Player Discussion Josh Norris (C) 6’-1” - Part 3

[D2Dpass]

I am curious to know if there are any other players in the league that have had 3 surgeries on one shoulder and have come back to play at an NHL-caliber level?

Calvin de Haan , Tampa Bay ( Carp lad ) has a total of 5 shoulder surgeries . 3 on left shoulder , 2 on right , though now nearing the end of his career , he still managed to play a respectable 525 + nhl games, even after missing so many games due to shoulder injuries

 

[Golden_Jet]

Guy needs to sit down with his family and the sens brass. Should come to the realization it is not safe for him to play professional hockey for medical reasons. His contract is guaranteed and the sens can start looking at other options. It’s the best situation for everyone involved

He needs to do a medical every training camp, to go on LTIR and get paid, not sure he’s going to fail 6 years in a row.
Your not going to know, he’ll miss the entire season each time.

 

[Micklebot]

He would need a medical at each training camp, to determine if not healthy yet.

Of course, but at the end of the day, if medical the situation remains the same and the risk of re-injury and long term implications remain the same, then I don't see the league taking any issue

Truth is likely those yearly evaluations would be a formality unless the team or Norris try to challenge the result.

 

[ottawagm]

I don't think it felt right to him from the start. Although it isn't good, maybe this time it feels stronger / better and he comes back with more confidence in it.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Norris came back late this year after setting expectations for training camp.. after what was described as a set back and a few weeks of it not feeling right.
When he came , it took him a long while to engage physically and his overall effectiveness suffered... After the coaching change and ample time in the top 6 he was finally demoted . That seemed to light a bit of a fire and he stepped up his game. He started to play better and wham another freako kind of injury hitting the bar at the back of the net dead on that shoulder. It took a couple different doctors and a couple opinions but here he is again under the knife with another rehab.. He now has missed a lot of hockey with that set of shoulder injuries in critical development years .. His upside is very likely to take a hit. He knows the road back but I am not sure he gets penciled into a top 6C position when he gets back . Sens have bad luck. Its hurts even more when we lose 2 high end forwards that were part of our future , squander 1st round + picks at the draft and on splashy trades that don't work out and forfeit a 1st for hiding no trade lists . Sens need some good fortune. We need some good fortune

 

[Icelevel]

I highly doubt Norris doesn't want to try to continue playing.

Sure why not. As long as it doesn’t risk long term disability. At least it’s not the head. Would be different.
Thing is.. who wants him with that contract and how weak he’ll be after so much time off again with high risk of it happening again.
Tough situation. He’s set financially either way though.

 

[Cosmix]

The unfortunate part is that the contract is an 8 mill anchor on the Sens too for the next 7 years. It's impossible to plan around a team cap structure when you have an 8 mill guy in and out of the lineup regularly.

Does Insurance cover some or part of an LTIR player's cap hit or salary?

I was thinking about this as well. My memory told me that if he retires, he doesn’t receive the money specified in his contract. So, I checked to make sure, and found this. With regards to a summary, you could say this is a bad & unfortunate situation for the team & player.

'If a player retires, they will no longer receive any of the remaining money in their contract. If a player has a contract but no longer wishes to play, the most common result is for them to go on the injured list for the remainder of their contract, which is still paid for by the team. If the same case occurred in this case, the remaining cap hit would be retained."

Hockey Players Who Have Retired: Their Options And What They Bring To The Table – internationalhockey.net

This is not a direct quote from the standard NHL contract and therefor is suspect.

 

[JungleBeat]

Norris is cooked.

 

[Cosmix]

Norris came back late this year after setting expectations for training camp.. after what was described as a set back and a few weeks of it not feeling right.
When he came , it took him a long while to engage physically and his overall effectiveness suffered... After the coaching change and ample time in the top 6 he was finally demoted . That seemed to light a bit of a fire and he stepped up his game. He started to play better and wham another freako kind of injury hitting the bar at the back of the net dead on that shoulder. It took a couple different doctors and a couple opinions but here he is again under the knife with another rehab.. He now has missed a lot of hockey with that set of shoulder injuries in critical development years .. His upside is very likely to take a hit. He knows the road back but I am not sure he gets penciled into a top 6C position when he gets back . Sens have bad luck. Its hurts even more when we lose 2 high end forwards that were part of our future , squander 1st round + picks at the draft and on splashy trades that don't work out and forfeit a 1st for hiding no trade lists . Sens need some good fortune. We need some good fortune

Like a draft lottery selection?

 

[Korpse]

Don’t need much medical knowledge to understand his shoulder is fragile either.

I think it’s likely the second surgery didn’t work as hoped. That doesn’t mean the issue can’t be fixed. Tarasenko was in a somewhat similar situation. First surgery was good, re injured after and went for surgery a second time and afterwards felt some instability and eventually injured it again. The third surgery has been holding up. Every situation is going to be different but you can’t write off a situation just based on number of procedures. I think given how the training camp played out, there’s a good chance Norris was also experiencing some instability in his shoulder after the second surgery. It’s a long road ahead before anyone knows how it responds to this third surgery but no body is in a position to say he won’t or can’t recover.

 

[Xspyrit]

Norris is cooked.

Maybe, maybe not, like another poster has shown, Tarasenko had 3 shoulder surgeries too

 

[bicboi64]

Maybe, maybe not, like another poster has shown, Tarasenko had 3 shoulder surgeries too

Maybe we can get a similar return for Norris as we did Tank. The capspace alone would help out

 

[mysens]

Maybe we can get a similar return for Norris as we did Tank. The capspace alone would help out

maybe Vegas can take Norris and use his almost guaranteed LTIR every year before playoffs.

 

[Big Muddy]

This is not a direct quote from the standard NHL contract and therefor is suspect.

I happened to provide a link to this site, but my search returned the same results from other sites.

Here is another link, this time to PuckPedia.

If a player with retained salary retires, all of the player's cap hit is removed, which includes his current team and his former team that retained salary. The exception is a player who was 35+ and signed a multi-year contract, as if that player retires the cap hit remains. However, it is very rare for players to actually retire with an active contract. When a player retires, they no longer receive the pay remaining on their contract. If players have contracts but no longer wish to play, the more common result is that they go on the injured list for the remainder of their contracts as that way they still get paid. In that case, the retained cap hit would remain.

Retained Salary player Retiring | Puckpedia

puckpedia.com

And, also this from CapFriendly:

As already stated, generally there are two scenarios that occur:

1. Early retirement (Example: Lecavalier), this is a true retirement, player retires from NHL without an injury, and they cease earning a salary. The team no longer has a cap hit (unless their is a recapture penalty, of which can't occur for any contract signed since the 2013 CBA)
2. "LTIRetire" The player is injured for the remainder of their career (See: Pronger, Hossa, MacArthur, etc, etc) and they "retire" from hockey; however, it is not an official retirement: The player continues to receive a salary, and therefore the team incurs a cap hit. Generally the contract is covered partially by insurance (usually 80%), and the team, if they need to exceed the upper limit, can place them on LTIR

Players retiring while under contract, What happens? - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Forums for armchair-gm, mock-draft, GM Game, and NHL discussion

www.capfriendly.com

And another one:

Question

When a player goes on LTIR do they continue to get paid regular salary? Jake Muzzin is on LTIR, does he get paid full salary? If he retired, does he still get paid full salary until his contract expires? Is there then any financial incentive to retire, or does retiring hurt him?

Answer​

Feb 24, 2023
Any player with an active contract gets paid the full contract amount, regardless of if they are healthy, on IR, or LTIR. If a player retires before the contract expires, they no longer get paid. That's why it's very rare for injured players with active contracts to retire, they almost always just remain on IR or LTIR so they continue to get paid until the contract is completed.

LTIR Salary vs Retirement | Puckpedia

puckpedia.com

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I happened to provide a link to this site, but my search returned the same results from other sites.

 

[Korpse]

Same surgeon who did Tarasenko’s 3rd surgery.

 

[GCK]

Same surgeon who did Tarasenko’s 3rd surgery.

Maybe Tank dropped the Surgeon’s card in Norris’ locker before running to the airport.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Does Insurance cover some or part of an LTIR player's cap hit or salary?

Depends,
Not sure the provider will insure him in the fall after three surgeries.
It’s usually around 5 or 6 contracts that get insured.

 

[SpezzaNoLookDropPass]

Same surgeon who did Tarasenko’s 3rd surgery.

What im pulling from this is that Norris is sorta on pace to be Tarasenko?

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

He will come back a month or two into the season. Play cautious. Eventually blow out his shoulder again amd be done.

Senators need to start planning to bury him on injured reserve and spend his cap on other players.

Guy is done.

 

[Icelevel]

Same surgeon who did Tarasenko’s 3rd surgery.

Ah that’s good (hopefully). I was assuming vladdy gave him some advice. We’ll just keep our fingers crossed then.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

So how many months of recovery would a shoulder surgery need?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I didn't know Tarasenko had 3 surgeries on the same shoulder. Maybe there is light.

Blues' Tarasenko set for 3rd shoulder surgery, out 5 months

St. Louis Blues winger Vladimir Tarasenko will undergo surgery on his left shoulder once again and won't be evaluated...

www.usatoday.com

I think the problem is it's a case by case situation. Norris having 3 surgeries in the last 3-4 years or so....that's not a lot of time to recover and rebuild muscle.

Spread out the surgeries over a decade or longer, and you'd likely have better results. Also depends what part of the shoulder they're fixing, too.


Really sucks for Norris. I know the kid has money and is set for life and all, but he was on the road to having a decade+ career. I hope the surgery works out, but you have to think that shoulder will always be a big issue now. Even playing wing might not be enough to protect it.

 

[harrisb]

Doesn't he leave all that money on the table if he voluntarily retires?

He’ll retire with the leafs on Robidas Island

 

[harrisb]

Medically cleared is a bit of a nebulous concept imo; he can be medically cleared, with the understanding that he's at a high risk to re-injure the shoulder and have it impact his quality of life in a significant way going forward, for example. If he isn't comfortable with the elevated level of risk associated with playing, is he really cleared? From an insurance perspective, it gets muddier, but for the league to let him remain on LTIR, I can't see them challenging it

The leafs have been icing a second roster of bad contracts on LTIR for years. No way Norris with 3 surgeries would ever be challenged or all the perennial offenders will be outed.