Player Discussion Jimmy Vesey

[Machinehead]

People would rather think that there's poor leadership than admit that maybe, Vesey is a very limited player.

I never understood that logic. I'd rather say my team just sucked than say my team didn't care. But for many it seems to be the opposite. They'll blame anything they can on leadership and effort.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Like some others out there my expectations for Vesey were probably too high and can't help but feel somewhat disappointed. Part of it I think is that it's hard for me to point to a part of Vesey's game and say "at least he's got that going for him", like when Kreider struggled early on you could still be encouraged by his speed and ability to physically dominate. It's not clear to me what Vesey's strengths are.

For those who have a better read on his skill set, what do you see as Vesey's strengths? Better still, what player would Vesey compare to if he reaches his potential?

Granted I haven't seen him play since the playoffs but I will tell you what I see.

Solid size
Better than expected skating
Shows a lot of hustle at times but needs to do that consistently
Very good and decisive shooter from the hash marks in.
Solid snap shot
Knows how to use his legs to protect the puck while driving past defensemen to the net.

I saw a kid that has pretty good skills but needs to improve how he takes care of the puck, and adjust to the speed of the game. The last part is the key part. I wish he would watch some games on film and more importantly from the press box. The game seems slower when watching then being on the ice.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Kreider was just like Vesey. In fact, Kreider had less hockey smarts than Vesey did. Vesey at his age was a much more intelligent hockey player.

Vesey just doesn't have that kind of speed. Saying he's limited is ridiculous.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

People would rather think that there's poor leadership than admit that maybe, Vesey is a very limited player.

I never understood that logic. I'd rather say my team just sucked than say my team didn't care. But for many it seems to be the opposite. They'll blame anything they can on leadership and effort.

The problem is that the hype surrounding Vesey has created these expectations of him being a game-changer. He's a potential middle-6 winger with a very, very limited chance to be more than that.

It's nice to get a free prospect like Vesey the way we did, but when Liam Neeson, Susan Sarandon and other celebrities get involved, the general consensus is "Wow, this Vesey kid must be some amazing player"

Then, when he has a mediocre season, it's all on AV. You can say a lot about AV, but not that he didn't give Vesey a chance. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Ever since early December, Vesey's play has dropped significantly and he never was held accountable for that. He got chance after chance to be in the top-6 when it was clear that didn't work.

I am not upset Buchnevich was sent to Hartford or a healthy scratch. he deserved it. What pisses me off, is that Vesey didn't get the same treatment when it was clear he wasn't performing the way he should. The NCAA-wall, which me and silverfish mentioned time and time again to make people understand he wasn't going to last, hit in December and he was only a healthy scratch in April. Vesey is the kind of kid that gets a pass because of the way he joined the team. I am not saying it's marketing or anything, but just the result of the whole circus surrounding his upcoming free agency status.

Vesey could have benefited from a few weeks in Hartford. Easier matchups, lower expectations, less spotlights aimed at him. He could have taken a step back, focus on the basics of his play and get some confidence back. Instead, he was a liability defensively and almost invisible offensively.

Say what you want about Buchnevich, but aside from the fact that he wasn't physically ready, mentally he was and is miles ahead of Vesey. Playing pro-hockey for several years in Russia does that to you. The myth that Buchnevich is poor defensively needs to die because he really isn't.

Vesey will be one of those players like Stepan and Hayes, but only in the way that he never plays a game in the AHL. That's as far as the comparison goes. Vesey can be a solid 3rd line center with PP time and a good chance to grow into a 2nd liner. But fans (And I don't mean guys here on HF, but more the general fans) need to realize Vesey isn't and never will be a star.

 

[Larrybiv]

@kreiderman......not sure about everyone else, but I too had high expectations. Not that he would be a so called "star", but I really thought he would be more of a difference maker. He showed many signs of such very early on in the year. That start was what probably accentuated what I thought he would me more "like".

It seemed around the 40 game mark where he became more and more invisible.
Articles in the tabloids etc.about the "reasons" for his disappearance. It all made sense, a situation similar to Hayes but Hayes rebounded later on in his 1st year, didn't he? That is where I became "disappointed". I really thought he would have found a second wind.

What I did see were just "flashes" of what he hopefully becomes on a night in and night out basis. One can only hope.

On top of what was already stated about him......I saw
Good speed through the neutral zone and a confidence to do something good with the puck.
An ability to steal the puck with good back checking and a quick stick. That's what stood out, but can be improved upon. Time will tell.

 

[Kaapodonna]

The problem is that the hype surrounding Vesey has created these expectations of him being a game-changer. He's a potential middle-6 winger with a very, very limited chance to be more than that.

It's nice to get a free prospect like Vesey the way we did, but when Liam Neeson, Susan Sarandon and other celebrities get involved, the general consensus is "Wow, this Vesey kid must be some amazing player"

Then, when he has a mediocre season, it's all on AV. You can say a lot about AV, but not that he didn't give Vesey a chance. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Ever since early December, Vesey's play has dropped significantly and he never was held accountable for that. He got chance after chance to be in the top-6 when it was clear that didn't work.

I am not upset Buchnevich was sent to Hartford or a healthy scratch. he deserved it. What pisses me off, is that Vesey didn't get the same treatment when it was clear he wasn't performing the way he should. The NCAA-wall, which me and silverfish mentioned time and time again to make people understand he wasn't going to last, hit in December and he was only a healthy scratch in April. Vesey is the kind of kid that gets a pass because of the way he joined the team. I am not saying it's marketing or anything, but just the result of the whole circus surrounding his upcoming free agency status.

Vesey could have benefited from a few weeks in Hartford. Easier matchups, lower expectations, less spotlights aimed at him. He could have taken a step back, focus on the basics of his play and get some confidence back. Instead, he was a liability defensively and almost invisible offensively.

Say what you want about Buchnevich, but aside from the fact that he wasn't physically ready, mentally he was and is miles ahead of Vesey. Playing pro-hockey for several years in Russia does that to you. The myth that Buchnevich is poor defensively needs to die because he really isn't.

Vesey will be one of those players like Stepan and Hayes, but only in the way that he never plays a game in the AHL. That's as far as the comparison goes. Vesey can be a solid 3rd line center with PP time and a good chance to grow into a 2nd liner. But fans (And I don't mean guys here on HF, but more the general fans) need to realize Vesey isn't and never will be a star.

Well said AK, I agree 100. Vesey DEFINITELY needed some time in Hartford. I wonder tho, in order to get him to sign, did the guarantee they wouldn't send him ti the minors?

 

[we want cup]

Well said AK, I agree 100. Vesey DEFINITELY needed some time in Hartford. I wonder tho, in order to get him to sign, did the guarantee they wouldn't send him ti the minors?

Even if Vesey didn't demand it, they might have considered how doing so would impact their ability to sign college FAs in the future.

 

[Edge]

I think we're still at least a year away from knowing what kind of player Vesey is.

His rookie season was not unlike a lot of kids coming out of college, and generally speaking this team performance was uneven for the second half of the season.

I think Vesey is comfortably in that 15-20 goal range, 30-40 points. Probably a second line player, with spurts of more, but ultimately a steady, if un-spectacular contributor in his career. And that would still make it a very good signing.

 

[Trxjw]

Chris. Higgins.

The hype train was strong with Vesey. Once that dies down, he'll carve out a nice career as a complimentary scoring winger. 20/20 with maybe a 50pt year sprinkled in now and then.

 

[Edge]

Chris. Higgins.

The hype train was strong with Vesey. Once that dies down, he'll carve out a nice career as a complimentary scoring winger. 20/20 with maybe a 50pt year sprinkled in now and then.

I think there's a couple of things at work here.

1. We still have a tendency to over-project a lot of guys. Once that gets stuck in the mind of the collective, it's very hard to break away from that.

2. The scoring criteria is changing again. Twenty years ago a very good first line winger would put up 30-40 goals. Ten years ago it was more like 25-35. Today a guy in the 20-30 range is a first line winger.

There's also a number of guys who fall into that 15-20 range who play a variety of roles. Things are just spread out a lot more now.

So with that said, what once would've seemed underwhelming (projecting a guy to score 15-20 goals), is now considered pretty good. But I don't know if our expectations have quite caught up with that. You still see a lot of 25 goal projections, 60-70 point projections, etc., and guys just aren't hitting those numbers as regularly these days - and not just for us.

 

[darko]

Chris. Higgins.

The hype train was strong with Vesey. Once that dies down, he'll carve out a nice career as a complimentary scoring winger. 20/20 with maybe a 50pt year sprinkled in now and then.

And that's a good player right there.

 

[Edge]

And that's a good player right there.

I always liked Higgins. I was so disappointed he never found his niche for us or worked out.

 

[Trxjw]

I think there's a couple of things at work here.

1. We still have a tendency to over-project a lot of guys. Once that gets stuck in the mind of the collective, it's very hard to break away from that.

2. The scoring criteria is changing again. Twenty years ago a very good first line winger would put up 30-40 goals. Ten years ago it was more like 25-35. Today a guy in the 20-30 range is a first line winger.

There's also a number of guys who fall into that 15-20 range who play a variety of roles. Things are just spread out a lot more now.

So with that said, what once would've seemed underwhelming (projecting a guy to score 15-20 goals), is now considered pretty good. But I don't know if our expectations have quite caught up with that. You still see a lot of 25 goal projections, 60-70 point projections, etc., and guys just aren't hitting those numbers as regularly these days - and not just for us.

All very true. He'll struggle to win favor with some fans because he was propped up considerably. That's just the way it is. Getting 20 goals out of a guy that just fell into our laps is fantastic no matter how you slice it.

At least in Vesey's case it wasn't just a case of the fan base over-projecting him. The media definitely pushed the narrative as well.

 

[Trxjw]

And that's a good player right there.

Absolutely. I threw Higgins out as a comparable last year and people weren't happy with it. I think it's mainly because people remember his struggles here instead of how successful he was in Montreal. He had 4 straight 20+ goal seasons. Nothing to sneeze at for sure.

 

[Thordic]

40-50 point player was all I ever expected, to be honest. Anyone who didn't realize he was being way overhyped was likely disappointed but I saw a guy with good toolbox struggling to adapt to the NHL. But I didn't see any glaring deficiencies in his game. As someone pointed out, Kreider had the same problem for a while.

He'll come around, and be a solid middle-six guy. Which is pretty good for a freebie.

 

[Inferno]

I always liked Higgins. I was so disappointed he never found his niche for us or worked out.

Higgins did literally everything right...except for score...the guy could have an empty net...no goalie..breakaway..and would totally Stefan it.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

This kid is good between the hash marks. It was something that really surprised me in the playoffs. He cut in and was electric. Thats where his game will be. He needs to get more involved physically if he ever wants to be more than a 3rd line winger.. Not necessarily a big hitting kid of guy but use his body to protect the puck, get infront of the net, and win on the boards.

 

[True Blue]

Ever since early December, Vesey's play has dropped significantly and he never was held accountable for that. He got chance after chance to be in the top-6 when it was clear that didn't work.

This is a kid who never played more than 40 games in one season. I think a drop off in play was a very realistic scenario.

 

[Inferno]

I saw it a bit different TBH.

Vesey got LIT THE EFF UP like 3 games in a row with huge hits...and it took him a LOOOOONNNGGG time to get going again... not lazy..not stupid...the guy was playing a little scared...who can blame him.

 

[LeetchisGod]

I saw it a bit different TBH.

Vesey got LIT THE EFF UP like 3 games in a row with huge hits...and it took him a LOOOOONNNGGG time to get going again... not lazy..not stupid...the guy was playing a little scared...who can blame him.

Very true. Buch took some big hits as well.

 

[offdacrossbar]

yup JV got hammered a few times and lost his mojo.

i like the kids game. he's got good wheels and is faster with the puck which is good. he seems to know where to go and his shot is very good. coming off the wall, he's dangerous.

2nd year can be tough though.

he's got game for sure and i like him with nash and hayes. thats a power line and a good solid cycle grind line.

i think he's gonna be a solid 2nd line guy who can learn from rick nash.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Absolutely. I threw Higgins out as a comparable last year and people weren't happy with it. I think it's mainly because people remember his struggles here instead of how successful he was in Montreal. He had 4 straight 20+ goal seasons. Nothing to sneeze at for sure.

then he came here.....

 

[NickyFotiu]

yup JV got hammered a few times and lost his mojo.

i like the kids game. he's got good wheels and is faster with the puck which is good. he seems to know where to go and his shot is very good. coming off the wall, he's dangerous.

2nd year can be tough though.

he's got game for sure and i like him with nash and hayes. thats a power line and a good solid cycle grind line.

i think he's gonna be a solid 2nd line guy who can learn from rick nash.

That line was pretty bad when they played together early in the season.

 

[CasusBelli]

40-50 point player was all I ever expected, to be honest. Anyone who didn't realize he was being way overhyped was likely disappointed but I saw a guy with good toolbox struggling to adapt to the NHL. But I didn't see any glaring deficiencies in his game. As someone pointed out, Kreider had the same problem for a while.

He'll come around, and be a solid middle-six guy. Which is pretty good for a freebie.

The thing is that Kreider has always had remarkable speed and strength. None of Vesey's physical attributes or game stood out to me. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he has two 60-point seasons.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Did a 40-50 point player become a bad thing?