Confirmed with Link: JT Miller traded to NYR for Filip Chytil, Victor Mancini and 1st round pick (top 13 protected)

[Larrybiv]

I like Fil but the problem with Fil is he needs to be wrapped up in bubble wrap and have fragile stamped on his forehead. Now what good is having a man made of glass going to do us. I wish him the best but feel Chytil plus Mancini for JT Miller plus Jackson Dorrington and Erik Brannstrom and giving up a 1st round pick is a good trade for us.

It's a good trade for Vancouver considering all the turmoil, BUT if only Filip ends up having a long career (or whatever contract he gets) , otherwise thhhhhhis seems to me an act of "paranoia" and maybe, just maybe the FO know a LOT more than is being let on.
In other words, you have a 6 in the hole with an ACE showing. Looks good, but it's still a gamble.

 

[noncents]

I'm not a fan of having to nurture confidence in people. I prefer people who are even or aggressive and are internally driven. The ones you have to aid to lift their confidence can just as easily have their confidence fall on changes of circumstance or external support. Not a fan when external influences can sway a person like that.

i'm not really into diving into the psychological makeup you prefer. I also don't think it's germane beyond what you said, that you like Chytil.

Here's what I see as relevant. The Rangers drafted him. They made an investment, in the form of significant draft capital, and then were either unable or unwilling to make good on that investment with the necessary coaching, encouragement, or as you put it, "nurturing." Unable or unwilling to maximize the output of not just the player but also the person. Which is worse, i'm not sure.

It's not like they get anything out of taking the same hard line you espoused, right? They just hurt themselves in the end - devaluing the asset faster than a 2025 polestar. it's just not what a smart modern organization does. even if kakko doesn't matter anymore, the mechanism behind his faltering here absolutely matters.

 

[gabevh3]

I just read this somewhere. Apparently a Canucks practice got really heated towards the tail end of October. EP and JT slashing each other and it ended with a fight between them......and after that nothing but bad blood.

No wonder Mika is a changed player now... doesn't want it to get to that lol reminds me when messier choked/ confronted some teammate at a bar... forgot who he was.

Quick send JT and our 3rd rounder we got for Kakko to Winnipeg for Namestnikov.

But we will have to add Fox

 

[TheWrongWay]

i'm not really into diving into the psychological makeup you prefer. I also don't think it's germane beyond what you said, that you like Chytil.

Fair enough. I fall back on my leadership and management experience. For me, a person's inner drive was always one of the most vital factors in whether I wanted to hire them. I can teach systems/processes. If you're aggressive, I can throw you in the field and you'll attack it and gain the experience.

What I cannot quickly do is alter someone's deeply wired self-esteem, self-worth, and confidence.

When I am managing multiple people, allocation and use of time is vital. I never want to waste this precious time holding grown adults' hands and coddling them. I usually manage in results-driven fields where that is impractical and can be destructive to productivity.

Does this make my way right and your approach wrong? Of course not. There are different ways to lead and manage. This is merely what is proven to work for me. And with a guy like Kakko, I always felt red flag vibes on his ability to self-motivate and never liked his subtle finger points.

I would have gotten rid of him years ago.

Here's what I see as relevant. The Rangers drafted him. They made an investment, in the form of significant draft capital, and then were either unable or unwilling to make good on that investment with the necessary coaching, encouragement, or as you put it, "nurturing." Unable or unwilling to maximize the output of not just the player but also the person. Which is worse, i'm not sure.

It's not like they get anything out of taking the same hard line you espoused, right? They just hurt themselves in the end - devaluing the asset faster than a 2025 polestar. it's just not what a smart modern organization does. even if kakko doesn't matter anymore, the mechanism behind his faltering here absolutely matters.

Your points have validity and I get where you're coming from. We simply have differing approaches and management ideologies, which is all good.

Personally, I don't care where he was drafted. The moment I start seeing subtle public digs about ice time or situations not to someone's liking, I want that person jettisoned away from my team as immediately as possible.

I don't want to waste time propping egos or trying to bend my team around anyone. I don't want to waste time having to fan out flames of subtle complaints or needs. I don't want to deal with the cliques and divisions those types tend to create within team environments.

I get rid of him. I don't care if I take a hit on the trade. For me, the victory is not having infections in the team's culture, identity, unity, and cohesion. He is not the only player I would like moved.

Again, just me, but I want the people who attack an environment. Where, if things are not the way they like it, they work so hard to produce and make an impact that you cannot help but notice and utilize them.

You might come at this in a completely different way and out-produce me. All good in the hood. I am only going by what emotionally and systemically feels right and has proven to work for me.

Moreover, being real on this, I don’t truly know what goes on in a locker room or truly know these players. So most of us are, in no uncertain terms, only able to throw our best guesses at these situations based on the partial information we have. And that’s all I am doing here: throwing a best guess at this based on my best feel of the situation.

Regardless, I enjoy these interactions because they force me to consider different viewpoints and expand my perceptions.

Everyone has things I can learn from them if I am willing to stay open to it. So yours or someone else’s approach might feel foreign or unnatural to me. But I will read it and ruminate on it. I certainly don’t want to stay trapped in the confines of my already-known thoughts and methods. There are, after all, a lot of things I suck at that can be improved.

 

[noncents]

Fair enough. I fall back on my leadership and management experience. For me, a person's inner drive was always one of the most vital factors in whether I wanted to hire them. I can teach systems/processes. If you're aggressive, I can throw you in the field and you'll attack it and gain the experience.

What I cannot quickly do is alter someone's deeply wired self-esteem, self-worth, and confidence.

When I am managing multiple people, allocation and use of time is vital. I never want to waste this precious time holding grown adults' hands and coddling them. I usually manage in results-driven fields where that is impractical and can be destructive to productivity.

Does this make my way right and your approach wrong? Of course not. There are different ways to lead and manage. This is merely what is proven to work for me. And with a guy like Kakko, I always felt red flag vibes on his ability to self-motivate and never liked his subtle finger points.

I would have gotten rid of him years ago.



Your points have validity and I get where you're coming from. We simply have differing approaches and management ideologies, which is all good.

Personally, I don't care where he was drafted. The moment I start seeing subtle public digs about ice time or situations not to someone's liking, I want that person jettisoned away from my team as immediately as possible.

I don't want to waste time propping egos or trying to bend my team around anyone. I don't want to waste time having to fan out flames of subtle complaints or needs. I don't want to deal with the cliques and divisions those types tend to create within team environments.

I get rid of him. I don't care if I take a hit on the trade. For me, the victory is not having infections in the team's culture, identity, unity, and cohesion. He is not the only player I would like moved.

Again, just me, but I want the people who attack an environment. Where, if things are not the way they like it, they work so hard to produce and make an impact that you cannot help but notice and utilize them.

You might come at this in a completely different way and out-produce me. All good in the hood. I am only going by what emotionally and systemically feels right and has proven to work for me.

Moreover, being real on this, I don’t truly know what goes on in a locker room or truly know these players. So most of us are, in no uncertain terms, only able to throw our best guesses at these situations based on the partial information we have. And that’s all I am doing here: throwing a best guess at this based on my best feel of the situation.

Regardless, I enjoy these interactions because they force me to consider different viewpoints and expand my perceptions.

Everyone has things I can learn from them if I am willing to stay open to it. So yours or someone else’s approach might feel foreign or unnatural to me. But I will read it and ruminate on it. I certainly don’t want to stay trapped in the confines of my already-known thoughts and methods. There are, after all, a lot of things I suck at that can be improved.

like i've already said, your personal thoughts and strategies on management are welcome. I'm sure your experience has served you well in a career and life. I still think you're kind of missing my point.

You're framing this as an intellectual disagreement between "your way" and "my way," as if we're each expressing how we'd apply personally preferred principles to management... Your style being to hire people who "attack" an environment, and my style being some other thing.

I'm not doing that. Only you are doing that. I'm not proscribing a single methodology that differs from yours. I'm simply pointing out that your style does not apply to everyone.

What I'm saying is that to dogmatically choose one style of management, such as yours, is strictly suboptimal because it eliminates anyone for whom that style does not work from the potential talent pool.

I think the organization that practices flexibility, and is able to understand that different assets require different management, is best set up to succeed. That's it.

 

[bhamill]

If both were equally as injury free would be a no brainer

Meh. I like Fil, BUT... Fil has (never played more than 75 games and) never scored more than 45pts.
He is 25, he is about what he is. With luck he may end up a 60 point player. He's on a 41pt pace right now. With no physical component to his game. I don't care that he is a center, because his faceoffs (never broke 43.4% on a year) and D are not really sufficient for a center. He's a good NHLer. Nothing special, and likely is a career 3C. I wish him all the best though. He's a great kid and fun to watch when he is on.

Laf scores more (had a 57pt season already), with any luck (and PP1 time) will be a 80-90pt player, plays better D (not that that is saying much) and has some real meanness to his game. And he is in his D+5 as opposed to Fil's D+8. He's still got more runway.

I agree its a no brainer, keep Laf over Fil 20/10 times. And probably every GM and scout in the league would agree with me if that matters to you.

 

[kovazub94]

i'm not really into diving into the psychological makeup you prefer. I also don't think it's germane beyond what you said, that you like Chytil.

Here's what I see as relevant. The Rangers drafted him. They made an investment, in the form of significant draft capital, and then were either unable or unwilling to make good on that investment with the necessary coaching, encouragement, or as you put it, "nurturing." Unable or unwilling to maximize the output of not just the player but also the person. Which is worse, i'm not sure.

It's not like they get anything out of taking the same hard line you espoused, right? They just hurt themselves in the end - devaluing the asset faster than a 2025 polestar. it's just not what a smart modern organization does. even if kakko doesn't matter anymore, the mechanism behind his faltering here absolutely matters.

You absolutely right that the Rangers would've served better if they were able to have their 2OA perform and contribute relative to his draft status and re. Kakko there's a number of things that organization could've done better for his development here.

However, you should also not completely discount the notion that Kakko is producing on a bad (getting worse) team. Be wary of a "good" player on a bad team is a known axiom.

 

[bhamill]

Obviously it's only been 2 games. We've been begging for skill players who play like the bottom six in terms of tenacity and fearlessness -- what the misguided people took for "tuffness" and equated to "fighting". The team will go as far as Miller can carry them. Without Miller, there isn't anyone short of Trocheck who will not hesitate to go to the middle of the ice. They don't even use the middle of the ice on odd man rushes. Everything is wide, from the boards, staying from the outside.

Well, Cuylle and Laf and Carrick and Edstrom and Rempe disagree that no one else will not hesitate to go to the middle of the ice... And Will and Laf do have skill but I take your point. I think Miller was a need. I didn't even want him without Zibs going the other way. Looks like I was wrong.

 

[Profet]

Well, Cuylle and Laf and Carrick and Edstrom and Rempe disagree that no one else will not hesitate to go to the middle of the ice... And Will and Laf do have skill but I take your point. I think Miller was a need. I didn't even want him without Zibs going the other way. Looks like I was wrong.

Laf will not go to the middle of the ice. He's adopted the Panarin pause at the half boards and looks for a cross ice pass.


I'm hoping Miller can get him going.. and Laf can start playing like he did in juniors where he was a bulldog and was really physical and hard to play against.

Laf is not Panarin, and he will never be Panarin. But he tries to play like Panarin and it just... sucks.

Laf can certainly play like Miller. He has the skill and frame for it. And that's how he played when he was drafted.

 

[noncents]

Laf will not go to the middle of the ice. He's adopted the Panarin pause at the half boards and looks for a cross ice pass.


I'm hoping Miller can get him going.. and Laf can start playing like he did in juniors where he was a bulldog and was really physical and hard to play against.

Laf is not Panarin, and he will never be Panarin. But he tries to play like Panarin and it just... sucks.

Laf can certainly play like Miller. He has the skill and frame for it. And that's how he played when he was drafted.

yeah but playing like panarin is much easier.. why wouldnt he wanna play that way?

 

[bhamill]

Laf will not go to the middle of the ice. He's adopted the Panarin pause at the half boards and looks for a cross ice pass.


I'm hoping Miller can get him going.. and Laf can start playing like he did in juniors where he was a bulldog and was really physical and hard to play against.

Laf is not Panarin, and he will never be Panarin. But he tries to play like Panarin and it just... sucks.

Laf can certainly play like Miller. He has the skill and frame for it. And that's how he played when he was drafted.

This is incorrect. Laf goes to the middle of the ice. But you are right, he's NOT Panarin, and it sucks when he tries to play like him.
Last game, scored from the inner edge of the circle:

 

[Profet]

This is incorrect. Laf goes to the middle of the ice. But you are right, he's NOT Panarin, and it sucks when he tries to play like him.
Last game, scored from the inner edge of the circle:

I mean... if you look at that clip, he only did that because Miller literally bulldozed the middle of the ice so that Laf wouldn't get any contact.


What I'm saying is, I want Laf to initiate that contact. Not be the beneficiary of said contact.

 

[will1066]

This is incorrect. Laf goes to the middle of the ice. But you are right, he's NOT Panarin, and it sucks when he tries to play like him.
Last game, scored from the inner edge of the circle:

Laf has perked up a little since being removed from Panarin's hip.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Meh. I like Fil, BUT... Fil has (never played more than 75 games and) never scored more than 45pts.
He is 25, he is about what he is. With luck he may end up a 60 point player. He's on a 41pt pace right now. With no physical component to his game. I don't care that he is a center, because his faceoffs (never broke 43.4% on a year) and D are not really sufficient for a center. He's a good NHLer. Nothing special, and likely is a career 3C. I wish him all the best though. He's a great kid and fun to watch when he is on.

Laf scores more (had a 57pt season already), with any luck (and PP1 time) will be a 80-90pt player, plays better D (not that that is saying much) and has some real meanness to his game. And he is in his D+5 as opposed to Fil's D+8. He's still got more runway.

I agree its a no brainer, keep Laf over Fil 20/10 times. And probably every GM and scout in the league would agree with me if that matters to you.

Some really good points in this post. Hard to disagree. Very well laid out thinking!

 

[bhamill]

I mean... if you look at that clip, he only did that because Miller literally bulldozed the middle of the ice so that Laf wouldn't get any contact.


What I'm saying is, I want Laf to initiate that contact. Not be the beneficiary of said contact.

He does as well. And he goes to the net. He goes to all of the dirty areas. It's fair to say you want to see MORE of it, and for him to be more FORCEFUL. Sure.

 

[bhamill]

Some really good points in this post. Hard to disagree. Very well laid out thinking!

Thanks. Hope it didn't come off as bagging on Fil. I'm really rooting for him to still take another step.

 

[Peltz]

I agree its a no brainer, keep Laf over Fil 20/10 times. And probably every GM and scout in the league would agree with me if that matters to you.

This is not a hot take. Laf is a better asset than Chytil objectively.

 

[Larrybiv]

Haven't read the whole thread, but my basic 2 cents with this trade is rather simple (and probably stated already).
Drury eventually has come to the conclusion that his team is too soft and easy to play against.
The culture is slowly changing. Ridding a "tough guy" like Trouba hurt in that not often enough tough category, but the bottom line is he wasn't a good defender and pretty damned slow. Borgen is looking like an all-star in comparison, THAT was an upgrade. Love Filip but he seriously scared me every time he got hit. AND despite his electric speed and talent in carrying the rock, he was SOFT.
Miller? An obvious upgrade in toughness.
We have no way of knowing how Mancini would have progressed, but seemed he has what it takes, but maybe HE was what Vancouver insisted on, otherwise I just don't understand. Are we "that deep" with upcoming solid defenseman? IDK.
I'm liking our depth on 4th line, especially if Rempe is getting more minutes, so he can grow. Carrick, Vesey and Edstrom are doing a great job. Should be NO reason as to why this team cannot get it right. Need Kreider and Mika desperately to perform the way the used to though.

 

[Profet]

Haven't read the whole thread, but my basic 2 cents with this trade is rather simple (and probably stated already).
Drury eventually has come to the conclusion that his team is too soft and easy to play against.
The culture is slowly changing. Ridding a "tough guy" like Trouba hurt in that not often enough tough category, but the bottom line is he wasn't a good defender and pretty damned slow. Borgen is looking like an all-star in comparison, THAT was an upgrade. Love Filip but he seriously scared me every time he got hit. AND despite his electric speed and talent in carrying the rock, he was SOFT.
Miller? An obvious upgrade in toughness.
We have no way of knowing how Mancini would have progressed, but seemed he has what it takes, but maybe HE was what Vancouver insisted on, otherwise I just don't understand. Are we "that deep" with upcoming solid defenseman? IDK.
I'm liking our depth on 4th line, especially if Rempe is getting more minutes, so he can grow. Carrick, Vesey and Edstrom are doing a great job. Should be NO reason as to why this team cannot get it right. Need Kreider and Mika desperately to perform the way the used to though.

Vancouver wanted Fortescue. That was the hold up a couple of weeks ago.

They eventually relented and took Mancini.