John Tavares the Man the Myth the Legend

[Confucius]

I don't think Isanders fan miss him at all. Better or worse, that franchise had its second most successful run in the period after he left.

I think that would make it worse. Sure we don’t know how the Islanders would have done that season if JT stayed. I’d have to think if they added a 47 goal 88 point player they would have been a better team.

 

[WTFMAN99]

He plays well every year

1 team wins and 31 lose, you think 31 teams are gonna change their players because they didn't win?

That is really dumbing down many years of playoff failure lol.

 

[Confucius]

That is really dumbing down many years of playoff failure lol.

I just looked it up yesterday,since Mathews rookie year the Sens have won more playoff rounds than we have. Lol

Yeah they only made the playoffs once in that time but they won 2 rounds.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yup!

Since he signed here (2018-19 season to now) here's Tavares' rank among centers:

11th in goals
13th in points
8th in powerplay goals
13th in powerplay points
9th in game winning goals
4th in face-off win%

No matter what was said when he signed the deal, he's been worth every penny. That's unquestionably #1C production.

That all looks great until you factor in him starting at the #2 position for contracts in 18-19 and even by the end he’s still in the top 10.

I just hope he can have a good playoff and that the Leafs don’t attach another anchor by paying him too much as he ages out.

 

[conFABulator]

That all looks great until you factor in him starting at the #2 position for contracts in 18-19 and even by the end he’s still in the top 10.

I just hope he can have a good playoff and that the Leafs don’t attach another anchor by paying him too much as he ages out.

Yeah and that looks bad until you remember that the cap went flat due to Covid for almost half of the length on his contract almost immediately after he signed it.

So, we paid a top ten salary for a top 15 C and that's not great, but this one would have aged quite well if the cap did what it was supposed to do.

 

[banks]

That all looks great until you factor in him starting at the #2 position for contracts in 18-19 and even by the end he’s still in the top 10.

I just hope he can have a good playoff and that the Leafs don’t attach another anchor by paying him too much as he ages out.

A superstar UFA is usually among the higher contracts, yes. And, like @conFABulator mentioned, it wouldn't have stayed in the top 10 had a pandemic not hit.

The knock against Tavares from the start was the assumption that he wouldn't be worth the cap hit by the end of the contract. Everyone assumed he'd drop off and then not be able to match the dollar amount. It's impossible to argue now. He played up to the billing for the whole 7 years.

Here's his point-per-game rate for his last 7 Islander years, and his 7 Leaf years. The consistency is staggering:
Islander years .99 - .98 - 1.12 - 1.05 - .90 - .86 - 1.02
Toronto years 1.07 - .95 - .89 - .96 - 1.00 - .81 - 1.03

That's not an anchor for 11 million. It was unquestionably the market value, if not less, at the time. Only the pandemic held back other contracts from catching up in the interim.

 

[Evilhomer]

I think that would make it worse. Sure we don’t know how the Islanders would have done that season if JT stayed. I’d have to think if they added a 47 goal 88 point player they would have been a better team.

I think the argument is that the Islanders became a better "team", even though arguably less talented, when he left.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I just looked it up yesterday,since Mathews rookie year the Sens have won more playoff rounds than we have. Lol

Yeah they only made the playoffs once in that time but they won 2 rounds.

I think Vancouver has more playoff series wins than Toronto in the Matthews era.

I get that only 1 team can win but you need to fundamentally believe you have guys you can build around. I know we tinker around the engines but we need to discuss the guys driving the bus, if Matthews, Marner and JT etc cannot elevate in the playoffs than adding Laughton or Carlo doesn't do anything.

 

[notbias]

I think the argument is that the Islanders became a better "team", even though arguably less talented, when he left.

Nothing to do with coaching, at all.

They also became a much worse team without him.

 

[Evilhomer]

Nothing to do with coaching, at all.

They also became a much worse team without him.

I'm sure there were many factors. I'm just not sure Islanders fans care that Tavares had a strong March in year 7 of his contract. He had 10 points in 12 games in November. I don't think Islanders' fans were celebrating that either. Mostly, I think they probably just don't care anymore because 7 years is a long time to keep hating someone.

 

[kevsh]

The knock against Tavares from the start was the assumption that he wouldn't be worth the cap hit by the end of the contract

But also that it seemed ridiculous to spend $11M in cap space on a 2C, especially with the blue line badly needing major upgrades. At the time of his signing the two positions the Leafs were strongest at were C (AM, Kadri, Bozak) and RW (Marner, Nylander, Kapanen).

Despite how well he's performed nothing changes the fact it was very bad cap management from day one. Unfortunately for John he's taken the most heat for that (outside perhaps Dubas) and we can be thankful he's just focusing on playing the best he can considering.

 

[banks]

But also that it seemed ridiculous to spend $11M in cap space on a 2C, especially with the blue line badly needing major upgrades. At the time of his signing the two positions the Leafs were strongest at were C (AM, Kadri, Bozak) and RW (Marner, Nylander, Kapanen).

Despite how well he's performed nothing changes the fact it was very bad cap management from day one. Unfortunately for John he's taken the most heat for that (outside perhaps Dubas) and we can be thankful he's just focusing on playing the best he can considering.

Then we should hate the Kadri trade, which used our best expendable asset and turned it into a turd in Barrie. Or hate management's failure to find a #3C after Bozak left. It should not be hard for a good management team to replace a #3C. Or blame the bad cap management that gave Marner/Matthews essentially blank cheques when they should have been signed earlier for less. Or blame the GM who thought goaltending could be handled by whoever arrived on the carousel.

Appollo 13s problems started from stirring some oxygen tanks. Then failures cascaded from there. The mistake wasn't stirring the tanks, it was underlying hardware issues that came to light when that action was taken.

Signing Tavares wasn't the problem. It was the underlying management who failed to fix anything else once he was signed.

 

[BraveCanadian]

But also that it seemed ridiculous to spend $11M in cap space on a 2C, especially with the blue line badly needing major upgrades. At the time of his signing the two positions the Leafs were strongest at were C (AM, Kadri, Bozak) and RW (Marner, Nylander, Kapanen).

Despite how well he's performed nothing changes the fact it was very bad cap management from day one. Unfortunately for John he's taken the most heat for that (outside perhaps Dubas) and we can be thankful he's just focusing on playing the best he can considering.

This.. it set off a cascade effect that got the team cap structure into a mess.

A whole bunch of excuses and revisionism in this thread. That said, we can be thankful he didn’t fall totally off and is having a solid season again- but he was absolutely overpaid throughout.

I get the urge to add a star C for “free” but in a cap world things don’t happen in a vacuum.

 

[tmlms13]

But also that it seemed ridiculous to spend $11M in cap space on a 2C, especially with the blue line badly needing major upgrades. At the time of his signing the two positions the Leafs were strongest at were C (AM, Kadri, Bozak) and RW (Marner, Nylander, Kapanen).

Despite how well he's performed nothing changes the fact it was very bad cap management from day one. Unfortunately for John he's taken the most heat for that (outside perhaps Dubas) and we can be thankful he's just focusing on playing the best he can considering.

The cap management at the time of the signing was fine. UFAs like Tavares, a #1 Center, don't come along very often. You don't just ignore it. Kadri is a #2 center on an good team and #3 on a great team which do you want? Bozak is irrelevant, he wasn't a cap casualty, they has no intention of keeping him.

Biggest factors imo and 2 weren't necessarily fault of Management

1. The cap went flat. We wouldn't complain (as much) with 11m if they cap was around 100m like they were projecting 5 years ago. And anyone in management sports or otherwise, makes a 5 year plan. You could argue they should have adjusted on the fly, but they made a plan and stuck with it.

2. Only 1 of their young D developed into impact D (Rielly). 5 busts basically, Gardiner/Zaitsev/Dermott then Lilly/Sandin, Even if you blame the philosophy behind them, scouting & player development department went 1 for 6.

3. We would have done a lot of winning in the first 5 years so it's like meh, 2 years as an anchor wgaf

4. Imo the only deal they really messed up was Marner, which happened AFTER the Tavares signing, because of the Nylander holdout and how bad that season was, a Marner holdout would straight up burn a year of the window.

 

[Legion34]

Kinda funny that people here were seriously arguing that he wasn't even 2C level anymore lol.

Jonas Siegel in shambles

 

[arso40]

The cap management at the time of the signing was fine. UFAs like Tavares, a #1 Center, don't come along very often. You don't just ignore it. Kadri is a #2 center on an good team and #3 on a great team which do you want? Bozak is irrelevant, he wasn't a cap casualty, they has no intention of keeping him.

Biggest factors imo and 2 weren't necessarily fault of Management

1. The cap went flat. We wouldn't complain (as much) with 11m if they cap was around 100m like they were projecting 5 years ago. And anyone in management sports or otherwise, makes a 5 year plan. You could argue they should have adjusted on the fly, but they made a plan and stuck with it.

2. Only 1 of their young D developed into impact D (Rielly). 5 busts basically, Gardiner/Zaitsev/Dermott then Lilly/Sandin, Even if you blame the philosophy behind them, scouting & player development department went 1 for 6.

3. We would have done a lot of winning in the first 5 years so it's like meh, 2 years as an anchor wgaf

4. Imo the only deal they really messed up was Marner, which happened AFTER the Tavares signing, because of the Nylander holdout and how bad that season was, a Marner holdout would straight up burn a year of the window.

You think jt is better than Kadri by that much?

 

[banks]

You think jt is better than Kadri by that much?

I wouldn't call Kadri a #3. He's a #2 without question. But when you factor in suspensions, then I agree with @tmlms13 's point. Tavares was better for Toronto than keeping Kadri. Naz had become a problem.

 

[tmlms13]

I wouldn't call Kadri a #3. He's a #2 without question. But when you factor in suspensions, then I agree with @tmlms13 's point. Tavares was better for Toronto than keeping Kadri. Naz had become a problem.

I'm basing of the quality of the team. Kadri is a #1 on a rebuilding team, a #2 on a Wild Card team, and a #3 on a Cup Contender.

Which do you think the Leafs wanted to be in 2018?

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

 

[ACC1224]

Is that 2nd Star for the Leafs or the league?

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Is that 2nd Star for the Leafs or the league?

League.

 

[Ports]

Not sure why

Then we should hate the Kadri trade, which used our best expendable asset and turned it into a turd in Barrie. Or hate management's failure to find a #3C after Bozak left. It should not be hard for a good management team to replace a #3C. Or blame the bad cap management that gave Marner/Matthews essentially blank cheques when they should have been signed earlier for less. Or blame the GM who thought goaltending could be handled by whoever arrived on the carousel.

Appollo 13s problems started from stirring some oxygen tanks. Then failures cascaded from there. The mistake wasn't stirring the tanks, it was underlying hardware issues that came to light when that action was taken.

Signing Tavares wasn't the problem. It was the underlying management who failed to fix anything else once he was signed.

Tavares’ signing set the salary bar for Marner and Matthews who were both better players than Tavares was at the time. Tavares contract also restricted their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and having four similar style forwards taking half the salary cap was never going to work. I blame Shanahan and Dubas who thought they knew better than other GM’s how to construct a cup contender. None of this is JT’s fault BTW.

 

[ACC1224]

League.

That's awesome!

 

[arso40]

I wouldn't call Kadri a #3. He's a #2 without question. But when you factor in suspensions, then I agree with @tmlms13 's point. Tavares was better for Toronto than keeping Kadri. Naz had become a problem.

Yes and no he definitely Became a problem doesn’t mean you replace it with an 11 million dollar player and not atleast capitalize on him being an asset I think that’s the biggest issue we replaced him with 6.5 more on the cap and got fleeced with Barrie n kerfoot as replacements that didnt strengthen our weakness which was defence

 

[banks]

Yes and no he definitely Became a problem doesn’t mean you replace it with an 11 million dollar player and not atleast capitalize on him being an asset I think that’s the biggest issue we replaced him with 6.5 more on the cap and got fleeced with Barrie n kerfoot as replacements that didnt strengthen our weakness which was defence

This part I agree with. Barrie was the worst Leaf this team has had in a long time. He was absolutely the worst thing for this team and for the blueline specifically.

With a real defender in place of Barrie, and not jumping on the goalie carousel (Mrazek, Campbell, Samsonov, Murray), the Leafs would have made a couple deep playoff runs by now. Maybe even some wins in a Cup Final.