Joe Thornton vs Leon Draisaitl. Better player?

[spiny norman]

It's a good thing this thread wasn't moved to the Polls subforum because I would have closed it for being lopsided.

 

[karltonian]

Who are the three? There’s McDavid and RNH, and RNH is one of the luckiest players to ever hit 100, and even in that season was never as good as Marleau or Heatley or Pavelski when they played with Thornton. Trying to suggest Draisaitl has had a lot more offensive help relative to Thornton beyond just McDavid is a bit ridiculous.

Yet he did score over 100 when he had the opportunity and all the rest mentioned didn't. RNH was a 1OA for a reason. Sure he doesn't mean as much as Mcdavid but again Mcdavid is like Thornton having Jagr, Crosby, or Lindros when each was arguably the best player in the league (and it's never been arguable with Mcdavid). Having another player that can run with the opportunity is huge even for one year, that's something Thornton never got.

 

[91Fedorov91]

Draisaitl is a better passer on his back hand than his forehand, it’s why he’s so hard to defend

Thornton's backhand pass was better.

 

[AvroArrow]

Draisaitl without thinking twice

Thornton is a great HOFer himself, it's no diss to him. Maybe the best playmaker of his generation, but Drai in the playoffs is something else.

 

[Fourier]

Thornton drastically changed his game multiple times through his career

I was speaking specifically of the conversion from a playmaker first and foremost to a league leading sniper to play with McDavid.

I'll say again, Thornton was a great player. One of my favourites of his generation.

 

[PistolPete]

Thornton drastically changed his game multiple times through his career

From Choke, to choker, to chokest?

A lll' HFB inspired humour.

 

[karltonian]

From Choke, to choker, to chokest?

A lll' HFB inspired humour.

He never did any of those. His specialty was chocking.

 

[McFlyingV]

Thornton's backhand pass was better.

9:33 of the 2nd video pass by Drai is significantly better than that Thornton pass. Thornton pass was Modano controller disconnected level defending.

 

[NVious]

How is this even a thread still? What is there to argue? One of the biggest playoff chokers of all time vs a playoff God, compare Dionne to Gretzky next.

 

[Nasti]

Kings fan who saw plenty of both in the playoffs. Draisaitl by miles. Thornton never had a great playoff. Not even one time.

 

[Regal]

Yet he did score over 100 when he had the opportunity and all the rest mentioned didn't. RNH was a 1OA for a reason. Sure he doesn't mean as much as Mcdavid but again Mcdavid is like Thornton having Jagr, Crosby, or Lindros when each was arguably the best player in the league (and it's never been arguable with Mcdavid). Having another player that can run with the opportunity is huge even for one year, that's something Thornton never got.

You’re dramatically overrating that year. As mentioned, his production was partly a product of the league, which needs to be put into contex. Thornton’s linemates didn’t score 100 in part because it was harder to score 100. He also scored a bunch on the PP because the Oilers had a historically good PP that was based around McDavid and Draisaitl. At 5v5 he was significantly worse than Thornton’s best linemates.

I agree McDavid is an advantage, but I think you’re overrating that as well. When they play together, it’s dynamite. But he also plays a ton without him and in those situations he’s getting worse linemates. You mention Joe potentially playing with Crosby, but we saw with Malkin that sometimes being “the man” with the best linemates on the team can actually lead to better totals.

 

[karltonian]

You’re dramatically overrating that year. As mentioned, his production was partly a product of the league, which needs to be put into contex. Thornton’s linemates didn’t score 100 in part because it was harder to score 100. He also scored a bunch on the PP because the Oilers had a historically good PP that was based around McDavid and Draisaitl. At 5v5 he was significantly worse than Thornton’s best linemates.

I agree McDavid is an advantage, but I think you’re overrating that as well. When they play together, it’s dynamite. But he also plays a ton without him and in those situations he’s getting worse linemates. You mention Joe potentially playing with Crosby, but we saw with Malkin that sometimes being “the man” with the best linemates on the team can actually lead to better totals.

It is always helpful for a player's scoring to have a top tier player playing anywhere else in the lineup. On the same line or otherwise. Even out of the lineup, teams will have most tape on versions of the team with the top player. Couture for example feasted when Thornton commanded the top defensive scheme and players; he was a consistent playoff performer and it is in no small measure because Thornton dominated his part of the game.

 

[landy]

Thornton. One did it with marleau. The other did it with McDavid.

 

[Duke74]

Thornton. One did it with marleau. The other did it with McDavid.

Shouldn't you be on the golf course with your buddy Nate?

 

[NYRnine94]

One guy has 133 points in 90 playoffs games. The other guy has 134 points in 187 playoff games. 1 less point 97 less games and people are trying to compare these two players? Is this a serious thread? I don't give a shit who Draisaitl plays with, the guy is a f***ing beast out there. The answer is Draisaitl without a doubt. Close this one up. 133 points in 90 games, case closed.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Can’t believe this is still being discussed lmao

 

[Turin]

Draisaitl is better. Can carry a team in the playoffs almost single handedly

 

[BenchBrawl]

Thornton had more raw talent, I think, but not by much.

Draisaitl proved his game translated way better in the post-season. By an enormous margin.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

I do think Thornton was the better possession player, and his underlying numbers generally attest to that. Even in the playoffs his expected goals numbers were strong, whereas Draisaitl’s generally haven’t been away from McDavid (though he usually plays with weaker linemates when apart). At the same time, I think that’s partly how the league was at the time. We tend to see more rush chances and counter attacks today than we used to when Joe was in his prime where the cycle was king.

Lol yeah who wants actual production when we can hide behind expected. Leons got like 31 less goals and 600ish posts less in almost 1000 less games played. Don't even need to mention Thornton's playoff play.

 

[3074326]

Thornton. One did it with marleau. The other did it with McDavid.

lol

Draisaitl AINEC, he's the better player to anyone who has eyes

 

[Regal]

Lol yeah who wants actual production when we can hide behind expected. Leons got like 31 less goals and 600ish posts less in almost 1000 less games played. Don't even need to mention Thornton's playoff play.

Where did I say we don’t?

 

[Regal]

It is always helpful for a player's scoring to have a top tier player playing anywhere else in the lineup. On the same line or otherwise. Even out of the lineup, teams will have most tape on versions of the team with the top player. Couture for example feasted when Thornton commanded the top defensive scheme and players; he was a consistent playoff performer and it is in no small measure because Thornton dominated his part of the game.

For lesser players like Couture, yes. I don’t believe this is always the case for players at the level of Thornton or Draisaitl and I don’t think the stats tend to bare that out when you look at two-headed monster teams when one of them is out of the lineup. That hasn’t been the case in the brief periods McDavid has been out of the lineup. It wasn’t the case when Crosby was out for Malkin. It wasn’t the case with Forsberg and Sakic. Gretzky and Messier, etc. You can talk about “tape without them in the lineup” but that seems like a pretty minor factor. This tends to only be the case when two superstars play with each other almost exclusively, like a Kariya-Selanne situation.

 

[landy]

lol

Draisaitl AINEC, he's the better player to anyone who has eyes

Again, imagine if Thornton played with a prime Lemieux/Jagr/Crosby/whoever from 1997 to 2015 (his last ppg season). Youre vastly underestimated how good Thornton was. Or a guy who chills in the corner and can rip a one timer while the most skilled player weve ever seen dances around distracting everyone.

 

[karltonian]

Again, imagine if Thornton played with a prime Lemieux/Jagr/Crosby/whoever from 1997 to 2015 (his last ppg season). Youre vastly underestimated how good Thornton was. Or a guy who chills in the corner and can rip a one timer while the most skilled player weve ever seen dances around distracting everyone.

People don't want to admit how much that matters, especially in the playoffs. When you have the best player in every single series, who is so good that he cannot be stopped, you start with a massive advantage.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Again, imagine if Thornton played with a prime Lemieux/Jagr/Crosby/whoever from 1997 to 2015 (his last ppg season). Youre vastly underestimated how good Thornton was. Or a guy who chills in the corner and can rip a one timer while the most skilled player weve ever seen dances around distracting everyone.

It's fair to say that we don't know how Draisaitl would fare as his team's top guy...but it is hard to imagine him fairing worse than playoff! Joe Thornton. We also know that once Thornton was relegated to a secondary role (albeit not behind some great talent like McDavid), he still underperformed expectations.

Thornton was Cinderella; he'd turn into a pumpkin once the playoffs started.