Bryanbryoil
Pray For Ukraine
- Sep 13, 2004
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Keeping Players Around Because "They're Nice Guys"
- Thread starter Bryanbryoil
- Start date
Same applies to nice coaches and nice GM who keeps playing the same players who makes mistakes after mistake, game after game. We got Pickard, Campbell, Carrick, Broberg, Lavoie etc all knocking on doors. What's the point of recalling them if we keeping them hanging.
MoontoScott
Registered User
- Jun 2, 2012
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I
He places a huge premium on "getting along" with others and is very cognizant of locker room relations. He likes to be friends with players.
That's ok to some extent but being a gentleman doesn't make you a success on the ice. Messier, Anderson, Tikannen (and especially Sather behind the bench) would all be examples that come to mind about guys who didn't worry about the nice stuff. You had the gentlemen like Gretzky and Kurri but the mix was more complicated than that.
People's feelings get hurt if they get benched or demoted but its a game where you make 50 times what your average person does so no tears shed for anybody. I might be wrong but I think that's part of the reason that Stu wasn't pulled before he was.
I think that most of what you are talking about relates back to Holland.
He places a huge premium on "getting along" with others and is very cognizant of locker room relations. He likes to be friends with players.
That's ok to some extent but being a gentleman doesn't make you a success on the ice. Messier, Anderson, Tikannen (and especially Sather behind the bench) would all be examples that come to mind about guys who didn't worry about the nice stuff. You had the gentlemen like Gretzky and Kurri but the mix was more complicated than that.
People's feelings get hurt if they get benched or demoted but its a game where you make 50 times what your average person does so no tears shed for anybody. I might be wrong but I think that's part of the reason that Stu wasn't pulled before he was.
DynamiteKid
Registered User
If you only equate "gentlemen" to not fighting, than you'd be correct, but #99 had no issues running up the score and potting 5-6 points in a game. He had a killer instinct that today's Oilers are seriously lacking.
MoontoScott
Registered User
- Jun 2, 2012
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Quite right.
Gretzky was more passive aggressive but he didn't hesitate to let you know who your Daddy was.
KeithIsActuallyBad
You thrust your pelvis, huh!
"Loilty" or some nonsense.
I always come back to a team like Vegas who isn't afraid to hurt feelings in order to win. MAF cost them that series against the Habs back in 2021 and the Knights gave him the boot despite the backlash. Doubt they care now. Vegas would've found a way to introduce Nurse and Ceci to new homes by now. They would've cut bait with the useless bottom six (looking squarely at you Foegele and McLeod), and I fully believe they would've fired other useless organizational members without a second thought.
Just a few off the top of my head but Bob Nicholson is an absolute pustule on this team. Hired two deadbeat GMs because they were his friends as we end up spinning tires forever. Dustin Schwartz has been with the team for more than a decade as we continue to have goaltending problems year after year. The scouts that can't identify talent at any level...
Fitting with this theme is when the team traded Barrie last year despite how beloved he was in the room. Barrie played one lousy game for the Preds in the playoffs, meanwhile Ekholm is far and away our best defenseman. We need more of that and less of the media hobags telling us how "X is good in the room" when that doesn't mean shit. Ceci could cure cancer and that still doesn't make him a good defenseman. Nurse I know does a lot of charity work and is good friends with McDavid and Draisatl but that doesn't justify his continued shitty play in the playoffs.
The Oilers are boy scouts to a fault. "You can't squeeze other GMs" is the prime example of this mindset that the only way to win a Stanley Cup is not take advantage of others. I doubt the Avs care that they totally fleeced the Isles for Devon Toews when they couldn't afford him. But don't worry because we got Duncan Keith to.... well, I don't even know what he did. I'm sure he was fine in the room but that didn't translate on the ice.
I wouldn't go as far to say that the Oilers need to be cold hearted but like... If a player sucks on the ice then he needs to leave. Sorry but winning is more important in sports than maintaining friendships.
I always come back to a team like Vegas who isn't afraid to hurt feelings in order to win. MAF cost them that series against the Habs back in 2021 and the Knights gave him the boot despite the backlash. Doubt they care now. Vegas would've found a way to introduce Nurse and Ceci to new homes by now. They would've cut bait with the useless bottom six (looking squarely at you Foegele and McLeod), and I fully believe they would've fired other useless organizational members without a second thought.
Just a few off the top of my head but Bob Nicholson is an absolute pustule on this team. Hired two deadbeat GMs because they were his friends as we end up spinning tires forever. Dustin Schwartz has been with the team for more than a decade as we continue to have goaltending problems year after year. The scouts that can't identify talent at any level...
Fitting with this theme is when the team traded Barrie last year despite how beloved he was in the room. Barrie played one lousy game for the Preds in the playoffs, meanwhile Ekholm is far and away our best defenseman. We need more of that and less of the media hobags telling us how "X is good in the room" when that doesn't mean shit. Ceci could cure cancer and that still doesn't make him a good defenseman. Nurse I know does a lot of charity work and is good friends with McDavid and Draisatl but that doesn't justify his continued shitty play in the playoffs.
The Oilers are boy scouts to a fault. "You can't squeeze other GMs" is the prime example of this mindset that the only way to win a Stanley Cup is not take advantage of others. I doubt the Avs care that they totally fleeced the Isles for Devon Toews when they couldn't afford him. But don't worry because we got Duncan Keith to.... well, I don't even know what he did. I'm sure he was fine in the room but that didn't translate on the ice.
I wouldn't go as far to say that the Oilers need to be cold hearted but like... If a player sucks on the ice then he needs to leave. Sorry but winning is more important in sports than maintaining friendships.
not only that- he was famous back in the day for saying "this is my puck, if you want it you have to take it from me"
Holland actually bragged after the deadline about not having to move a roster player...lol
Pass the Saitl Sauce
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- Apr 30, 2015
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McDNicks17
Moderator
I feel like Holland was so useless that his solution to "no one wants to play in Edmonton" was to bring in a bunch of guys who were buddies with players on the team.
Then he was too worried about hurting people's feelings to get rid of any of them.
Then he was too worried about hurting people's feelings to get rid of any of them.
VainGretzky
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- Jun 4, 2015
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The Oilers have dominated the last 2 games and had a big lead in 1st game, this is not from a team that is not trying, it's a goaltender who buckles under pressure
The "nice guy" BS isn't even as much a concern for personnel for me (although that is a problem too), but more so how the organization conducts itself with the league.
Look across the aisle in this series. If you hooked a lie detector up to Tocchet, he would probably tell you that he knows his team is one of the worst offenders with diving in the NHL, knows that if they lose calls/get held accountable for it the Oilers would roll them, but also knows that by saying something he sets the narrative for the series and plants doubt when a ref sees something that was a dive, but was it a dive? Can't be a dive because Tocchet says he hates diving..... maybe McDavid just dove?
We never do this and I'm f***ing tired of it. It is unfathomable for me that we can get so constantly f***ed by referees, DoPS, etc, etc for no reason other than we are too soft as an organization to stand up for ourselves and call bullshit bullshit. The nice guy "we just put our head down and play hockey over here!" makes us an easy mark. How hard would it be for Knoblauch to say "Tocchet had some concerns with diving before the series saying guys shouldn't get called anymore if they dive, wonder if any of that has changed in light of what we've seen from a few of their key players lately." Puts the onus on him to say something, takes the heat off the team, re-adjusts the focus on the Nucks diving, where it should be. No chance at a fine either. But no, no, that's a little mean.
Every other "contending" team has already played the game within the game to some degree. We just shrug our shoulders and ask whether we should drop our pants to our feet or keep them at the knees.
Look across the aisle in this series. If you hooked a lie detector up to Tocchet, he would probably tell you that he knows his team is one of the worst offenders with diving in the NHL, knows that if they lose calls/get held accountable for it the Oilers would roll them, but also knows that by saying something he sets the narrative for the series and plants doubt when a ref sees something that was a dive, but was it a dive? Can't be a dive because Tocchet says he hates diving..... maybe McDavid just dove?
We never do this and I'm f***ing tired of it. It is unfathomable for me that we can get so constantly f***ed by referees, DoPS, etc, etc for no reason other than we are too soft as an organization to stand up for ourselves and call bullshit bullshit. The nice guy "we just put our head down and play hockey over here!" makes us an easy mark. How hard would it be for Knoblauch to say "Tocchet had some concerns with diving before the series saying guys shouldn't get called anymore if they dive, wonder if any of that has changed in light of what we've seen from a few of their key players lately." Puts the onus on him to say something, takes the heat off the team, re-adjusts the focus on the Nucks diving, where it should be. No chance at a fine either. But no, no, that's a little mean.
Every other "contending" team has already played the game within the game to some degree. We just shrug our shoulders and ask whether we should drop our pants to our feet or keep them at the knees.
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McDNicks17
Moderator
Skinner is just another "great dude" that Holland was worried about hurting his feelings at the deadline.
KeithIsActuallyBad
You thrust your pelvis, huh!
And the Oilers probably would've shitcanned nice guy Holland had McDavid not bailed his ass out a couple years ago.
It's an organizational mentality that friendship is more important than winning. It's why we have such a useless bottom nine, second pairing, and pair of goalies.
VainGretzky
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McDNicks17
Moderator
VainGretzky
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McDNicks17
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Oilhawks
Oden's Ride Over Nordland
- Nov 24, 2011
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If they truly cared about his feelings, they should consider that he will get torn apart by boos, razzes etc tomorrow on home ice
He absolutely has to sit.
Mr Positive
Cap Crunch Incoming
- Nov 20, 2013
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I really don't think anything like this has happened. If there are upgrades available, we get it. It's just not as easy to make huge changes as we assume, and all teams struggle with it.
Like Ceci for instance. We were ready to ship him out in a trade for Tanev. If we just put Stecher there, be prepared to hate Stecher more than you hate Ceci.
As for playing Skinner, every time it has been because we thought he was giving us the best chance to win on a given night. He is notorious for mixing in good games with bad. I have little doubt that if we lose this round because of him, he is gone or at least reduced to backup
Like Ceci for instance. We were ready to ship him out in a trade for Tanev. If we just put Stecher there, be prepared to hate Stecher more than you hate Ceci.
As for playing Skinner, every time it has been because we thought he was giving us the best chance to win on a given night. He is notorious for mixing in good games with bad. I have little doubt that if we lose this round because of him, he is gone or at least reduced to backup
McDNicks17
Moderator
Other teams with GMs getting paid significantly less are able to make this happen. Hell, the team we are playing right now made how many trades throughout the season.
Absolutely. By his own admission, he is mentally struggling right now with the pressure. He is grossly underestimating how much energy it takes to get out of that space. For his own health, he shouldn’t be playing. I also hate when coaches say “we’ll talk to Dusty.” Seriously, what has Schwartz ever accomplished that you need his counsel.
Shanahanigans
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- Jun 16, 2011
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Holland is Tambellini who was gifted Mcdavid, Draisaitl, and a bunch of Chia draft picks. Nice guy has nothing to do with it, poor management does.
Lay Z Boy GM
Registered User
I wish I could see manager meetings over the last 3-4 years. Anyone that casually watches this team could give you a concise list of what we REALLY need (goalie, top4 dman, depth scoring). It’s the same list for Hollands entire tenure, I feel like a decent gm could have solved all of these issues within 3-5 years. Just solve ONE of these issues, get a goalie or that top 4 dman, just pick one.
I’d say 7 of our bottom 9 players are “nice guys”. Kane and Perry are not nice but at times they do too much.
I’d say 7 of our bottom 9 players are “nice guys”. Kane and Perry are not nice but at times they do too much.
Mr Positive
Cap Crunch Incoming
- Nov 20, 2013
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Sure, but this is totally different than not making moves because they like guys because they are nice or fit in too much.
We didn't make these moves because we have no cap space, while a team like Vancouver had tons to spend. So this is more of an incompetence problem, blowing cap on Campbell, etc.
Also the Henrique add was a good one. Just bad luck about the injury. He has what we lack in the depth: play awarenss
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