And maybe underrating what having Lidstrom playing 29 minutes in half every playoff game edge it give them over almost all others teams they will face.

They would have been one of the most stacked team of all time either way, you have a ownership that outspend the Rangers with a prestigious 06 jersey, Scotty Bowman and Yzerman as your captain to attract talent in a pre-cap free agency world...

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Hey Jim, hope you're doing well brother.

While Primeau had initial growing pains adjusting to the NHL, I think at least some of it was expected given the Wings depth at center. He had to come up with a trio of Yzerman, Fedorov, Carson, all 1Cs in their own right, and already a struggle for Bryan Murray to manage icetime.

It's interesting to look back now given the sour note of how Primeau's career ended in Detroit, but it was Scotty Bowman who really took a liking (in as much as Scotty took a liking to any player) to Primeau and really gave him his shot which he handled very well after Yzerman's injury early in 1993-1994. I should note that Primeau did get a sniff at more of a shot after Carson was traded in 1992-1993 as well, but Dallas Drake was having a real good rookie season and Bryan Murray was a fan of his, and so it didn't really materialize like the year after with Yzerman's injury (also Scotty hated Drake and was quoted in the papers calling him "the dumbest f***ing player I've ever coached").

So Primeau had his breakout during 1993-1994, he got a big center role after Yzerman went down, and even as Yzerman returned, he returned playing wing a lot, especially on Primeau's wing. But the 1993-1994 Wings were the most run and gun instances of Red Wings in a long time, and of course Yzerman was playing with him a lot so the stats may be a bit flattering. Primeau was still a bit inconsistent in his play that year.

This was sort of Scotty's feel out year, and of course a more cynical and conspiratorial (and likely correct) view is that Scotty was having power games with Murray who was still GM that year and so didn't bother to coach the team in his style yet.

1994-1995 was truly when Primeau came of age. This was under the defensive focused Red Wings, and Primeau was firmly the team's 2C behind Fedorov that year, with Yzerman relegated to 3C duties or playing wing. Primeau really soared with the confidence that Bowman put in him. There was no question how critical he was to to team, although this is now forgotten he is an absolutely hated figure in Wings history and known as Primeaudonna.

And yes, he was even better that playoff year. Fedorov had the stats, but you could definitely say that Primeau was just as important. And having him hurt for the finals really hurt the Wings, alongside the other injuries to big guys they had (Coffey, Yzerman). He could have stood up to the crash and bang Devils nicely if he was at 100%. Wings got smoked, maybe they get smoked less with Primeau healthy. Who knows, they sort of gave up after game 2 anyway, but those first couple games were closer than the last two, and had they gotten a split, maybe the Wings don't fall apart so easily.

1995-1996 was the reason Primeau is so hated now in Detroit. He absolutely half assed it basically the entire regular season. While Yzerman basically forced Scotty to change his opinion on him, and Fedorov soared with the Russian Five even if he did start sulking a bit, Primeau was truly a primadonna. He didn't want to play wing anymore given his success at center the past two years. But Scotty didn't give it to him for free, and Yzerman really reasserted himself.

For playoffs, to be honest, I had rewatched the Wings Avs 1996 series after the ESPN special came out a few years ago, and Primeau did look better with fresh eyes. He couldn't finish at all, but he was trying at least that series more than he did the whole year. He was at least involved physically. But that disappointing loss and Primeau's complete lack of finish and attitude meant he was out.

Still, unlike many of the other Wings unceremoniously traded, Mike Ilitch liked Primeau, and saw him as a centerpiece for the future, it was only when Primeau sat out that he was traded with Coffey for Shanahan, and the rest is history.

Here's (the rumored) "the list" of Scotty Bowman after the 1993-1994 season when Murray was fired and Scotty took on the Director of Player Personnel, Primeau was truly one of Bowman's guys at that time. He played his way off the team and on the new shit list in just a couple years lol

View attachment 1034872

Tab it's ever SO good to see/hear from you! I honestly thought you might have some tidbits, and to say that is an UNDERSTATEMENT! Thank you for kinda spelling out the timeline/challenges Primeau faced. Man....it's interesting a player would take such a "hard line stance" on the position they play. If Primeau swallowed his pride and was willing to play wing in 95-96, what if his stock continued to soar as a 200 foot guy? Maybe the "can't finish" moniker would become irrelevant!

Not that I wondered why, but Bowman's thoughts on Dallas Drake had me dying....no wonder he was part of the Cheveldae-Essensa trade package! LOL.

I enjoyed reading the newspaper clipping top to bottom too. Appreciate you attaching it!

 

[Michael Farkas]

Primeau has stated that he hated playing wing because of the straight line, start and stop nature of them (his thoughts)...liked the freewheeling nature of being a center. Not sure if that's necessarily the best assessment of it, but he played in the NHL and I didn't haha - that said, it's tough to "cruise" into defense. What I've always told my penalty killers over the years: good penalty kill is fast, a great penalty kill starts and stops. So, I imagine that Bowman would have grown exhausted of Primeau at some point, even if he could hide him on the wing.

Connellc mentioned his lack of grace...yeah, he wasn't the greatest athlete I've ever seen. Sort of "boxy", not the most fluid.

A couple more tidbits:
- The Wings/Primeau were a zillion miles apart going in the 96-97 season in terms of contract. The Wings offered 6 years at about $10 mil total. Primeau's team sent back that he wanted to be more like $3 mil per.

- Primeau was booed and taunted considerably in his first game back at the Joe to add to @tabness ' account of him being hated in Detroit.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Hey Jim, hope you're doing well brother.

While Primeau had initial growing pains adjusting to the NHL, I think at least some of it was expected given the Wings depth at center. He had to come up with a trio of Yzerman, Fedorov, Carson, all 1Cs in their own right, and already a struggle for Bryan Murray to manage icetime.

It's interesting to look back now given the sour note of how Primeau's career ended in Detroit, but it was Scotty Bowman who really took a liking (in as much as Scotty took a liking to any player) to Primeau and really gave him his shot which he handled very well after Yzerman's injury early in 1993-1994. I should note that Primeau did get a sniff at more of a shot after Carson was traded in 1992-1993 as well, but Dallas Drake was having a real good rookie season and Bryan Murray was a fan of his, and so it didn't really materialize like the year after with Yzerman's injury (also Scotty hated Drake and was quoted in the papers calling him "the dumbest f***ing player I've ever coached").

So Primeau had his breakout during 1993-1994, he got a big center role after Yzerman went down, and even as Yzerman returned, he returned playing wing a lot, especially on Primeau's wing. But the 1993-1994 Wings were the most run and gun instances of Red Wings in a long time, and of course Yzerman was playing with him a lot so the stats may be a bit flattering. Primeau was still a bit inconsistent in his play that year.

This was sort of Scotty's feel out year, and of course a more cynical and conspiratorial (and likely correct) view is that Scotty was having power games with Murray who was still GM that year and so didn't bother to coach the team in his style yet.

1994-1995 was truly when Primeau came of age. This was under the defensive focused Red Wings, and Primeau was firmly the team's 2C behind Fedorov that year, with Yzerman relegated to 3C duties or playing wing. Primeau really soared with the confidence that Bowman put in him. There was no question how critical he was to to team, although this is now forgotten he is an absolutely hated figure in Wings history and known as Primeaudonna.

And yes, he was even better that playoff year. Fedorov had the stats, but you could definitely say that Primeau was just as important. And having him hurt for the finals really hurt the Wings, alongside the other injuries to big guys they had (Coffey, Yzerman). He could have stood up to the crash and bang Devils nicely if he was at 100%. Wings got smoked, maybe they get smoked less with Primeau healthy. Who knows, they sort of gave up after game 2 anyway, but those first couple games were closer than the last two, and had they gotten a split, maybe the Wings don't fall apart so easily.

1995-1996 was the reason Primeau is so hated now in Detroit. He absolutely half assed it basically the entire regular season. While Yzerman basically forced Scotty to change his opinion on him, and Fedorov soared with the Russian Five even if he did start sulking a bit, Primeau was truly a primadonna. He didn't want to play wing anymore given his success at center the past two years. But Scotty didn't give it to him for free, and Yzerman really reasserted himself.

For playoffs, to be honest, I had rewatched the Wings Avs 1996 series after the ESPN special came out a few years ago, and Primeau did look better with fresh eyes. He couldn't finish at all, but he was trying at least that series more than he did the whole year. He was at least involved physically. But that disappointing loss and Primeau's complete lack of finish and attitude meant he was out.

Still, unlike many of the other Wings unceremoniously traded, Mike Ilitch liked Primeau, and saw him as a centerpiece for the future, it was only when Primeau sat out that he was traded with Coffey for Shanahan, and the rest is history.

Here's (the rumored) "the list" of Scotty Bowman after the 1993-1994 season when Murray was fired and Scotty took on the Director of Player Personnel, Primeau was truly one of Bowman's guys at that time. He played his way off the team and on the new shit list in just a couple years lol

View attachment 1034872

People forget Primeau absolutely bullying Chelios in the 1995 conference finals.