Joe Thornton vs Leon Draisaitl. Better player?

[Sanderson]

Draisaitl came into the league as a playmaking center with his passing being his biggest asset, he literally developed his goal scoring playing with McDavid because of circumstance and role.

Given Thornton's own talents, it's not exactly hard to see him continue to develop and be a 50 goal scorer, he was trending that way in Boston, even with his linemate situation (isn't like Glen Murray could set him up that well).

Got his face caved in by Lindros, became more of a perimeter player, yada yada.

No, he didn't develop his goal scoring because of McDavid. You don't magically develop a great shot and become a sniper just because you play with someone who can pass the puck (that doesn't even take into account that he often wasn't even playing with McDavid). A very good goalscorer can improve his output by playing with a great playmaker, but he still needs to be a goalscorer in the first place. That comes from having the talent for it, working on it, and developing the mindset for it.

Glen Murray was a good goalscorer, Joe Thornton just managed to get a bit more out of him than before. Jonathan Cheechoo showed what he was capable of when he scored 28 goals playing on the third line with hardly any pp-time. Thornton just managed to be the right fit for him. Dany Heatley didn't get any such improvement, because he ws already an elite goalscorer who had played with a great playmaker in Spezza before.

Joe Thornton never had the mindset to become a 50 goal scorer. He simply wouldn't shoot enough for that. He also wasn't "trending that way" in Boston either. His peak goalscoring seasons still lacked the volume of shots necessary, and relied heavily on the powerplay working much better than in other years. E.g. he scored more pp-goals in his best goalscoring season than in the following two seasons combined. There wasn't really more room to grow from that, not with his shot-volume being what it was. The one year he actually shot a bit more - though still not enough for 50 - his shot-percentage dropped significantly, and his output was nowhere near his peak goalscoring.

 

[Lolaimbot]

Draisaitl is a better passer on his back hand than his forehand, it’s why he’s so hard to defend

Watching this might give someone a crazy idea that maybe, just maybe McDavid and Draisaitl both benefit from each other. Aftermath is like post nut clarity when you realise that McDavid is just carrying this scrub.

 

[Regal]

Saying he wouldnt score 50 is just speculation.

As far as Draisaitl or the topic of the thread goes, I have no opinion because I dont pay enough attention to Draisaitl.

I just like to stick up for my boy JT because its obvious that many on these boards have strong opinions of him without ever having paid attention to his game.

I mean if you’re going to call it speculation to say a player who scored 30 goals twice and topped out at 37 wouldn’t score 50 then just about everything is speculation.

 

[Regal]

Draisaitl came into the league as a playmaking center with his passing being his biggest asset, he literally developed his goal scoring playing with McDavid because of circumstance and role.

Given Thornton's own talents, it's not exactly hard to see him continue to develop and be a 50 goal scorer, he was trending that way in Boston, even with his linemate situation (isn't like Glen Murray could set him up that well).

Got his face caved in by Lindros, became more of a perimeter player, yada yada.

Maybe Draisaitl would have been more pass-heavy if he never played with a player like McDavid, but I think you’re underrating the work he’s done to hone his skills here. Very few players would develop into the shooter Draisaitl has become and it’s unlikely Thornton would have done so either. He definitely changed his game after Lindros beat his face but even if he didn’t, his two big goal scoring years were likely more the range we might have saw from him: 35-40. He didn’t shoot enough and already had high PP totals those years that were unlikely to go up. Draisaitl meanwhile has averaged 51 goals per 82 over 7 seasons now.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Saying he wouldnt score 50 is just speculation.

As far as Draisaitl or the topic of the thread goes, I have no opinion because I dont pay enough attention to Draisaitl.

I just like to stick up for my boy JT because its obvious that many on these boards have strong opinions of him without ever having paid attention to his game.

Sticking up for Thornton is one thing. Saying he'd also score 50 goals next to McDavid is another.

There is nothing in how Thornton played the game that suggests he'd be a 50 goal scorer. His entire mindset was pass, pass, pass. That was almost one of the criticisms of him is that he's too predictable. You know he's going to make that extra pass even when he has a clear shot on net.

 

[CupofOil]

Draisaitl is just as good a playmaker and a far better goal scorer, plus he's a far better playoff performer. I don't think there's any doubt who is better

 

[hockfan1991]

How much of Leon’s success comes from playing with McDavid?

Did Thornton ever get the luxury of playing with someone of the caliber?

Nope he just turned regular guys into Rocket Richard winners and made borderline pressbox players 20 goal scorers.

 

[hockfan1991]

Is that you Joe?

surely Joe would spell his name correctly

 

[Gerulaitis]

I think it is clearly Draisaitl

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Sticking up for Thornton is one thing. Saying he'd also score 50 goals next to McDavid is another.

There is nothing in how Thornton played the game that suggests he'd be a 50 goal scorer. His entire mindset was pass, pass, pass. That was almost one of the criticisms of him is that he's too predictable. You know he's going to make that extra pass even when he has a clear shot on net.

Exactly. He would pass if he was looking at an empty net. Thornton had a great shot but wouldn't use it.

 

[McFlash97]

Put it this way. Replace Thornton with Draisaitl on this Oilers team and what do you think happens ?

Thornton was never in Draisaitls league

 

[tiburon12]

Sticking up for Thornton is one thing. Saying he'd also score 50 goals next to McDavid is another.

There is nothing in how Thornton played the game that suggests he'd be a 50 goal scorer. His entire mindset was pass, pass, pass. That was almost one of the criticisms of him is that he's too predictable. You know he's going to make that extra pass even when he has a clear shot on net.

Sharks fans will remember the jokes about him passing it into empty nets, but real nerdy Sharks fans will remember a post-season "State of the Sharks" meeting between STHs and the brass that featured Thornton, and an exasperated fan asked "Joe, why don't you shoot the puck?!"

Also "i'm a disher".....as you said, nothing about him suggests he was even interested in trying to score 50

 

[Fourier]

No, he didn't develop his goal scoring because of McDavid. You don't magically develop a great shot and become a sniper just because you play with someone who can pass the puck (that doesn't even take into account that he often wasn't even playing with McDavid). A very good goalscorer can improve his output by playing with a great playmaker, but he still needs to be a goalscorer in the first place. That comes from having the talent for it, working on it, and developing the mindset for it.

Glen Murray was a good goalscorer, Joe Thornton just managed to get a bit more out of him than before. Jonathan Cheechoo showed what he was capable of when he scored 28 goals playing on the third line with hardly any pp-time. Thornton just managed to be the right fit for him. Dany Heatley didn't get any such improvement, because he ws already an elite goalscorer who had played with a great playmaker in Spezza before.

Joe Thornton never had the mindset to become a 50 goal scorer. He simply wouldn't shoot enough for that. He also wasn't "trending that way" in Boston either. His peak goalscoring seasons still lacked the volume of shots necessary, and relied heavily on the powerplay working much better than in other years. E.g. he scored more pp-goals in his best goalscoring season than in the following two seasons combined. There wasn't really more room to grow from that, not with his shot-volume being what it was. The one year he actually shot a bit more - though still not enough for 50 - his shot-percentage dropped significantly, and his output was nowhere near his peak goalscoring.

I certainly don't disagree with the bolded, but had McDavid not been an Oiler I am not sure Draisaitl would have become nearly the goal scorer he is today. I think he of course would have always had the talent, but of the three things in your bolded list the last two may well have been influenced substantially by playing with McDavid. That shot from just above the goal line was something he started working on in tandem with McDavid after a couple of years in the league. You could see them practicing this in warm-ups before it became a thing. Without McDavid I am not sure why he would have ever perfected this particular skill. It is not something you would have expected from a guy who would otherwise have always been the main puck carrier on his line. Even playing with another alpha like Hall, I don't see this particular attribute, something that has become very much his signature, developing naturally. In the end, I think playing with McDavid was a key to his developing that goal scorer's mindset that you talk about. That is not to say he could not have done so anyway, but playing with McDavid, there is only one puck, so you figure out how best to share.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Put it this way. Replace Thornton with Draisaitl on this Oilers team and what do you think happens ?

Thornton was never in Draisaitls league

Thornton was just as talented as Draisaitl and had a great shot. He wasn't as effective in the playoffs because he wouldn't shoot enough.

 

[sr edler]

Draisaitl's better, for sure, much more multi-dimensional and more of a gamer as well.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Saw both plenty. Overall as a player I think Draisaitl is better

 

[HolyHagelin]

Thornton was just as talented as Draisaitl and had a great shot. He wasn't as effective in the playoffs because he wouldn't shoot enough.

If you have a strong ability that you won't use, then you don't really have that strong ability.

Drai, by a pretty wide margin. Thornton is like a top-70 or so level player. Drai is like a t30, maybe t20 by the time he's done.

 

[The Shadow]

I certainly don't disagree with the bolded, but had McDavid not been an Oiler I am not sure Draisaitl would have become nearly the goal scorer he is today. I think he of course would have always had the talent, but of the three things in your bolded list the last two may well have been influenced substantially by playing with McDavid. That shot from just above the goal line was something he started working on in tandem with McDavid after a couple of years in the league. You could see them practicing this in warm-ups before it became a thing. Without McDavid I am not sure why he would have ever perfected this particular skill. It is not something you would have expected from a guy who would otherwise have always been the main puck carrier on his line. Even playing with another alpha like Hall, I don't see this particular attribute, something that has become very much his signature, developing naturally. In the end, I think playing with McDavid was a key to his developing that goal scorer's mindset that you talk about. That is not to say he could not have done so anyway, but playing with McDavid, there is only one puck, so you figure out how best to share.

Please use paragraphs for those of us on smaller screens

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Sticking up for Thornton is one thing. Saying he'd also score 50 goals next to McDavid is another.

There is nothing in how Thornton played the game that suggests he'd be a 50 goal scorer. His entire mindset was pass, pass, pass. That was almost one of the criticisms of him is that he's too predictable. You know he's going to make that extra pass even when he has a clear shot on net.

I still remember young Thornton as a goal-scoring power forward. (In 2001, he ranked T-16th in goals - top ten in goals per game- and only ranked T-84th in assists). He was aggressive, undisciplined, used his considerable size and strength to throw big hits, and was even willing to drop the gloves. I don't make this comparison lightly, but he looked like a young Eric Lindros.

Over the next two years, someone - not sure if it was Thornton himself, his agent, or Bruins management - probably realized that Thornton would have a longer, healthier career if he stopped playing like a typical DPE power forward. 1,700+ games and 1,500+ points later (not to mention approximately $110M in career earnings), it's hard not to argue with the results.

 

[hohosaregood]

I still remember young Thornton as a goal-scoring power forward. (In 2001, he ranked T-16th in goals - top ten in goals per game- and only ranked T-84th in assists). He was aggressive, undisciplined, used his considerable size and strength to throw big hits, and was even willing to drop the gloves. I don't make this comparison lightly, but he looked like a young Eric Lindros.

Over the next two years, someone - not sure if it was Thornton himself, his agent, or Bruins management - probably realized that Thornton would have a longer, healthier career if he stopped playing like a typical DPE power forward. 1,700+ games and 1,500+ points later (not to mention approximately $110M in career earnings), it's hard not to argue with the results.

I remember that he talked about having to change his game due to back injuries with how prevalent that specific brand of crosschecking was back then. I think if he were coming up in the modern NHL, he'd have followed Draisaitl's offensive development path and maintained his shooting.