Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko: Part IV

[MysticLeviathan]

That shift in o.t was great.He had the puck on his stick and basically said"f*** off,this puck is mine"..and that pass to Buch was beautiful

You can more easily do that in Europe because of the larger ice surface. And in 3 on 3, you have all the space in the world. He’d never get that space in 5 on 5. Another defender would move away from his man for a second to chip in and knock Kakko off the puck. I hope we can see more puck domination from him. You can see the kind of player he is. And if he can shoot the puck like he did in the shootouf, he can be really dangerous.

 

[AlaBlueShirt]

Kid just turned 20. A future superstar that’s for sure. I really don’t agree with some of the bs Quinn does with the kids but the way Kakko has turned in to a 2-way player is something I never expected out of him.

 

[BB88]

I love how the argument for why Kakko wasn’t producing points was because he was on a line with Howden.

Now, he gets moved onto a line with our best player, our most skilled player, our most creative player, and the guy carries his line night in and night out, yet it’s now...Kakko and Panarin aren’t good together.

I mean, in my best Lebron voice...sheesh.

At some point, Kakko has to start producing points. It’s not happening on the PP, when he gets time. It’s not happening on a line with Panarin, one of the best players in the league.

I keep being told the points are coming though.

Well done, you’ve managed to be patienced for around 10 games with a 19/20y kid

 

[Sockosensei]

Ya. I just can’t get stoked about 3v3 play. This is awesome and fun, but in the grand scheme of things? We need more in 5v5.

I can’t look at this and say “this is why I’m not worried about him..this 3v3 OT highlight.”

Two points to take from this 3v3 are that
(1) he's showing the attitude and confidence to be the Kaapo Kakko we saw pre-draft, without deferring to the vets,
(2) he can still find a lane to make a *smooth* pass.

What he needs to do better 5v5 is to get open for passes where he'll have room after receiving the pass. He is absolutely smart enough to learn this in time...and that's where our patience comes in.

Once he figures this out, we'll be talking about his chemistry with Panarin.

 

[Mikos87]

Starting to feel good out there again right? Getting a little pissed off helps sometimes, gets the juices flowing a bit. The rest follows- that's talent taking over. Really good to see in Ranger blue. BTW super impressed with his media game- did not see this last year.

 

[Mikos87]

Kid just turned 20. A future superstar that’s for sure. I really don’t agree with some of the bs Quinn does with the kids but the way Kakko has turned in to a 2-way player is something I never expected out of him.

Yeah that benching after the first game worked. Not sure who would be so insensitive to encourage something like that to a 19 year old making that kind of money, but Kakko's done nothing but earn that ice time. He's putting the work in every shift, the offense will come. Bread's gonna do Bread- his utility and offensive output is up their with the league's best. If Kakko mirror's that on the other wing, he should start to get an extra chance or two per shift. Numbers will go up.

Edit: Per shift with offensive zone time.

 

[effen]

Kakko's been a man reborn this year, a legitimate NHL player and currently a better defensive forward than offensive forward (!!!). What I think will make him a top-liner or a middle sixer is being a half step faster in everything he does and developing his core strength. He does that and I can see him being a bigger Daniel Sedin type or maybe a Hossa at the top end. I don't see incredible vision or puck skills but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a large amount of equity in being a perrenial all-star who sniffs a Hart trophy once or twice in his career.

Very excited to see him grow.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Finally a goal but it doesnt count lol

Good for him to hit the back of the net and good on DQ for rewarding him

 

[rdhstlr23]

I hope you all are right. We have a superstar that is on a .325 ppg trend through his first 80 games.

At some point, a "superstar" would show himself...even at the ripe age of 19 or 20.

I mean, just look at this list of wingers NHL's Top 50 players going into 2020-21 season

I don't want to debate who they've ranked in the Top 50, but look at all those wingers listed in that Top 50. Kakko isn't remotely close to those "superstars" ppg pace in his first 80 games. The closest is Rantanen, at a .53 ppg clip, in his first full season at age 20.

And again, the age excuse is just an excuse. All of these guys were scoring at significantly better ppg clips at the ages of 18-20, than Kakko has.

I'm not arguing that Kakko hasn't looked good. He has!
I'm not arguing that Kakko won't be a good player. I think he will.

I'm arguing that he's going to be a superstar. If he's going to be a superstar, then he's going to buck the trend of showing that potential early in his career. Whether these guys are 18, 19, or 20, they tend to start seeing the production follow the analytics and good play.

 

[NickyLongLegz]

I hope you all are right. We have a superstar that is on a .325 ppg trend through his first 80 games.

At some point, a "superstar" would show himself...even at the ripe age of 19 or 20.

I mean, just look at this list of wingers NHL's Top 50 players going into 2020-21 season

I don't want to debate who they've ranked in the Top 50, but look at all those wingers listed in that Top 50. Kakko isn't remotely close to those "superstars" ppg pace in his first 80 games. The closest is Rantanen, at a .53 ppg clip, in his first full season at age 20.

And again, the age excuse is just an excuse. All of these guys were scoring at significantly better ppg clips at the ages of 18-20, than Kakko has.

I'm not arguing that Kakko hasn't looked good. He has!
I'm not arguing that Kakko won't be a good player. I think he will.

I'm arguing that he's going to be a superstar. If he's going to be a superstar, then he's going to buck the trend of showing that potential early in his career. Whether these guys are 18, 19, or 20, they tend to start seeing the production follow the analytics and good play.

Howden is garbage, and every time the second line starts to pressure, Strome kills it with an offensive zone penalty or by whiffing a nice pass from Kakko. We have literally no good centers right now. There’s a reason kakko was scoring with Chytil as his pivot. Also nobody but our fourth line players are scoring right now. So it’s more likely a problem that we have a skilled roster playing a fourth line grinder system right now.

 

[GigaChad]

It's crazy how many looks and chances he has every game for himself or for his teammate, but still hasn't gotten more points.
It's not about his shot or awarness but just shitty luck

 

[SnowblindNYR]

What is badass? Give me point totals.

I say he’s a 60 point/yr guy, which doesn’t constitute badass, IMO. He may get to 70 for his career year.

You know this based on 1.25 seasons?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

So part of me is encouraged by how well Kakko has been playing but part of me is discouraged that even with that good play he's not putting up points.

 

[rdhstlr23]

Howden is garbage, and every time the second line starts to pressure, Strome kills it with an offensive zone penalty or by whiffing a nice pass from Kakko. We have literally no good centers right now. There’s a reason kakko was scoring with Chytil as his pivot. Also nobody but our fourth line players are scoring right now. So it’s more likely a problem that we have a skilled roster playing a fourth line grinder system right now.

You don't think any of those guys had struggles with their team not scoring, or being paired with "grinder/shitty" linemates? They had those seasons because they were lucky to be paired with other skilled folks?

Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I don't think all of these guys were paired with superstuds on the top lines to start their careers. Again, "superstars" drive the play of lines. They make other guys better. They improve the play of the "Brett Howden's" of the world.

 

[rdhstlr23]

You know this based on 1.25 seasons?

It's an opinion. It's a message board where one shares opinions. Of course, I don't know! I could be absolutely wrong. However, based on what I've seen, he seems more like a producer in the manner Buchnevich or Kreider have been a producer.

I don't see the elite/superstar/top end player that I hoped he would be. Maybe it will come. I'm hoping!

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It's an opinion. It's a message board where one shares opinions. Of course, I don't know! I could be absolutely wrong. However, based on what I've seen, he seems more like a producer in the manner Buchnevich or Kreider have been a producer.

I don't see the elite/superstar/top end player that I hoped he would be. Maybe it will come. I'm hoping!

I can see your Buchnevich take because he creates but can't finish but your opinion is based on very little and you share it like he's 25 and not 20.

 

[rdhstlr23]

So part of me is encouraged by how well Kakko has been playing but part of me is discouraged that even with that good play he's not putting up points.

Agree. It's almost been more discouraging to me that he's not producing while playing well AND while playing on the same line as a Top 10 player in the NHL.

It's a tough pill for me to swallow.

Again, this is a me issue. My expectations are not being met. Kakko has been playing well and it sucks the points aren't there. Stars find a way to get points, though.

 

[The New Russian Five]

I hope you all are right. We have a superstar that is on a .325 ppg trend through his first 80 games.

At some point, a "superstar" would show himself...even at the ripe age of 19 or 20.

I mean, just look at this list of wingers NHL's Top 50 players going into 2020-21 season

I don't want to debate who they've ranked in the Top 50, but look at all those wingers listed in that Top 50. Kakko isn't remotely close to those "superstars" ppg pace in his first 80 games. The closest is Rantanen, at a .53 ppg clip, in his first full season at age 20.

And again, the age excuse is just an excuse. All of these guys were scoring at significantly better ppg clips at the ages of 18-20, than Kakko has.

I'm not arguing that Kakko hasn't looked good. He has!
I'm not arguing that Kakko won't be a good player. I think he will.

I'm arguing that he's going to be a superstar. If he's going to be a superstar, then he's going to buck the trend of showing that potential early in his career. Whether these guys are 18, 19, or 20, they tend to start seeing the production follow the analytics and good play.

Except that the age excuse IS an excuse. Not every player develops on the same timeline. Maybe he was expected to produce right away. Clearly something was missed by the scouts in that regard. But the talent is there and room for continued growth is there. His ceiling is still much higher than where he currently is at. This is obvious from just watching him, and the underlying analytics back this.

Patience is the word here.

 

[rdhstlr23]

I can see your Buchnevich take because he creates but can't finish but your opinion is based on very little and you share it like he's 25 and not 20.

So, what should I say if I think Kaapo Kakko isn't going to be the player we all hoped he would be? I should just have to sit on it until he's 25 and say "Knew it. Been holding it in for the last 5 years!"

When I compare him to Buchnevic it isn't a stylistic comparison, at all. Same with Kreider. It's purely a box score comparison, a total points comparison.

From a stylistic perspective, he's starting to get better at creating, but I haven't seen anything special there. I haven't seen any special scoring attributes either - no great shot, or ability to drive the net. He doesn't have some innate ability to "be at the right spot, at the right time". Some of those come with age, and I expect them too.

I just think he's going to wind up being a really solid mid-winger. A guy you count on for 60pts/season. That's good. That isn't a star. That isn't what we thought we were drafting.

 

[rdhstlr23]

Except that the age excuse IS an excuse. Not every player develops on the same timeline. Maybe he was expected to produce right away. Clearly something was missed by the scouts in that regard. But the talent is there and room for continued growth is there. His ceiling is still much higher than where he currently is at. This is obvious from just watching him, and the underlying analytics back this.

Patience is the word here.

I hope you're right. He would be going against the trend though. Star wingers usually show production at some point. I hope it's coming.

And I appreciate you being the first person to, at least, acknowledge the fact "he was expected to produce, but hasn't". That's a big key. That's a big reason for the frustration. Being sold that he's a franchise altering player and will produce right away, and getting .325 ppg through his first 80 games, is disappointing against those expectations.

But, when do we start getting worried? If he still struggles to score points for the next 3/4 of a season? How long before we start to come down to "he's talented, but maybe he'll never put it together to be a superstar." Personally, I'm there and I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Zub]

I agree with this, but at some point, that has to start producing points, right?

Being the best player on the ice that doesn’t score, isn’t that nice of a luxury is it?

Your saying the same thing over and over again.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

So, what should I say if I think Kaapo Kakko isn't going to be the player we all hoped he would be? I should just have to sit on it until he's 25 and say "Knew it. Been holding it in for the last 5 years!"

When I compare him to Buchnevic it isn't a stylistic comparison, at all. Same with Kreider. It's purely a box score comparison, a total points comparison.

From a stylistic perspective, he's starting to get better at creating, but I haven't seen anything special there. I haven't seen any special scoring attributes either - no great shot, or ability to drive the net. He doesn't have some innate ability to "be at the right spot, at the right time". Some of those come with age, and I expect them too.

I just think he's going to wind up being a really solid mid-winger. A guy you count on for 60pts/season. That's good. That isn't a star. That isn't what we thought we were drafting.

But you're basing it on nothing. Why are you itching to label him as something at 20? It sounds like you're more concerned about "sitting" for 5 years on this amazing bit of knowledge to you have acquired than his actual game. You REALLY want to be right about him sucking as early as possible.

 

[The New Russian Five]

I hope you're right. He would be going against the trend though. Star wingers usually show production at some point. I hope it's coming.

And I appreciate you being the first person to, at least, acknowledge the fact "he was expected to produce, but hasn't". That's a big key. That's a big reason for the frustration. Being sold that he's a franchise altering player and will produce right away, and getting .325 ppg through his first 80 games, is disappointing against those expectations.

But, when do we start getting worried? If he still struggles to score points for the next 3/4 of a season? How long before we start to come down to "he's talented, but maybe he'll never put it together to be a superstar." Personally, I'm there and I hope I'm wrong.

I'd be worried if he wasn't showing improvement. His underlying numbers are fantastic. The different of where he was last year and this year can't be overlooked. Imagine if he can make one more jump like that after the next off season.

I also wouldn't discount that this team looks like a dumpster fire right now and that I don't think Quinn knows how to handle him.

I would say that if he isn't starting to produce by next season, then we should start to worry.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I'm a huge Kakko fan and have backed him throughout his time here so I say this with nothing but hope and optimism about him as a player, but it's still worth saying that being the best forward on this team right now and playing much better than everybody else, doesn't actually equate to being a fantastic player as of yet.

He's good good underlying numbers and he looks much better than the other forwards. That's all good. But just like with Lafreniere I feel maybe we're overrating the chances he's getting and how close he's really come to putting up points. I don't blame him. I see that as a team wide issue. But I'm not sold that this season the points will just flood in.

I maintain that what's impressed me most is his confidence in himself. He's been snakebitten and icecold as a scorer this year but he ripped that puck in the shootout as if he had 10 goals on the year already. I'm really glad the drought isn't weighing on him. Maybe the one upside of his terrible rookie year is that he's less invested in the point totals.

 

[rdhstlr23]

But you're basing it on nothing. Why are you itching to label him as something at 20? It sounds like you're more concerned about "sitting" for 5 years on this amazing bit of knowledge to you have acquired than his actual game. You REALLY want to be right about him sucking as early as possible.

I am basing it on something. I'm basing it on his production compared to those we consider great players' point production at similar points in their careers.

I don't. To the contrary, I actually HOPE I'm dead wrong on him.

But again, if I can't bitch and complain on a message board, then where else can I do it? This is a place where someone should be able to state their opinions, hot takes, and factually based points. All of the above should be allowed.

I think Kakko isn't going to be the guy I thought he was. I'm going to continue to share that sentiment until either that proves to be correct, incorrect, or I change my expectation of him.

Originally, the opinion of Kakko was in lieu of a discussion on why I believe he should not be "untouchable" in any discussion for Jack Eichel. Kakko's inclusion doesn't make me walk away.