Value of: Jumbo Joe to NSH at the deadline

One Winged Angel

You Can't Escape
May 3, 2006
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How is "Thorton" getting worse when he literally just had one of his best seasons to date? I'm not going to address the "playoff choker" since thatll apparently never leave him

Serious question being that I don't watch a ton of Sharks hockey, but I've seen enough, how was last year one of Thornton's best years? Are we talking regular season and playoffs, because he's had 5 seasons in which he scored more points than last year.

Am I missing something? I've seen him play and he still looks great. Looks like he has another 2 years in him, I'd say.
 

steveat

Registered User
Jun 4, 2011
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Sharks fans: Do you think Thornton will retire as a shark or be traded at some point?

I would say realistically, he would go for picks and not players. (If he were to be traded)

2 x 1st and a 2nd IMO and that's a lot for a him at his age. You may not even get that. At BEST he's got 5 years left in the tank.
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
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Sharks fans: Do you think Thornton will retire as a shark or be traded at some point?

I would say realistically, he would go for picks and not players. (If he were to be traded)

2 x 1st and a 2nd IMO and that's a lot for a him at his age. You may not even get that. At BEST he's got 5 years left in the tank.

Gee...five years. How awfully short.
 

CupfortheSharks

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Mar 31, 2008
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Sharks fans: Do you think Thornton will retire as a shark or be traded at some point?k.

It is very likely that he retires as a shark and I suspect he will remain the Bay Area and end up working for them in some other capacity like Ricci, marchment, baker, and Nabokov. There is a chance that he doesn't accept that he's done and does a swan song somewhere else before he returns to retire a shark... like Boyle just did.

The thing that makes this thread silly is that neither of those things are going to happen this year. The Sharks are going to make the playoffs with jumbo leading the way. We might not make as far as we did last year, but we are getting in. We are too deep and Thornton's play won't just drop off a cliff.
 

Shootertooter

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Feb 20, 2016
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Makes no sence for Nashville, Thorton is getting worse and sucks in the playoffs. What Nashville really needs is a starting goalie

I agree about the goalie thing. I just don't see them getting over them hump with Rinne. Kind of like Wash. and Holtsby. Both really good but it never seems to work out.
 

johna2626

Registered User
Aug 19, 2015
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This isn't a very realistic start to a hypothetical:

It would take multiple season ending injuries to core players to knock the Sharks out of playoff contention. They have a deep roster.

Then Joe would have to wave for Nashville which usually means a player does not intend to resign, which doesn't seem likely regarding the team's history. I can suspend disbelief for this part.

And in your proposal you're not offering any of your best prospects. The Sharks would want NHL ready quality, not quantity. The team still has a solid core without Jumbo Joe and would want someone who could slot in next year, not 4 years from now.

So all and all this doesn't really seem like a good start to a proposal. Joe would be expensive.

Do people not remember last year in December or January when they were bottom 5 in the league?
 

Rebuilt

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Jun 8, 2014
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Sharks are gonna want well regarded futures because selling Thornton means a rebuild. I'd guess like Fiala or Fabbro or Girard and picks or something along those lines.

Why would Nashville GIFT the Sharks these players? Use up Thornton until hes a prune..........then sell him off quick for futures.

I dont see anything more than what Iginla got to go to Pittsburg from Calgary.

Late first, mid prospect.
 

Quid Pro Clowe

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Dec 28, 2008
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Thornton is currently a top-5 center in the league. Iginla was maybe a top-25 winger when he was dealt. BIG difference in value.

You can say he's old and make up some dumb arbitrary amount of time he has left, but he hasn't shown signs of dropping off drastically. Wonder how many years people though Jagr had left when he was 37...
 

Brokencow

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Nov 11, 2003
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Do people not remember last year in December or January when they were bottom 5 in the league?

I do. Yeah, Couture was out but that wasn't the real issue. They were struggling to adjust to a new coaching system, especially on the defensive end. It ended up working out just fine.
 

CanadienShark

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Dec 18, 2012
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Serious question being that I don't watch a ton of Sharks hockey, but I've seen enough, how was last year one of Thornton's best years? Are we talking regular season and playoffs, because he's had 5 seasons in which he scored more points than last year.

Am I missing something? I've seen him play and he still looks great. Looks like he has another 2 years in him, I'd say.

He's developed into a premier two way forward now. His value goes far beyond points.
 

Juxtaposer

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Dec 21, 2009
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Serious question being that I don't watch a ton of Sharks hockey, but I've seen enough, how was last year one of Thornton's best years? Are we talking regular season and playoffs, because he's had 5 seasons in which he scored more points than last year.

Am I missing something? I've seen him play and he still looks great. Looks like he has another 2 years in him, I'd say.

I've been watching the Sharks since 2007 and last season was the most dominant I have ever seen Thornton. You have to consider the era, because Thornton was the second top scoring center last year and that's despite playing through November with a concussion that really made him ineffective.

He carried the Sharks through three rounds. He faltered in the Final, sure. But part of that is Hertl getting hurt (Hertl is ridiculously good) and Pavelski going stone cold. But to blame Thornton for the Finals is insane.

Why would Nashville GIFT the Sharks these players? Use up Thornton until hes a prune..........then sell him off quick for futures.

I dont see anything more than what Iginla got to go to Pittsburg from Calgary.

Late first, mid prospect.

Every year for what feels like the past five years, people get off telling us that Thornton is old, finished, that he "won't fetch a premium price".

If Thornton is a prune, the rest of the league must be truly garbage, because Thornton dominated it last year at age 37. Iginla was finished at age 34, or however old he was when the Flames moved it.

The Sharks with Thornton are an elite team. The Sharks without Thornton are merely above average. I would need Fiala + 2nd or Fabbro + 1st to even think about moving him. He's an elite player right now and he will be the next Jagr, in terms of elite play at 40+ year old.
 

johna2626

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Aug 19, 2015
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I do. Yeah, Couture was out but that wasn't the real issue. They were struggling to adjust to a new coaching system, especially on the defensive end. It ended up working out just fine.

I'm just not ready to say that they're a lock for 100 points. I also wouldn't say the Penguins are either
 

ThirdManIn

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Aug 9, 2009
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Kind of weird when we are talking about the same guy who was traded for Martin Erat.

Oh wait, you were actually serious?

Here, allow me to explain to you exactly how you asking for Forsberg+(you want more!!!) in exchange for Thornton is in no way close to the Forsberg for Erat/Latta trade.

Let me begin by saying that I normally don't expect people to be privy to the details of trades that don't involve their team because, well, most of us don't have the time to keep up with all of the goings-on in the NHL, but this has been one of the most talked-about trades in the past five years. Forgive me if I sound short. Maybe my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Or maybe I'm just taken completely by surprise by the appearance that you weren't actually joking.

OK, so here is how that situation played out. McPhee knew that missing the playoffs with the roster he had, which wasn't a Cup contending roster but was definitely a playoff team, would likely cost him his job. Making it into the playoffs, however, likely kept him employed for one more season, and after that who knows what happens? Forsberg was a prospect at the time. In fact, before he got traded to the Predators he had exactly zero games played in the NHL or AHL. Martin Erat had 723 regular season games, averaging .77 ppg (63 points per 82 games), and 46 playoff games in the NHL alone (though he only played about half of a season in the AHL before being called up, so it's not really worth including that).

Yes, it was an absolutely stupid trade in retrospect, and it seemed like an absolutely stupid trade at the time as well. But it at least made some sense to the GM at the time. He was protecting his job. He was attempting to buy himself some more time to build a team who could compete for a Cup, thus buying himself even more time. It was a job-security trade for Washington.

Now, fast-forward to 2016. The hypothetical situation is that the Sharks are, for whatever reason, not only out of Cup contention but out of playoff contention. Yes, I realize it takes a lot of "ifs" to get to that point, but it's the premise we have been given for the thread so we roll with it. Filip Forsberg now has 182 NHL games under his belt, averaging .73 ppg (60 points over 82 games). He also has tied the Nashville team single season goals record at 33 (yes, I know it's not much, but we're talking about Nashville here). He was tenth in Selke voting last year, meaning he has grown into a two-way forward (Martin Erat, coincidentally, was also a two-way forward who would from time to time get Selke votes). In just two full NHL seasons he has gotten to the point to where he is as productive as Martin Erat, for all intents and purposes, and as good of a two-way forward. And he is 22 years old.

Joe Thornton is a hell of a player, and still has the ability to be the best passer in the entire league. He is also 37 years old, and the hypothetical seems to have him only being a rental for Nashville (the OP even says later on the first page that Thornton could easily just re-sign a contract with San Jose in July). I realize your position is that you don't have to trade him, so why would you, but then you go on to seemingly defend your absolutely ludicrous proposal, apparently meant to show just how little of a chance Nashville has at obtaining Thornton, by drawing a comparison to the Erat for Forsberg trade, I suppose to highlight how anything can happen.

No. Anything cannot happen. No, a trade of Forsberg+ for Thornton would not even remotely be in the same category as the Erat+ for Forsberg trade. You are wrong. Nashville would not have to trade Forsberg+ for Thornton in the event San Jose is shopping him at the deadline. That is, quite frankly, a stupid position to take, and there really is no actual argument for it.
 

Gecklund

Registered User
Jul 17, 2012
26,105
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California
Oh wait, you were actually serious?

Here, allow me to explain to you exactly how you asking for Forsberg+(you want more!!!) in exchange for Thornton is in no way close to the Forsberg for Erat/Latta trade.

Let me begin by saying that I normally don't expect people to be privy to the details of trades that don't involve their team because, well, most of us don't have the time to keep up with all of the goings-on in the NHL, but this has been one of the most talked-about trades in the past five years. Forgive me if I sound short. Maybe my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Or maybe I'm just taken completely by surprise by the appearance that you weren't actually joking.

OK, so here is how that situation played out. McPhee knew that missing the playoffs with the roster he had, which wasn't a Cup contending roster but was definitely a playoff team, would likely cost him his job. Making it into the playoffs, however, likely kept him employed for one more season, and after that who knows what happens? Forsberg was a prospect at the time. In fact, before he got traded to the Predators he had exactly zero games played in the NHL or AHL. Martin Erat had 723 regular season games, averaging .77 ppg (63 points per 82 games), and 46 playoff games in the NHL alone (though he only played about half of a season in the AHL before being called up, so it's not really worth including that).

Yes, it was an absolutely stupid trade in retrospect, and it seemed like an absolutely stupid trade at the time as well. But it at least made some sense to the GM at the time. He was protecting his job. He was attempting to buy himself some more time to build a team who could compete for a Cup, thus buying himself even more time. It was a job-security trade for Washington.

Now, fast-forward to 2016. The hypothetical situation is that the Sharks are, for whatever reason, not only out of Cup contention but out of playoff contention. Yes, I realize it takes a lot of "ifs" to get to that point, but it's the premise we have been given for the thread so we roll with it. Filip Forsberg now has 182 NHL games under his belt, averaging .73 ppg (60 points over 82 games). He also has tied the Nashville team single season goals record at 33 (yes, I know it's not much, but we're talking about Nashville here). He was tenth in Selke voting last year, meaning he has grown into a two-way forward (Martin Erat, coincidentally, was also a two-way forward who would from time to time get Selke votes). In just two full NHL seasons he has gotten to the point to where he is as productive as Martin Erat, for all intents and purposes, and as good of a two-way forward. And he is 22 years old.

Joe Thornton is a hell of a player, and still has the ability to be the best passer in the entire league. He is also 37 years old, and the hypothetical seems to have him only being a rental for Nashville (the OP even says later on the first page that Thornton could easily just re-sign a contract with San Jose in July). I realize your position is that you don't have to trade him, so why would you, but then you go on to seemingly defend your absolutely ludicrous proposal, apparently meant to show just how little of a chance Nashville has at obtaining Thornton, by drawing a comparison to the Erat for Forsberg trade, I suppose to highlight how anything can happen.

No. Anything cannot happen. No, a trade of Forsberg+ for Thornton would not even remotely be in the same category as the Erat+ for Forsberg trade. You are wrong. Nashville would not have to trade Forsberg+ for Thornton in the event San Jose is shopping him at the deadline. That is, quite frankly, a stupid position to take, and there really is no actual argument for it.

I don't really need to read the whole post to know it's just you bagging on Thornton because you know absolutely nothing about the Sharks. You would be absolutely stupid to trade Forsberg for Thornton on age alone but that's what it would take whether you like it or not. Thornton is our rock. He is our offense driver. He is our most productive player in history.
 

GeauxPreds

Registered User
Jul 5, 2013
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9
How about Sedin Sedin both 50% retained for a 1st 2nd and Fiala or Kamenev, I am going to be killed for this.

I highly doubt either of them are being moved and the preds can't afford to take on 2 players and only ship off 1 with the expansion and having to cover 4 dmen.

Fiala is starting this year and will get top 6 minutes and kamenev is sorely needed next year as fisher and ribs contracts expire

I'll second that Thornton to the preds really doesn't make much sense unless the sharks sell significantly low on him in which case 4 other teams are probably on the block for that deal as well.
 

CrypTic

Registered User
Oct 2, 2013
5,069
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Thornton is 37 at this point. He's not going to fetch a premium package.

How is Thornton's age at all relevant if he's a rental? His play this season is what will largely determine his value at the TDL, assuming the Sharks are out of the playoffs and he wants to go to a team that might win the Cup.

Agree that Nashville might be better off trading for a goalie unless Rinne bounces back this season.
 

ThirdManIn

Registered User
Aug 9, 2009
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I don't really need to read the whole post to know it's just you bagging on Thornton because you know absolutely nothing about the Sharks. You would be absolutely stupid to trade Forsberg for Thornton on age alone but that's what it would take whether you like it or not. Thornton is our rock. He is our offense driver. He is our most productive player in history.

What the **** are you talking about? I'm not bagging on Thornton at all. In fact, I even said that Thornton has the ability to be the best passer in the entire league. Maybe if you'd read the whole post this comment wouldn't look so silly. And I agree with you on the points that Thornton is an incredibly important player to San Jose and has been for a long time now. Then again, you didn't read my whole post because I know nothing about the Sharks, so that I agree with you maybe isn't such a good thing, eh? :sarcasm:

I was correcting your utterly ignorant position that it would take Forsberg and then some (I'm not sure which is more laughable, that the Sharks would ask for Forsberg or ask for more) to get Thornton in the scenario put out by the OP, and the even more ignorant defense of "well they traded Erat for him." But, again, had you read the post instead of immediately assuming I was "bagging on" Thornton and taking the defensive posture you'd know that.

For the record, I don't want to spend the assets to get Thornton at the deadline even if San Jose somehow crumbles and they are shopping his services.
 

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