Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[SA16]

If KK is playing at a 60 point effectiveness I believe he will play more than 15 minutes.

By the way I gave KK grief last season because he only had 6 assists all season. He already has 2 assists this season. That is great!

I don't believe that. There are tons of players who have scored over 2+ pts/60 that got less than 15 minutes of ice time.

Panarin/Trocheck/Lafreniere are the only forwards that averaged over 15 mins of 5v5 time. Kreider got 12:35. Kakko isn't going to play more than Kreider. So if Kreider only got 12:35 at 5v5 how is Kakko getting that much more given he is not going to get Kreiders PP/PK time as well? Kreider has never even hit 14 mins per game at 5v5 for example.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I don't believe that. There are tons of players who have scored over 2+ pts/60 that got less than 15 minutes of ice time.

That does not mean they would be 60 point players but show me who you mean and then I will see for myself what the circumstances. You can not extrapolate small samples sizes and assume all will stay the same over larger sample sizes. Per 60 does not equate to much to me.

 

[SA16]

That does not mean they would be 60 point players but show me who you mean and then I will see for myself what the circumstances. You can not extrapolate small samples sizes and assume all will stay the same over larger sample sizes. Per 60 does not equate to much to me.

That is exactly what you just did when you said if Kakko is playing at 60 point effectiveness then he will play more than 15 minutes.

 

[noncents]

If KK is producing at a higher level he will get more playing time. If he is not producing as hoped he will get less playing time. It is not personal. Coaches are always going to want to play guys that are producing at a significantly higher than expected level more often.

not how it works. coaches make errors or play favorites all the time. coaches play vets they feel they can trust not to lose them games. playing a veteran is defensible from a coaching perspective. playing young players with potential that goes unfulfilled is how coaches get fired.

the catch-22 is that a player has to produce to get ice time, but get ice time to produce.

the "way out" of this is often for a young player to find a fit on a line of vets.

 

[SA16]

Last year Lafreniere led PP2 at 1:16 TOI/game.
Two years ago Chytil/Lafreniere tied for the lead at 1:22/game (among players on the team all year)

Last year Kreider got 12:35/game at 5v5 and an additional 1:05 of 4v4/3v3.
Two years ago Kreider got 12:35/game at 5v5 and an additional 0:43 of 4v4/3v3.

Kakko does not play on the PK, and over the last two years has averaged 21 seconds a game of 4v4/3v3 time.

Where is he finding much above 20 minutes?

If you take the highest of the last two years of Kreider 5v5+Kakko 4v4/3v3+Lafreniere's leading PP2 time you get 12:36 + 0:21 + 1:22 = 14:19.

The PP2 ice time isn't going to increase and even if the 4v4/3v3 time did a bit (unlikely) it doesn't move the needle much. You think he's going to get more 5v5 time than Kreider has had in any season of his career (13:52)? That's basically the only way he's getting much over 15 mins without a bunch of injuries.

It has nothing to do with how well he does. There's only so much ice time and there isn't room for him to get much more.

 

[noncents]

if the 3rd line is gonna get more 5v5 shifts it will come at the expense of the 4th line and possibly the 1st.

Let 20/93 eat on PP and roll PK with carrick/smith, and bump up 50/72/24 at evens.

 

[NickyFotiu]

That is exactly what you just did when you said if Kakko is playing at 60 point effectiveness then he will play more than 15 minutes.

I do not think your interpretation of what I said was my intention. There are guys with great motors whose production rates will increase with more minutes and there are guys whose production rates will decline with more minutes. Some players reach places of diminishing returns with added minutes. If you show me the guys you are speaking about we can judge if they would be legit 60 point scorers if given more minutes. I do not know why teams would want to stop any of their players from scoring 60 points.

 

[NickyFotiu]

not how it works. coaches make errors or play favorites all the time. coaches play vets they feel they can trust not to lose them games. playing a veteran is defensible from a coaching perspective. playing young players with potential that goes unfulfilled is how coaches get fired.

the catch-22 is that a player has to produce to get ice time, but get ice time to produce.

the "way out" of this is often for a young player to find a fit on a line of vets.

Coaches are humans. Humans make errors. While that is true I do not know any coaches that knowingly play lesser players for significant amounts of time. Their jobs, salaries, and reputations depend on winning games. I do not believe in any conspiracy theory against KK by Lav or any of KK's other 2 coaches. If KK produces he will get more ice time imo. In fact its of the best interest of the team and coach for younger lower salary guys to be able to play significant minutes. If Lav of any coach was playing KK less out of some sort of personal reason Drury and Rangers management would be asking why. It is just not logical for an organization to be against KK for any reason. The better KK plays the better the team does and the more Drury and the coaches succeed.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I see that he’s really trying to get to and stay at the net front. Looking for tips and screens. Hopefully results in some scrappy goals

 

[IDvsEGO]

Coaches are humans. Humans make errors. While that is true I do not know any coaches that knowingly play lesser players for significant amounts of time. Their jobs, salaries, and reputations depend on winning games. I do not believe in any conspiracy theory against KK by Lav or any of KK's other 2 coaches. If KK produces he will get more ice time imo. In fact its of the best interest of the team and coach for younger lower salary guys to be able to play significant minutes. If Lav of any coach was playing KK less out of some sort of personal reason Drury and Rangers management would be asking why. It is just not logical for an organization to be against KK for any reason. The better KK plays the better the team does and the more Drury and the coaches succeed.

Lavi has also said he does believe in giving opportunities, and last season he tried to give Kakko those. And I saw it, and it just didn’t click. He’s done a better job than i expected at pushing some of our kids, and not just laf. He pushed cuylle, he’s thrown jones in (this game notwithstanding) , and there’s a lot of good stuff he’s done that’s really taken advantage of our better players.
And Kakko does a lot of things that most coaches love.

 

[SA16]

Lavi has also said he does believe in giving opportunities, and last season he tried to give Kakko those. And I saw it, and it just didn’t click. He’s done a better job than i expected at pushing some of our kids, and not just laf. He pushed cuylle, he’s thrown jones in (this game notwithstanding) , and there’s a lot of good stuff he’s done that’s really taken advantage of our better players.
And Kakko does a lot of things that most coaches love.

It doesn't really matter what opportunities he wants to give him. The ice time isn't available. There's no PP1 role for him. He's not going more time than Panarin/Trocheck/Lafreniere. Zibanejad/Kreider have been in the 13ish mins of 5v5 time per game for years. Sure, he can get more ice time if they want to play him on the PK but that's not something that's going to boost his numbers or anything.

 

[noncents]

Coaches are humans. Humans make errors. While that is true I do not know any coaches that knowingly play lesser players for significant amounts of time. Their jobs, salaries, and reputations depend on winning games. I do not believe in any conspiracy theory against KK by Lav or any of KK's other 2 coaches. If KK produces he will get more ice time imo. In fact its of the best interest of the team and coach for younger lower salary guys to be able to play significant minutes. If Lav of any coach was playing KK less out of some sort of personal reason Drury and Rangers management would be asking why. It is just not logical for an organization to be against KK for any reason. The better KK plays the better the team does and the more Drury and the coaches succeed.

you ain't listenin bruv. nobody saying anything about conspiracy theories or personal reasons for KK not playing.

you're also invoking this "lesser player" language which is a false binary.

coaches don't willingly ice players they think are worse. they do however play veterans that they think won't make mistakes over young players who might. it happens all the time.

 

[NickyFotiu]

you ain't listenin bruv. nobody saying anything about conspiracy theories or personal reasons for KK not playing.

you're also invoking this "lesser player" language which is a false binary.

coaches don't willingly ice players they think are worse. they do however play veterans that they think won't make mistakes over young players who might. it happens all the time.

If 1 player makes more mistakes and the other player makes less mistakes and produces more who should the coach play?

KK is a 5 year vet. He plays solid defensively. That has not been an issue for KK with Lavi. If KK produces he will get more ice time imo. Nobody wants to see KK go on a scoring tear more than our coaches and management. They would love it. They could put him on a top line and have a lot more flexibility than they have had lately.

It is just like Krav. Our coaches were not against Kran. Nor were the Canucks coaches. They wanted Krav to play better. At that point in time Krav just was not ready to play at a high level.

 

[noncents]

If 1 player makes more mistakes and the other player makes less mistakes and produces more who should the coach play?

if 1 player makes more mistakes but might produce if given a shot, and another makes fewer mistakes and produces very little, who does the coach play?

 

[IDvsEGO]

if 1 player makes more mistakes but might produce if given a shot, and another makes fewer mistakes and produces very little, who does the coach play?

Different coaches have different answers.

Some coaches give vets more leeway than rookies for the exact same style of play and mistakes.
Some coaches don’t have great track records w European players

Some coaches will bet on the risk reward because they believe the mistakes can be correctable

Some coaches want low event hockey from certain players and high event from others.

 

[NickyFotiu]

if 1 player makes more mistakes but might produce if given a shot, and another makes fewer mistakes and produces very little, who does the coach play?

Coaches will play both within reason. Coaches will play the one that they think gives them the better chance to win in their respective situations more.

Maybe you should debate this with a more intelligent person than myself.

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

I was so damn high on Kakko but he won't become shit in the NHL (not on our team at least).

He is Finnish but has no "sisu".
Uses a way too short stick.
Skates like Jason Allison.

If he wasn't drafted 2nd overall he wouldn't even be dressed for most of the games.

Lazy, fat, and unimpressive is what he has become. Lethargic looking mofo is what he is.

 

[Cuckoo4Kakko]

I was so damn high on Kakko but he won't become shit in the NHL (not on our team at least).

He is Finnish but has no "sisu".
Uses a way too short stick.
Skates like Jason Allison.

If he wasn't drafted 2nd overall he wouldn't even be dressed for most of the games.

Lazy, fat, and unimpressive is what he has become. Lethargic looking mofo is what he is.

Rangers are 4-0-1. Our 3rd line has been fairly impressive throughout.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I was so damn high on Kakko but he won't become shit in the NHL (not on our team at least).

He is Finnish but has no "sisu".
Uses a way too short stick.
Skates like Jason Allison.

If he wasn't drafted 2nd overall he wouldn't even be dressed for most of the games.

Lazy, fat, and unimpressive is what he has become. Lethargic looking mofo is what he is.

do you actually watch the games?
or just look at a box score?

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

do you actually watch the games?
or just look at a box score?

Kakko takes dumb penalties and he never puts up any points.

He hasn't done shit since being drafted.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Kakko takes dumb penalties and he never puts up any points.

He hasn't done shit since being drafted.

So that’s a no.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This KK thread sometimes looks like one of those glass half full and glass have empty tests. Seems like some people see a bust. Other people see a stud who is only held back by coaches and minutes played. I personally am in a I will just wait and see what happens mode.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

at this point considering his draft status yeah he's been a bust. if he wasn't it would be him playing with zib and kreider instead of reilly smith.

but by no means does that mean he's totally useless. from what i've seen he's not doing anything that's hurting the team. that line's job is to provide decent quality play while the 2 main lines rest up. if anything some time as the season progresses i can see all 3 in that line start putting up some points and possibly carry the team when the 2 main lines start to slump.

 

[NickyFotiu]

at this point considering his draft status yeah he's been a bust. if he wasn't it would be him playing with zib and kreider instead of reilly smith.

but by no means does that mean he's totally useless. from what i've seen he's not doing anything that's hurting the team. that line's job is to provide decent quality play while the 2 main lines rest up. if anything some time as the season progresses i can see all 3 in that line start putting up some points and possibly carry the team when the 2 main lines start to slump.

I personally do not hold his draft position against him. That was not his choice. I would suggest people totally look away from his draft position when looking at KK as a player. The only exception is that draft position could still help in terms of trade value if another team thinks he could live up to that draft position in a new city.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Rangers are 4-0-1. Our 3rd line has been fairly impressive throughout.

What does our record have to do with this discussion?