News Article: Karlsson and Dorion/Melnyk didn't talk after November

[BatherSeason]

That quote doesn't make all that much sense though.

Ottawa offered Karlsson a contract on July 1st, we know that for sure.
Ottawa then gave Karlsson permission to negotiate with other teams on an extension. That, according to all reports, happened on July 3rd.

Based on that timeline - we can assume that Karlsson rejected the offer on July 1st or 2nd, and the team knew they wouldn't be able to sign him once that offer was turned down. They then quickly gave his camp the ability to look at other options and so they can facilitate a trade.

So what was Melnyk reaching out about?

• The status of Ottawa's offer? If Karlsson hadn't rejected it yet - why did Ottawa grant him permission to negotiate with other teams?
• The status of his negotiations with other teams? Did Melnyk and Dorion have a trade lined up with someone else and need Karlsson to agree to an extension?

There was never an offer. The organization knew where they stood on Karlsson months before this "supposed' offer took place. Karlsson was not playing on a team owned by Eugene Melnyk period, the organization knew it, thus PR Dorion's summer hibernation.

 

[BatherSeason]

Me thinks Karlsson is lying to not hurt the fans.

What is he lying about?? The fact that a man who destroyed the hockey club he has poured his heart and soul into wanted a face to face meeting and Karlsson declined, they still didn't talk.

Very curious to why some of you in here continue to ignore the fact that the people

Are you a fan of this hockey team? Do you not think it is in the best interest of the organization to get rid of Melnyk? Why defend him?

 

[BonkTastic]

Are you a fan of this hockey team? Do you not think it is in the best interest of the organization to get rid of Melnyk? Why defend him?

Suggesting a hypothetical scenario to help theoretically explain for variables we don't have any information about does not make you "not a fan of this team".

 

[coladin]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Yes, if we avg. 12k a game, and ticket prices haven't changed, then it's pretty bad considering we used to be at 18k-19k. But it seems like those were one offs that could be found in many buildings around the league. (including playoff non-sellouts which I can find has happened to 10+ teams)

However, I don't understand the debate around attendance of 16k vs 18k. What if the team increased prices and made more revenue off of 16k than they did at 18k? Shouldn't revenue be the measure of business performance? The last few years the team revenue seems to be pretty stable around 120 million according to Forbes.

Sens fans are already easily in the top ten fanbases when it comes to money spent per capita on the team by fans in the market. What is a reasonable amount of spending per fan in Ottawa? 3x what Toronto fans spend. 5x? 10x?

The point is the team was not supported like the other Canadian franchises. Even in the playoffs to great international embarrassment. I don't care about American markets that didn't sell out. I am looking at our country, and that whole "Hockey is Canada" BS. In Ottawa, hockey is a product and we are not fans, but consumers. 120M is not enough here. 130-135M is what this team needs to compete. When the owner had the money and the cap was half of what it is today, he spent. When the cap took off, he didn't increase his spending.

This market cannot support higher prices. Only lower. The tarped seats were 25 bucks. i don't want to get into the tail chasing routine, because then you will probably mention concessions, Phoenix, parking, traffic, etc...

Dude showed a video of a great glimpse of the playoffs that Karlsson had. And he was underappreciated. Period. There should never be empty seats to watch that guy, and glad he can play in front of a full house. He deserved better. Come on, 11,069. Almost in the 10s.

If the team was playing to the capacities of other Canadian markets, and they could not sign Karlsson, I would be super pissed. But because we had tarps last year, we will never know because the owner can point and say that revenues lopped of $10M in revenues and made these types of contracts unrealistic.

 

[Ice-Tray]

There was never an offer. The organization knew where they stood on Karlsson months before this "supposed' offer took place. Karlsson was not playing on a team owned by Eugene Melnyk period, the organization knew it, thus PR Dorion's summer hibernation.

I though that it's been established that there was an offer, one that was supposedly around $88 million for 8 seasons, but without the du jour bonus structure.

Are you saying that there is new information countering this? I ask because I have seen the offer reported on by many in the media, but I haven't yet seen a report that no offer was made.

 

[BatherSeason]

Suggesting a hypothetical scenario to help theoretically explain for variables we don't have any information about does not make you "not a fan of this team".

Never said he was or he wasn't, I was simply asking a question.

 

[BatherSeason]

I though that it's been established that there was an offer, one that was supposedly around $88 million for 8 seasons, but without the du jour bonus structure.

Are you saying that there is new information countering this? I ask because I have seen the offer reported on by many in the media, but I haven't yet seen a report that no offer was made.

It was mentioned by Chris Stevenson in a column on July 2nd and the rest of the media ran with it. Odd that a contract offer took place and was leaked to the media when this organization did everything in their power to avoid the media for months.

 

[BonkTastic]

Never said he was or he wasn't, I was simply asking a question.

The implication was there.

 

[NorthCoast]

The point is the team was not supported like the other Canadian franchises. Even in the playoffs to great international embarrassment. I don't care about American markets that didn't sell out. I am looking at our country, and that whole "Hockey is Canada" BS. In Ottawa, hockey is a product and we are not fans, but consumers. 120M is not enough here. 130-135M is what this team needs to compete. When the owner had the money and the cap was half of what it is today, he spent. When the cap took off, he didn't increase his spending.

This market cannot support higher prices. Only lower. The tarped seats were 25 bucks. i don't want to get into the tail chasing routine, because then you will probably mention concessions, Phoenix, parking, traffic, etc...

Dude showed a video of a great glimpse of the playoffs that Karlsson had. And he was underappreciated. Period. There should never be empty seats to watch that guy, and glad he can play in front of a full house. He deserved better. Come on, 11,069. Almost in the 10s.

If the team was playing to the capacities of other Canadian markets, and they could not sign Karlsson, I would be super pissed. But because we had tarps last year, we will never know because the owner can point and say that revenues lopped of $10M in revenues and made these types of contracts unrealistic.

But you have no idea if the recent attendance is because of lower demand in the market or because of a change in pricing policy. My understanding is that there was a dramatic shift in pricing policy a few years back to increase revenues. This change in strategy reduced the number of $25 tickets in order to sell fewer tickets, but at higher prices. Probably they felt the low-end tickets diminished the value of the product and were trying to reset the price perception of hockey in the market.

-------EDIT--------

I finally re-found the quote:

Not surprisingly, Ottawa's attendance has lagged. According to ESPN, the Senators stand 23rd in the 31-team NHL, averaging 16,196 spectators. Melnyk downplayed the low turnout.

"It's always a concern if you are not analyzing who's not coming," he said. "In the case of our attendance it's actually the cheapest seats [that aren't selling].

"A lot of that has to do with previous discounting policies where we had 40 different promos going on at one time."

-------EDIT--------

The market is what the market is. You can charge high prices and get 15k fans or low prices and get 18k fans, and at the end of the day you are probably going to end up around the same place revenue wise because the demand is what it is. Winnipeg sells out most of it's games but has a much smaller capacity and most of the tickets are sold well-under market value because the team promotes reselling/sharing of season tickets, so most people pay season ticket prices despite maybe only going to one game a year. Do you honestly believe that the difference between Ottawa being a cap floor team vs Winnipeg being a cup contender comes down to gate revenue?

Sorry, shaming and blaming customers is not how you increase demand. Improve your product, change location, expand your product line, etc. ie: TSN Deal, Winter classic, move to Lebreton...these are all good moves the TEAM can make to increase revenue.

If Ottawa cannot keep up with cap increases then it is not on the market to magically increase ticket demand 20-30% with the same population base. Rather, it is on the league to fix the business model for mid-market teams through revenue sharing and better national TV deals that even out revenue for all teams.

Hey, I get the frustration. But the market is what it is. I just think it is unrealistic to expect it to magically change and I don't see why other similar sized markets are able to have success, with relatively the same gate revenue, yet in Ottawa it's the fans fault.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It was mentioned by Chris Stevenson in a column on July 2nd and the rest of the media ran with it. Odd that a contract offer took place and was leaked to the media when this organization did everything in their power to avoid the media for months.

Time line seems to work, It was the day after free agency opened if you're correct about times.

Obviously once an offer is made there are immediately several other avenues for leaking information since several other people are involved beyond PD, and no one from EK's camp is denying it after Bruce mentioned it specifically on air a few times.

I'm not sure why anyone would doubt it at this point as it would appear to be the accepted truth.

 

[Sun God Nika]

I still believe if we won Dahlin it would have been a pittsburgh penguins level turnaround for this franchise, Karlsson would have stayed, sens would increase attendance dramatically maybe even to pre 2014 levels with regular sellouts, Melnyk would add and everyone would be happy

 

[mysens]

There was never an offer. The organization knew where they stood on Karlsson months before this "supposed' offer took place. Karlsson was not playing on a team owned by Eugene Melnyk period, the organization knew it, thus PR Dorion's summer hibernation.

Sorry, you are wrong. I know for a fact he was offered a market rate offer. The only issue was the no money up front. No bonus. That's it. EM does not have the bonus structure money. Why do you think Stone signed one year at a decent market rate. Because EM has no upfront money. So, everyone, keep holding out on supporting your players, it's working, EM is doing what he said. No big money players are being signed because of the sad fan base.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Sorry, you are wrong. I know for a fact he was offered a market rate offer. The only issue was the no money up front. No bonus. That's it. EM does not have the bonus structure money. Why do you think Stone signed one year at a decent market rate. Because EM has no upfront money. So, everyone, keep holding out on supporting your players, it's working, EM is doing what he said. No big money players are being signed because of the sad fan base.

The 11 Million for 8 years was mentioned today, on Hockey Central at Noon, by Doug MacLean.

So that's the third person, in the Media that has mentioned the same numbers in the offer made to EK65.

 

[Sensung]

The 11 Million for 8 years was mentioned today, on Hockey Central at Noon, by Doug MacLean.

So that's the third person, in the Media that has mentioned the same numbers in the offer made to EK65.

Without the bonus money and NMC it is well below market value.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I still believe if we won Dahlin it would have been a pittsburgh penguins level turnaround for this franchise, Karlsson would have stayed, sens would increase attendance dramatically maybe even to pre 2014 levels with regular sellouts, Melnyk would add and everyone would be happy

Any thing that would prolong Melnyk staying is a net negative imo.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Without the bonus money and NMC it is well below market value.

Well below.

Yeah, that's what it is.


lol

 

[Gil Gunderson]

I still believe if we won Dahlin it would have been a pittsburgh penguins level turnaround for this franchise, Karlsson would have stayed, sens would increase attendance dramatically maybe even to pre 2014 levels with regular sellouts, Melnyk would add and everyone would be happy

I think it would take a lot more than that tbh.

 

[NorthCoast]

Well below.

Yeah, that's what it is.


lol

Shifting 10 million from the last years of a 11 mil per year contract to the first years is actually a pretty big difference. Like 4-5 million dollars in additional interest that the player can make by having the money paid up front.

A NMC can prevent a star player from being traded away from a city where he has lucrative sponsorship agreements. Never mind the non-quantifiable worth of the clause to a player and their family.


You can say it's not important but the facts clearly are against you as these terms are table stakes now if you look at pretty much any recent contract with a star player.

 

[Acidrain66]

The 11 Million for 8 years was mentioned today, on Hockey Central at Noon, by Doug MacLean.

So that's the third person, in the Media that has mentioned the same numbers in the offer made to EK65.

With the bonuses?? Or is it hearsay from the media folks??

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Can we really expect Dorion and Melnyk to have handled this properly? End result Karlsson is gone. Dorion and Melnyk should be taken to the woodshed and beaten with an axe

 

[Grizwald]

Sorry, you are wrong. I know for a fact he was offered a market rate offer. The only issue was the no money up front. No bonus. That's it. EM does not have the bonus structure money. Why do you think Stone signed one year at a decent market rate. Because EM has no upfront money. So, everyone, keep holding out on supporting your players, it's working, EM is doing what he said. No big money players are being signed because of the sad fan base.

No credible hockey player will ever sign with the Senators as long as Eugene Melnyk remains the face of the franchise, and this has been especially true since Bryan Muarry's death. But you know everything about our "sad" fan base, many of whom have spent tens of thousand of dollars buying tickets before finally being forced to protest Menlyk turning this once proud franchise into an 'effin clown show. You should keep to your shtick about floating rumours regarding the potential sale of the team that most of us already know about - keep boosting your ego while pretending to be the honest-to-goodness real 'cough' insider 'vomit'.

 

[BatherSeason]

With the bonuses?? Or is it hearsay from the media folks??

The media has lied to the fanbase almost as much as the organization does.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

IT

IS

NOT

A

FAIR

MARKET

VALUE

OFFER

IF

THERE

WAS

NO

BONUS

MONEY

 

[TheGeneral]

The 11 x 8 years is likely a leak out from agents as a base mark. Details of the contract weren't leaked.. the assumption is that it wasn't as good as what Karlsson wanted which is why he didn't sign.

Is it possible it was and Karlsson didn't want to be here? Yes technically.. but no given the circumstances of the team.

Look at the Tavares contract as the best, most recent example. A truck load of money up front. Very little relatively speaking each year thereafter. Melynk and the senators dont have the capital to sign that cheque.

This allows the player to have guarunteed money. Biggest thing is lockout protection. If there's a lockout season, the players don't get paidu, but if you got you got your money up front.. what do you care you're not getting your 500k? You got your other 10.5 on day one. That also allows the player to invest and grow that money.

So in summation, yes. 11x8 equally distributed over the 8 years is far below market value assuming this was the structure, which is a safe bet.

 

[TheGeneral]

IT

IS

NOT

A

FAIR

MARKET

VALUE

OFFER

IF

THERE

WAS

NO

BONUS

MONEY

This was much more succinct than my post. Hahaha