Prospect Info: Jordan Kyrou (2016 Draft - 35 Overall)
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542365
2018-19 Cup Champs!
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I think you forgot Maroon has fight 1-2 times already. Does it count as being better?
WeWentBlues
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- May 3, 2017
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Your anti-Kyrou position is bizarre.
The kid looks every bit as advertised. He just needs more opportunities with better line mates and power play time to gain confidence to start producing.
I'm not the least bit anti-Kyrou.
You guys just need to pump the breaks on his hype train. Him looking "every bit as advertised" is because he can skate fast. Ok.
He's gotten some opportunities. Not as much as people would like, but the Blues aren't in a position to just give kids time so they can gain confidence. They're a win-now team. You have to get that through your head that winning games is their top priority, not worrying about Kyrou's confidence level. That's what the AHL is for.
The sooner you realize this, the less time you can spend complaining about the real world and how things work.
WeWentBlues
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- May 3, 2017
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I'm not complaining about anything. I understand why he got sent down. We have a logjam both up front and on the back end. Until the roster gets sorted (which I mentioned the other day and you quickly chimed in), the AHL makes sense for him.I'm not the least bit anti-Kyrou.
You guys just need to pump the breaks on his hype train. Him looking "every bit as advertised" is because he can skate fast. Ok.
He's gotten some opportunities. Not as much as people would like, but the Blues aren't in a position to just give kids time so they can gain confidence. They're a win-now team. You have to get that through your head that winning games is their top priority, not worrying about Kyrou's confidence level. That's what the AHL is for.
The sooner you realize this, the less time you can spend complaining about the real world and how things work.
What I am doing is trying to set the record straight. Go look at your recent post history. You have plenty to say about Kyrou and it's mostly unfounded. His performance goes well beyond what shows up on the stat sheet. He is a dynamic playmaker with great speed. This play tells me everything I need to know about Jordan Kyrou. The Blues don't have anyone else on the roster who can carve up a team like this.
Then why has he only made that play once if he has the ability that nobody else on the team has?
He has potential to be a dynamic playmaker. He is by no means currently dynamic in the NHL lol.
Oberyn
Prince of Dorne
- Mar 27, 2011
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I do think Kyrou is getting a bit overrated in here, and I say that as a big fan of him. It seems like people are seeing a few brilliant shifts and projecting this as his performance if he were to be given more of an opportunity. I see a lot of holes in Kyrou's game that need to be fixed. He's made several egregious turnovers at the offensive blue line that have caused an odd man rush the other way. It's clear that he's overestimating how much time he has to make a play. He could get away with it in the OHL, but NHL defenders will be more aggressive and Kyrou is still adjusting to that. Kyrou's positioning in the offensive zone also reminds me of Tarasenko. He's constantly looking for soft spots, but the puck never gets to him because his linemates get outnumbered along the boards. I'd like to see a little more initiative on his part to retrieve the puck. His play in the defensive zone also needs a lot of work, but that's to be expected and not a huge cause for concern.
I'm fine with giving Kyrou some time in the AHL to get some of his swagger back and play a lot more minutes. I'm sure Kyrou is disappointed to be sent down, but I would hope he sees this as an opportunity to grow and improve. He's shown that he's capable of playing in the NHL, but there are some wrinkles he needs to iron out before he's a consistent player at that level.
I'm fine with giving Kyrou some time in the AHL to get some of his swagger back and play a lot more minutes. I'm sure Kyrou is disappointed to be sent down, but I would hope he sees this as an opportunity to grow and improve. He's shown that he's capable of playing in the NHL, but there are some wrinkles he needs to iron out before he's a consistent player at that level.
542365
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Like I understand your shtick is the Colin Cowherd of the board, but this position you're taking is nonsensical. He has generated more scoring chances and more high danger scoring chances than Maroon in less ice time. He has simply been the better player between the two. He hasn't been amazing by any means, but that can be difficult in 10 minutes of ice at most.I'm not the least bit anti-Kyrou.
You guys just need to pump the breaks on his hype train. Him looking "every bit as advertised" is because he can skate fast. Ok.
He's gotten some opportunities. Not as much as people would like, but the Blues aren't in a position to just give kids time so they can gain confidence. They're a win-now team. You have to get that through your head that winning games is their top priority, not worrying about Kyrou's confidence level. That's what the AHL is for.
The sooner you realize this, the less time you can spend complaining about the real world and how things work.
You did this exact same shit when people wanted to see more of Tarasenko and Parayko and were wrong there too. Like give it up, young talented players need to play. Kyrou needs to play and since he's not getting that opportunity in St. Louis I'm fine with him being in the AHL, but to claim that Maroon has been better than Kyrou when everything points to the opposite is nonsense. Just give it up. We get it already. You like to rain on people's parades even when they're clearly right. Just give it up, Colin.
EastonBlues22
Registered User
Brian's post didn't mention Kyrou at all, nor did the post he quoted.
I'm not even sure why one would make that comparison at this point. Maroon isn't an option to go down so comparing Kyrou's play to his doesn't matter on that front, and Maroon is not on the top line anymore, which is why his name was originally broached in this thread back before the season started.
You could make an argument that Kyrou should have been getting PP time instead of Maroon, but nobody seemed to be making that argument in here, and saying Maroon "has done a hell of a lot more than Kyrou" as a defense of that doesn't make much sense since Kyrou was never given a single second of PP time. Of course the guy who has 39+ minutes of PP time is going to have more to show for it than the guy who has zero.
Empirically, that's just not true. Not by individual measure of offensive generation that I know of, anyway...shot generation, actual shots, scoring chances, or high danger scoring chances. Not even by points. Kyrou has one primary assist at 5v5, and Maroon has only a secondary assist to his name.
Those aren't rate stats. Those are all raw totals...and that's with Maroon having about 25 minutes more of 5v5 TOI to work with, not to mention better linemates for the majority of that.
I'm not sure why you're not seeing that when you watch him play, and you're certainly welcome to your opinion. I just don't think it's the objective truth that your conviction would seem to imply.
ort
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- Mar 6, 2012
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I thought Kyrou looked pretty good for what little playing time he had, but I understand this decision.
That said, it sucks. We all wanted shiny new toys and now we're sending those toys back.
What a miserable season this has been so far. Blues fans deserve so much better.
That said, it sucks. We all wanted shiny new toys and now we're sending those toys back.
What a miserable season this has been so far. Blues fans deserve so much better.
Daley Tarasenkshow
Schennsational
The Rampage look like a mess right now, so I hope Kyrou can be productive and improve while he's down there. No matter what I feel he'll be in a better position to grow than at the NHL level (playing 7 minutes a night) but I hope he can make the most of his time on a weak team.
I always love seeing you get upset and claim someone else is the one that rains on the parades. You are by far the most negative, knee-jerk poster on this board and it's not close. I can go to any GDT in which the Blues lost the game and find a post about you saying "this team isn't winning shit this year" and throwing in the towel. But yeah, I'm the one with a "schtick." You are insanely predictable.
I did this exact same shit with Parayko and Tarasenko? "This exact same shit" meaning what exactly? I wanted to send them to the AHL? I didn't think they were good enough to stay on the NHL roster? Nope. Neither of those ever happened. I've been a Parayko supporter on this board before he even made it to the NHL. I never once claimed he should get less ice time. Have I said that people overrate Parayko? Yep, because they do. People think he's going to breakout more offensively or physically, and I've maintained my stance that it's not going to happen. He will not gain a mean streak, and I don't see him really topping what looks to be a ceiling of 40 points very often. He has a good shot but too many flaws when it comes to using it (accuracy, tentativeness). He is what he is, and has been the same player basically every year he's been here.
And Tarasenko? Also never wanted him to get sent down or get less ice time than he gets. Have I said he's overrated too though? Yep. And he also is. Look at all the complaints you see about him these days. He has not improved his all-around game and still can't be counted on defensively. He is a one-trick pony who has yet to hit PPG and has been getting worse the past 2 years rather than better. In his 2nd year here there were tons of people claiming this guy was going to be a future HOF star and I was one of the few who remained skeptical that he had the ability and consistency to reach that level. You still see people saying he's going to hit 50. I've been saying he's not going to.
So by all means, if you want to provide evidence of me doing whatever you're claiming I did with these two players, or anything that proves me wrong about them, post it. But my guess is as usual, you won't reply to this post because my assessments of both have been extremely accurate. And I'm not one to toot my own horn. I don't post Dizee threads and pat myself on the back. But if you want to bring up those 2 players specifically, then yes, I have been right about them. And it's not like I'm always negative about our players - I'm a pretty positive supporter of the team but I just post my realistic thoughts.
Well, my apologies then, lots of talk going on in this thread and other threads about people constantly complaining about Maroon and also complaining about Kyrou's ice time so I put 2 and 2 together. I just debated someone else in another thread that said Kyrou is a better player. Seems to me that more people than just him have that opinion, but I could be wrong there.
I stand by my case that Maroon has done more. Such as the goal he created by hitting Seabrook in which he didn't receive an assist but obviously deserved one. So by my eye test, I don't see Kyrou generating more.
If the better player was determined by who has gotten more scoring chances that they didn't convert on, then yeah Kyrou is a great player. But that's not reality because he has not converted and has produced very little.
As far as I'm concerned, the PP unit of Dunn, Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Bozak and Maroon is playing great, so why mess with that? Whether you think Maroon is mediocre at standing in front of the goalie or not, that unit seems to be working to me. You say Maroon has only caused 1 goal by being a screen, but that still counts and is another goal that I'm pretty sure he didn't receive a point for. So that's now 2 instances where he helped create a goal, to go along with his 6 points. So in 10 games, he could easily have 8 points. That's not pretty good? I think it is, and I feel a lot of you are underrating him. Is he amazing? No, of course not. I want him on the 4th line when Fabbri returns. But I think he'll do fine there.
The next unit is Schwartz, Schenn, Perron, Pietrangelo, and Steen. Who are you replacing with Kyrou? I'm guessing Steen. I'd be okay with that, but I don't think it would make much of a difference. I'm not arguing that Kyrou shouldn't get any PP time. I wish he got at least 1 shift to see us what he could potentially do. I think it's a bit ridiculous that he got all of 0 seconds. But, it is what it is and I wasn't impressed by him at even strength.
Going by giveaways, Kyrou has been less responsible with the puck too. So yeah aside from bringing speed, I'm not seeing how he's contributing much right now. I did see the stats you posted in some other thread about the high danger scoring chances, would be interested in how many he's gotten in each game because I can really only remember 2-3 games where I thought he did something.
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Dbrownss
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- Jan 5, 2014
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Where's the popcorn at? Holy hell..... Kyrou is going down because he needs PP time and ice time to do his thing. I have no issue saying he's better then Maroon, even if the stats dont show it. Unfortunately he's the oddman out, but that's more on Sanford running with his opportunity. Also with Fabbri returning, there's just no room without injuries.
CaliforniaBlues310
Registered User
Yeah if Kyrou had played like Sanford has, he’d be staying and Zach would be going back down. He simply got his job taken, and that’s okay. He’s a rookie.
Borderbluesfan
Registered User
Kyrou has flashes of good play and then lapses on defense in his own zone! I think he needs a little time to develop at the professional level! Going to AHL will give him top line minutes playing against men that are almost NHL ready. Not bad for his development. Wish we could do this with Thomas, going back to juniors won’t help him, but he’s not quite ready for the NHL. A stint in the AHL would be perfect for his development!!
EastonBlues22
Registered User
No worries. It can easily get confusing when there's parallel conversations going on.
I can understand the results trumps opportunities perspective, but I personally feel like that carries more weight when the sample size is big enough to have a few ebbs and flows averaged in. Kyrou has had 90 minutes of ice time. Chances are pretty good that if he continues generating opportunities at that rate, eventually a few more of them will start going in. I would expect Sanford's production to cool for exactly the same reason, even if he keeps playing exactly like he is right now. ROR too, for that matter. He's simply not finishing with 115 points this season. Things tend to even out in the long run, and right now those two are on the good side of things and Kyrou isn't.
For one thing, players are constantly doing things to help a team score that they don't necessarily get a point for. Setting picks, holding lines, executing a controlled zone entry, back-checking/fore-checking, causing turnovers, winning faceoffs, distracting the coverage of an opponent, etc. You can't get a shot if you don't have possession in the zone, and you can't have that without an entry/faceoff win/turnover at some point, so should we reward theoretical points for all those things as well? They matter just as much, if not more, since you can easily score a goal without a screen, but you're never scoring a goal without establishing possession inside the zone (save for empty net bombs).
Yes, the Blues PP is performing at the moment. Should that stop us from evaluating what about it is working and what isn't doing all that much? I don't think it's unduly harsh to say that very little of that unit's performance can be attributed to Maroon. He's not contributing to the zone entries. His possession play, play-making, and puck skills under pressure are a notable step below most top 6 quality forwards. His best and most frequent contribution is literally receiving a pass at the side of the net, pivoting, and jamming it into the goaltender's pads. Someone like Steen can do anything Maroon is doing while also offering an upgrade in the areas where Maroon is sub-par.
If one doesn't want to rock the boat at the moment, that's fine, but this conversation was started back before the unit got hot (which largely coincided with Dunn's return to it), and it can (and should) be revisited once it inevitably cools off.
If I was setting things up, I'd do something like this:
Perron/ROR/Schenn/Schwartz/Dunn - Run things through Perron on the left wall. ROR/Schenn/Schwartz can all perform in the slot, near the net, or on the right wall, which opens the option of using movement to confuse the coverage and create opportunities...especially if the net guy is playing more as a back door option. The mid/high slot, weak side, back door, and point all offer one-timer options, and you can even swing a pass through the point to the right wall for a one-timer, or to move the puck down low for a jam play or pop-out pass to the guy who was previously positioned back door. I favor having Schwartz down low, ROR in the middle, and Schenn on the right wall if you want to be a bit more static in the positioning.
Kyrou/Bozak/Tarasenko/Steen/Pietrangelo - Run things through Tarasenko on the right wall. With Bozak in the mid/high slot, you have one-timer options there, on the weak side, and at the point, with once again having that swing option through the point to the left wall for a one-timer (a threat that puts some bite into the rotation play). Steen is a capable option down low for a pop-out pass option, jam play, etc. and can screen if the shot is coming from out high. If you want a second defender out there, put Parayko on the left wall instead of Kyrou and you're not messing much with the dynamics and play of the unit.
I'm in full agreement that Kyrou's non-offense game has been sub-par, so I don't want it to sound like I'm saying his overall play has been super-duper. I'm only talking about his offense here.
As far as giveaways go, that's not unusual. He's been asked to carry the puck up the ice on his line far more than someone like Maroon, and he routinely tries to gain the zone with possession as well. Guys who do those things inevitably have more turnovers. Last year the top 20 forwards in giveaways were (in order): Gaudreau, Barzal, Huberdeau, Williams, Draisaitl, Trochek, Larkin, Kucherov, Tavares, Marchand, Pastrnak, Crosby, Lucic, Malkin, Miller, Ovechkin, Kopitar, Hoffman, Hall, and McDavid. No coach is asking most of those guys to dump the puck more, and once Kyrou seasons a little, I don't think we'll want him dumping the puck, either. The turnovers are just going to be the price you pay for the other benefits you receive (the controlled zone entries, and ultimately the scoring chances that derive from those).
Per NaturalStatTrick, here's the 5v5 individual SCF/HDSCF for all of our forwards, as well as their total 5v5 TOI in a TOI, iSCF, iHDSCF format:
Tarasenko, 137:13, 30, 14
Schenn, 140:51, 21, 14
ROR, 134:31, 16, 5
Schwartz, 103:34, 15, 6
Bozak, 112:03, 14, 8
Kyrou, 91:07, 14, 5
Steen, 116:24, 14, 3
Perron, 121:39, 11, 4
Sanford, 53:31 8, 5
Blais, 83:13, 7, 3
Barbashev, 87:24, 7, 2
Thomas, 54:36, 6, 3
Maroon, 115:39, 5, 3
Sundqvist, 15:01, 2, 1
As you can see, nobody is averaging multiple high danger chances a game at 5v5. The league leader in iHDSCF is Tavares at 20 (in 177:28 minutes) in 12 games, with 1.67 per game. Tarasenko and Schenn are the only Blues averaging at least one HDSCF a game, so even that seemingly modest threshold is a pretty high standard.
I think most good forwards feel more dangerous than those numbers would suggest on a game by game basis because our perceptions of them are colored by how effective and dangerous they can look on the PP, where they have more time and space to show off their abilities and where it's generally a lot easier to rack up iSCF/iHDSCF.
In 39:25 minutes of PP TOI, for example, Maroon has 11 iSCF and 8 iHDSCF (Yay, jam plays!). That 11 combined iHDSCF (and 27 overall individual chances), or almost 3 chances a game with 1 of them being high danger, leaves a much different impression of his offensive impact on the game than one would have if they were only watching him play 5v5 every game. I honestly believe that if Maroon wasn't on the PP, there would be a lot of chatter about why he's not already stapled to the 4th line. As it is, there's essentially none.
Anyway, Kyrou's individual offensive production (in terms of chances, anyway) hasn't been up to the standards of the best we have at 5v5, but it's been consistent with the other top 6 options on the team, even with 4th line minutes. As a rookie, I find that to be pretty encouraging, though the sample size is clearly small.
Thus far Maroon's individual production at 5v5 has arguably been the worst on the team. It's notable mostly because I think that will come as a surprise to many given the generally positive impressions of his play at the moment, not because I necessarily expect that to hold true for the rest of the season (as once again small sample size caveats apply).
To be clear, I'm not trying to argue that Kyrou should still be with the big club (though I'm not personally bullish on the move), or make any other roster related arguments. I'm not even trying to throw shade on Maroon, though these numbers aren't particularly flattering for him. I'm just putting this information out there for what it is because you seemed curious and it was worth unpacking it a little bit for discussion.
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Reality Czech
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- Apr 17, 2017
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You forgot this detail, he needs to get much better and more experienced. Some people are just as biased in favor of the rookies. Maroon is a more complete NHL player at this point and I don't see how anyone could argue that. Kid has a lot to learn, but he will be fine.
Someone said it earlier, Blues fans got too obsessed with the shiny new toys. The pro-Thomas/pro-Kyrou bias is pretty strong around here. I get it, we all want to see these kids succeed but they have to earn it.
I wonder how many player agents we have on board. I question why we have so many people complaining about the production of the team, while still advocating for playing the very people who are not contributing to it.
EastonBlues22
Registered User
I think it's a little more nuanced than that, at least for some.
Yes, the team is struggling out the gate, in no small part because their goals against has been atrocious. Not the ideal time to have rookies learning on the job, I'll fully admit.
Are those circumstances their fault, though? The Blues were running a less than ideal system for awhile and everyone was looking terrible defensively during that stretch. I put that on the coach.
Then the coach adjusted the system and the team started playing better, but they still found a way to lose in games they were competitive by making a few key mistakes at critical times. It wasn't the kids making those very crucial mistakes, so again, are they to blame?
Heck, Thomas has only been on the ice for two goals against this season, and Kyrou/Blais for four. As a comparison, Maroon has been out there for 11 ES goals against and Tarasenko for 13. The Blues have given up 39 goals this year, to put those numbers in perspective.
Caveat: I'm not sure what overlap there is between those goals against (i.e. if Blais/Thomas/Kyrou were out there as a line, each would have a goal against for a total of three by these counts, but it would only represent one of the 39 goals against the Blues have, so the apparent impact on the team would be overstated by the numbers I'm reporting relative to the actual impact). Since Kyrou/Thomas/Blais have all spent significant time on the 4th line, that's a real concern. Either way, they're not exactly getting lit up.
Once the team's back was against the wall, it seems like Yeo didn't really feel like he has the luxury of letting the kids learn on the job. I get that, but it's generally not the kids' fault the team is in that position.
If you think the NHL is a better developmental path for Thomas and Kyrou at this point, as I personally do, and if you think there's a chance they could develop into (relatively) useful players by the end of the season, then I feel like there's some room for displeasure about how all this is playing out. Displeasure with where the team currently is in the standings, and with the corner the coach has backed himself into with regards to some of the youngsters he might otherwise be able to cultivate at the NHL level...something the team itself seemed predisposed to doing when camp broke before everything went south.
We'll see how it all plays out, but at some point this team needs to suck it up and break in the guys who are most important to their future. Not give them a taste...really commit to their development at this level and break them in. The longer they find (or back into) reasons to put it off, the longer it will be before the kids will be making a difference. This core won't be together forever, so the clock is ticking.
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