Player Discussion Juraj Slafkovsky Discussion

[Andy]

I'm not distinguishing between any of your posts or whatever, let's move forward.

Let's speak clearly -- I think it's fair to look at the most recent six game sample because that is when the Habs train started hitting the skids. If you insist to look as far back as the 4nations that's fair too but doesn't give any information about how Slaf plays in the most important games or when his linemate Suzuki is in less-than-stellar form. He's young and Suzuki is terrific, so deferring to Suzuki is to be expected but if Slaf would just shoot the puck more it would help a lot.

“I think it’s fair to look at a small sample size that benefits my argument”

I think a better indication is that in the last 25 games since the 4 nations break, Cole and Slaf have had about the production, including shots.

 

[CzarDemidov]

“I think it’s fair to look at a small sample size that benefits my argument”

I think a better indication is that in the last 25 games since the 4 nations break, Cole and Slaf have had about the production, including shots.

Cole has 4pts in the last 6gp -- the skid as the team started struggling and when Suzuki started playing slightly worse. Why are you even pitting them against one another??

Tonight is a big match against a hard working opponent, I think Slaf can win it for the Habs if he shows up but not if he has another one of his BS 1 SoG nights.

 

[waitin425]

Cole has 4pts in the last 6gp -- the skid as the team started struggling and when Suzuki started playing slightly worse. Why are you even pitting them against one another??

Tonight is a big match against a hard working opponent, I think Slaf can win it for the Habs if he shows up but not if he has another one of his BS 1 SoG nights.

Why are shots such an important stat for you? Honest question.

We have other scorers on this team, like Caufield, Laine, Suzuki, now Demidov.

Slaf does other things well like hitting, forechecking, puck retrieval, passing.

Is a Habs win so dependent on Slaf shooting more? It's puzzling to me.

 

[CzarDemidov]

Why are shots such an important stat for you? Honest question.

Corsi/Fenwick are used at the team level and they're all extracted from individual SoG balances.

It's definitely not perfect and implications and correlations are not necessarily proof of something but it's a more honest stat to tell if a player had a good game than, for example, Hits. SoG is a useful proxy for a forward being in the right place and doing the right things.

It implies good O-zone time for his line, it implies possession, SoG leads to rebounds and deflections (remember that goal he was credited that went off the guy's skate?), it implies the forward found space in the right places and got away from his marker, it implies a progressive approach overall.

If we had an easy way to consult a SoG map we could then see patterns emerge between good games and bad games. Usually a player with 3+ SoG has not confused or failed the eye test. Some players cheat and take long range muffin shots from right past the blue line, Claude Julien had his teams doing that, I don't count it. But in MSL's system players who shoot a lot tend to be rewarded at the right pace.

We have other scorers on this team, like Caufield, Laine, Suzuki, now Demidov.

Slaf does other things well like hitting, forechecking, puck retrieval, passing.

Is a Habs win so dependent on Slaf shooting more? It's puzzling to me.

This is fair enough, but the Habs are not there yet as a team and do not yet have enough depth that Slaf's non-productive contribution can be taken for granted.

And you know if he was shooting a lot you'd be hooting and hollering about it.

 

[Victoire HuGo]

Slafkovsky has been averaging two SOGs in the second half. So another take that's L worthy like him not hitting enough. Yawn. If he gets at least 1.8 SOG on average on a line with a bunch of shooters and in a net front role I have no issue.

 

[cave troll]

He was responsible without the puck yesterday but man yesterday was an eye opener talent level between him and Demidov. I like Slaf but I can already tell Demidov will be the more impactful player and most important piece of the rebuild which bodes well if Slaf is now our 4th or 5th best player going forward

They’re not the same level.
Demidov is a superstar material while Slaf is a player for a 2nd line and player who can feed good passes.

 

[waitin425]

Corsi/Fenwick are used at the team level and they're all extracted from individual SoG balances.

It's definitely not perfect and implications and correlations are not necessarily proof of something but it's a more honest stat to tell if a player had a good game than, for example, Hits. SoG is a useful proxy for a forward being in the right place and doing the right things.

It implies good O-zone time for his line, it implies possession, SoG leads to rebounds and deflections (remember that goal he was credited that went off the guy's skate?), it implies the forward found space in the right places and got away from his marker, it implies a progressive approach overall.

If we had an easy way to consult a SoG map we could then see patterns emerge between good games and bad games. Usually a player with 3+ SoG has not confused or failed the eye test. Some players cheat and take long range muffin shots from right past the blue line, Claude Julien had his teams doing that, I don't count it. But in MSL's system players who shoot a lot tend to be rewarded at the right pace.


This is fair enough, but the Habs are not there yet as a team and have enough depth that Slaf's non-productive contribution can be taken for granted.

And you know if he was shooting a lot you'd be hooting and hollering about it.

I still don't understand. How many more shots in your opinion will make him an affective player. Can't some players be better puck distributors? If they have other traits, are those not important?

I did a quick search of the first assist guy I could think of....Adam Oates.

Average shots per game for his career - 1.78
Average shots per game for Slaf this year - 1.67

Not far off from each other.

Oates is a Hall of Famer. Different player than Slaf no doubt....but literally the first example I could think of as a pass first guy and his shooting stats are the same-ish.

 

[Pat Riot]

SlafHULKsky tonight. Leave it all on the ice big boy. Lets go

 

[Andy]

I still don't understand. How many more shots in your opinion will make him an affective player. Can't some players be better puck distributors? If they have other traits, are those not important?

I did a quick search of the first assist guy I could think of....Adam Oates.

Average shots per game for his career - 1.78
Average shots per game for Slaf this year - 1.67

Not far off from each other.

Oates is a Hall of Famer. Different player than Slaf no doubt....but literally the first example I could think of as a pass first guy and his shooting stats are the same-ish.

Shots are just the new metric to criticize him. When that no longer becomes an issue they will just shift the goal post and find some other metric. This is because they just don’t like Slaf for whatever reason. And this dislike started before most posters even saw him play live hockey.

 

[Victoire HuGo]

Shots are just the new metric to criticize him. When that no longer becomes an issue they will just shift the goal post and find some other metric. This is because they just don’t like Slaf for whatever reason. And this dislike started before most posters even saw him play live hockey.

He doesn't do enough takeaways

He looks at the iPad too much on the bench

He gets too many points on Suzuki's goals

He doesn't score enough at home

He doesn't score enough on Mondays


Etc.

 

[waitin425]

Shots are just the new metric to criticize him. When that no longer becomes an issue they will just shift the goal post and find some other metric. This is because they just don’t like Slaf for whatever reason. And this dislike started before most posters even saw him play live hockey.

Oh I am keenly aware of that. I like posting stats and arguments that show his absurdity and then wait for him to ramble on further. It's taking him a while to respond to the Oates comparable because it disproves his argument. The response should be a doozy.

 

[bcv]

Why do you guys even entertain that fool at this point?

Why he is allowed to troll constantly is beyond me. Bad faith arguments after bad faith arguments.

 

[Victoire HuGo]

Oh I am keenly aware of that. I like posting stats and arguments that show his absurdity and then wait for him to ramble on further. It's taking him a while to respond to the Oates comparable because it disproves his argument. The response should be a doozy.

Je suis curieux de voir ses Oates arguments

 

[Kennerback]

There are a few concerns on giving out PP time. Most is about optimal production, second is it’s used as a carrot for players doing well and third you need to thread carefully to keep vets happy.

Last Season. It was Other(/Armia) Net Front, Caufield left, Slaf right, Suzuki bumper, Matheson point. This is when Slafkovsky was most productive as he had a heavy one-timer. (It’s Slaf’s natural position). Dach was injured.

This Season. Dach came back. Where do we put him? He was on the 1st PP when he Right. You generally keep your top offensive players on the 1st PP… So you remove Other(/Armia). But the problem is Dach is too frail to play Net Front. So you take Slaf who’s much better at Right and stick him Net Front even though his one-timer is vastly superior to Dach’s. (Slaf forced out of his natural position)

Change #1: It became obvious that Hutson would be much superior playing the point, so he took Matheson’s place. But Matheson’s a vet, so the switch took much longer than it should have to soften the blow to Matheson demoted to PP2.

Change #2: Dach is injured, so Slaf can go back using his one-timer on the Right (Slaf back to natural position). Other(/Armia) is back playing Net Front. But soon after Laine comes back from injury. While Caufield’s natural position is Left, Laine is even better there. This creates problems because you have 3 Right hand shots and 1 Left hand shot as forwards.

-1. To bump out Caufield, you assuage him by still keeping him on PP1 with the better players. Caufield’s second best position is Bumper. But you can’t play him there because it’s Suzuki. And he’s too small to play Net Front. So you push him on the only spot he can still play on PP1, the Right even though Slaf being a Left shot would be better than Caufield there. (Caufield out of natural position)

-2. So Slaf is forced to go Net Front (Slaf out of natural position).

-3. Both Slaf and Caufield out of natural position.

Proposed Change #3: Demidov can play 3 positions on PP: Point, Bumper, Right as he’s a left hand shot. But you can’t remove Hutson or Suzuki. And Demidov is not playing Net Front. So if Demidov is in. Caufield is out. It has nothing to do with Slafkovsky. If Slafkovsky goes to PP2 it’s because Other(/Armia) is moved back to play Net Front on PP1.

 

[Andy]

There are a few concerns on giving out PP time. Most is about about optimal production, second is it’s used as a carrot for players doing well and third you need to thread carefully to keep vets happy.

Last Season. It was Other(/Armia) net front, Caufield left, Slaf right, Suzuki bumper, Matheson point. This is when Slafkovsky was most productive as he had a heavy one-timer. (It’s Slaf natural position). Dach was injured.

This Season. Dach came back. Where do we put him? He was on the 1st PP when he left. You generally keep your top offensive players on the 1st PP… So you remove Armia/other. But the problem is Dach is too frail to play net front. So you take Slaf who’s much better at Right and stick him Net Front even though his one-timer is vastly superior to Dach’s. (Slaf forced out of his natural position)

Change #1: It became obvious that Hutson would be much superior playing the point, so he took his place. But Matheson’s a vet, so the switch took much longer than it should have to soften the blow to Matheson to demote him to PP2.

Change #2: Dach is injured, so Slaf can go back using his one-timer on the left (Slaf back to natural position). Other is playing Net Front. But soon after Laine comes back from injury. While Caufield’s natural position is left, Laine is even better. This creates problems because you have 3 Right hand shots and 1 Left hand shot as forwards.

-1. To bump out Caufield, you assuage him by keeping him on PP1 with the better player. Caufield’s second best position is Bumper. But you can’t play him there because it’s Suzuki. And he’s too small to play net front. So you push him on the only spot he can still play on PP1, the Left even though Slaf being a Left shot would be better than Caufield there. (Caufield out of natural position)

-2. So Slaf is forced to go Net Front (Slaf out of natural position).

Proposed Change #3: Demidov can play 3 positions on PP: Point, Bumper, Right as he’s a left hand shot. But you can’t remove Hutson or Suzuki. And Demidov is not playing Net Front. So if Demidov is in. Caufield is out. It has nothing to do with Slafkovsky. If Slafkovsky goes to PP2 it’s because Other is moved back to play Net Front on PP1.

Issue with the power play now is that Laine’s shot is so dangerous that you can’t ignore exploring that skill as your main PO weapon. But the problem is that Laine is immobile, which results in the other 4 players being static.

It’s quite the conundrum. It would be silly to not have Laine’s shot be the prime weapon, but in so doing, you restrict the other 4 players.

I personally think Laine should be on Pp2

 

[Hacketts]

big game for him tonight, I feeeel it.

 

[CzarDemidov]

I still don't understand. How many more shots in your opinion will make him an affective player. Can't some players be better puck distributors? If they have other traits, are those not important?

I did a quick search of the first assist guy I could think of....Adam Oates.

Average shots per game for his career - 1.78
Average shots per game for Slaf this year - 1.67

Not far off from each other.

Oates is a Hall of Famer. Different player than Slaf no doubt....but literally the first example I could think of as a pass first guy and his shooting stats are the same-ish.

There's nothing wrong with being a pass-first guy but they're usually exceptional playmakers -- otherwise they're just rather pedestrian overall producers. Just because someone is not a shooter doesn't make him defacto a pass-first/playmaker.

Slaf is not an excellent playmaker so it's silly to compare him to Adam Oates, one of the best playmakers in the history of the sport. Stylistically they're nothing alike -- Slaf is not a fast passer or processor at this time either, Oates was insane at that.

In any case, Slaf's 32 assists has him at a breathtaking 110th in the NHL for assists (85th among forwards)... and somehow his SoG average is somehow lower than the notorious undershooter Adam Oates. Brutal.

Oh I am keenly aware of that. I like posting stats and arguments that show his absurdity and then wait for him to ramble on further. It's taking him a while to respond to the Oates comparable because it disproves his argument. The response should be a doozy.

I don't understand why you're so hostile and cannot just talk about hockey without trying to lay traps or baiting. I'm a person -- do I insult you and your comments? You ask for a discussion and then scoff and call it absurd rambling. It's disrespectful.

Forget it.

 

[Kennerback]

Issue with the power play now is that Laine’s shot is so dangerous that you can’t ignore exploring that skill as your main PO weapon. But the problem is that Laine is immobile, which results in the other 4 players being static.

It’s quite the conundrum. It would be silly to not have Laine’s shot be the prime weapon, but in so doing, you restrict the other 4 players.

I personally think Laine should be on Pp2

But this is where you create another big problem because the reason Laine was forced out of Winnipeg is exactly for that reason… Because he refused to be demoted to PP2. His argument which is a solid argument: I’m the best PP goal scorer in the NHL, I deserve to play on a #1PP, if I don’t I’ll sit or you’ll need to trade me. There’s 32 #1PP in the NHL, trade me to a team that plays me there.

 

[CzarDemidov]

Shots are just the new metric to criticize him. When that no longer becomes an issue they will just shift the goal post and find some other metric. This is because they just don’t like Slaf for whatever reason. And this dislike started before most posters even saw him play live hockey.

If he played better there would be no criticism. Trying to figure out what can be changed (eg SoG) to improve his performance is the objective. Not sure why such a simple concept is evading you but I'm not going to venture as to guess why.

 

[That Habs Fan]

I know this is a weird thing to say, but I feel like people need to piss Slaf off more. You can tell that when he is particularly motivated he's unstoppable and produces more offensively as well as physically. Hopefully he can find consistency and motivation as he ages, and hopefully he has it today.

 

[Guy Larose]

Is this ReHab with a different name?

 

[Andy]

Is this ReHab with a different name?

Yes

 

[Mrb1p]

Yakupov's career high was 33 points in a season. How is that "comparable?"

31 in 48 games, yeah

 

[Guy Larose]

Yes

How did I know Such a shit talker.

 

[Deebs]

I know this is a weird thing to say, but I feel like people need to piss Slaf off more. You can tell that when he is particularly motivated he's unstoppable and produces more offensively as well as physically. Hopefully he can find consistency and motivation as he ages, and hopefully he has it today.

The best thing to happen is if he gets punched in the face early in the game. He needs that