StiffSquid
Registered User
He's doing great , and that is great to see. Hopefully he can keep it up. He was caught out of position so many times last year , and there is nothing like that going on this year. Things are looking up
Someone pointed out that Dubnyk played 68 games so for the 17 games you can throw in the goalie you picked up as part of the trade. There are lots of back up goalies playing as starters right now.
Okay, I just see lots of teams complaining about losing because they have no goalie. Take Las Vegas for example. They also need to win right now to keep their fans interested. If you wait till the draft their guys are healthy so they don't need him anymore.
They can have Hutchinson and we can have a 3rd rounder or they can have Mason we call up Comrie and we get a 2nd rounder. At least that's how I figured. People have proven me wrong.The wild overplay Dubnyk and no team wants 17 automatic losses. It's better to have two good goalies.
They can have Hutchinson.
They can have Hutchinson and we can have a 3rd rounder or they can have Mason we call up Comrie and we get a 2nd rounder. At least that's how I figured. People have proven me wrong.
Interesting point. I don't know how much a second rounder is really worth because I thought few of them rarely have an impact.In this scenario--which I don't think is likely; it's more like a third and a fifth for Mason and a fifth or lousy prospect for Hutchinson--I would keep Mason and downgrade the pick ten times out of ten.
What if Hellebuyck goes through a tough stretch? I mean, it happened last year and Hutchinson wasn't up to the task of sheltering him. Do you think Comrie is?
I'm not sure you can pull that card after one loss lol. We knew he would have an off night and lose evectually. If he stinks next 4 in a row then you have a point. Mason's turn to step up, get a shut out tonight and get a streak of his own going.
Hendricks and Matthias were painful to watch tonight. Hendricks is so slow and kills penalties, yikes!
Wheeler and Scheif won't be broken up folks so get used to it. I'd like a swap of top two centres to but ain't holding my breath. When MP is back go:
MP Lowry armia
Lemieux copp Tanev
That's a decent bottom 6.
Lastly, what has happened to buff this year? He had the roughest night of them all.
VGK | NOV 10 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 22 | 17 | .773 | 0 | 39:50 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
DAL | NOV 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 34 | 33 | .971 | 0 | 60:00 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
MTL | NOV 4 | -- | -- | -- | 5 | 50 | 45 | .900 | 0 | 63:03 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
DAL | NOV 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 23 | 21 | .913 | 0 | 60:00 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
Interesting stuff. I think it's been mentioned that Maurice hasn't traditionally been great at handling his goalies in past jobs. Hopefully he won't kill the golden goose here...Vegas PGT was locked before I could respond, but I wanted to address this because I anticipated this response. We all knew he would get a loss eventually.. that was never a bone of contention. But don't fool yourself into thinking this game was just an "off night" for Helle. 5 goals on 22 shots for a .773 sv% isn't a minor deviation, and I'm not willing to explain it away by throwing the entire team under the bus (despite how bad they played). This was the direct result of overplaying Helle and a great example of why playing the hot hand isn't a good long term strategy.
How about instead of rolling the dice on the next 4 starts, lets look at the last 4 starts.
The telltale sign that things went sideways was the dip to .913 against Dallas followed by the .900 against Montreal. Of course it should be expected that a goalie's sv% will fluctuate, but when those happen it is a good time to evaluate your rotation. The Jets should have looked at that Dallas game and noticed that maybe it was a good time to give Helle a rest, some extra practice time, and some healthy competition. If you have a bona fide starter you might be able to ride out a stretch like this, but Helle is LEARNING how to be a starter (which he will become, probably next season). The team treated him like the former instead of the latter and we got burnt. Helle got to Vegas making assumptions about his game and his role with the team and it showed. I mentioned in a previous post that if the Jets didn't manage Helle's starts properly, he could get complacent and have parts of his "old" game come back. The Sbisa goal last night, for me, was an example of this. And if you don't believe me, take it from Helle's own mouth (in the Post Game Interview):[TBODY] [/TBODY]
VGK NOV 10 0 1 0 5 22 17 .773 0 39:50 1 1 0 DAL NOV 6 1 0 0 1 34 33 .971 0 60:00 1 1 0 MTL NOV 4 -- -- -- 5 50 45 .900 0 63:03 1 1 1 DAL NOV 2 1 0 0 2 23 21 .913 0 60:00 1 1 0
"Now uh.. I can get back to work.. and I can realise how much harder I need to start working again.. and uh..not that I wasn't working hard, but.. now uh it's a little more motivation that I need to get back on the wheel and get back at it"
This was someone who was riding the high and didn't have their game fully in perspective. Now over those last 4 games he's averaged .889% with a 2-1-1 record. 5 out of a possible 8 points is good, but could our team have done better? I think it is probable (though not really provable) that we could have squeaked out another point against Montreal if Mason was in net, and that change alone would have improved our chances against Vegas by either getting Helle's head straight for that start or having a more solid performance by Mason. Even if we played Mason more and came out of those 4 games with the same record, it would have been healthier from a development perspective for Helle and for our goaltending overall.
So what now?
If Mason puts up solid numbers against Arizona are the hot handers going to advocate for Mason to keep playing? We also have a stretch coming up here where we play every second night until the break. What if one goalie puts up a bad game, then the other does the same two days later? Who do you go with when you're grinding out games that quickly? I cautioned around the time of the MTL game that if the Jets continue to apply the same strategy to their goalie starts over this next stretch we could see a meaningful drop in the standings.
I am not trying to make the point that Helle's game will tank if we play him too much. Rather, I'm trying to exercise caution and advocating for a more thoughtful rotation that allows us to give the team the best overall goaltending we can while also allowing Helle to cement his newfound game in preparation for a starter role. Overplaying Helle because he looks good in a few games might prevent us from maximizing our point totals and could hurt us in stretches where the schedule is more demanding.
No doubt that Helle is going to reset for his next start and play a better game (how could you not do better than .773), but the team will have to be better about managing his starts when he gets back to form.
Vegas PGT was locked before I could respond, but I wanted to address this because I anticipated this response. We all knew he would get a loss eventually.. that was never a bone of contention. But don't fool yourself into thinking this game was just an "off night" for Helle. 5 goals on 22 shots for a .773 sv% isn't a minor deviation, and I'm not willing to explain it away by throwing the entire team under the bus (despite how bad they played). This was the direct result of overplaying Helle and a great example of why playing the hot hand isn't a good long term strategy.
How about instead of rolling the dice on the next 4 starts, lets look at the last 4 starts.
The telltale sign that things went sideways was the dip to .913 against Dallas followed by the .900 against Montreal. Of course it should be expected that a goalie's sv% will fluctuate, but when those happen it is a good time to evaluate your rotation. The Jets should have looked at that Dallas game and noticed that maybe it was a good time to give Helle a rest, some extra practice time, and some healthy competition. If you have a bona fide starter you might be able to ride out a stretch like this, but Helle is LEARNING how to be a starter (which he will become, probably next season). The team treated him like the former instead of the latter and we got burnt. Helle got to Vegas making assumptions about his game and his role with the team and it showed. I mentioned in a previous post that if the Jets didn't manage Helle's starts properly, he could get complacent and have parts of his "old" game come back. The Sbisa goal last night, for me, was an example of this. And if you don't believe me, take it from Helle's own mouth (in the Post Game Interview):[TBODY] [/TBODY]
VGK NOV 10 0 1 0 5 22 17 .773 0 39:50 1 1 0 DAL NOV 6 1 0 0 1 34 33 .971 0 60:00 1 1 0 MTL NOV 4 -- -- -- 5 50 45 .900 0 63:03 1 1 1 DAL NOV 2 1 0 0 2 23 21 .913 0 60:00 1 1 0
"Now uh.. I can get back to work.. and I can realise how much harder I need to start working again.. and uh..not that I wasn't working hard, but.. now uh it's a little more motivation that I need to get back on the wheel and get back at it"
This was someone who was riding the high and didn't have their game fully in perspective. Now over those last 4 games he's averaged .889% with a 2-1-1 record. 5 out of a possible 8 points is good, but could our team have done better? I think it is probable (though not really provable) that we could have squeaked out another point against Montreal if Mason was in net, and that change alone would have improved our chances against Vegas by either getting Helle's head straight for that start or having a more solid performance by Mason. Even if we played Mason more and came out of those 4 games with the same record, it would have been healthier from a development perspective for Helle and for our goaltending overall.
So what now?
If Mason puts up solid numbers against Arizona are the hot handers going to advocate for Mason to keep playing? We also have a stretch coming up here where we play every second night until the break. What if one goalie puts up a bad game, then the other does the same two days later? Who do you go with when you're grinding out games that quickly? I cautioned around the time of the MTL game that if the Jets continue to apply the same strategy to their goalie starts over this next stretch we could see a meaningful drop in the standings.
I am not trying to make the point that Helle's game will tank if we play him too much. Rather, I'm trying to exercise caution and advocating for a more thoughtful rotation that allows us to give the team the best overall goaltending we can while also allowing Helle to cement his newfound game in preparation for a starter role. Overplaying Helle because he looks good in a few games might prevent us from maximizing our point totals and could hurt us in stretches where the schedule is more demanding.
No doubt that Helle is going to reset for his next start and play a better game (how could you not do better than .773), but the team will have to be better about managing his starts when he gets back to form.
Uhh what? I don't have time for long reply right now but giving his last four game average with that last stinker is laughable, cause his SP stunk last game, talk about cherry picking. I can cherry pick too: You also said he shouldn't start vs Dallas and he had a .971, so I must be right and you must be wrong cause one game sample you know, see how that works. Take out his one bad game and see his SP, and you can't tell me he wasn't good in three of those four games. I personally think Pmo just wanted to ride him till he lost, personally I would've played Mason vs Vegas and Helly tonight, but I'm not gonna over analyze each start. I agree that tandem style and healthy competition is way to go all year and they will, they just wanted to ride Hellys hot streak. Let's not start cherry picking one bad start with .700 SP and lumping it in with .971, .900, .913 (.900 may have been one of his better starts) and calling it a huge four game slide in numbers, we watched the games and three were quite good.
Is this serious?
First off, I used the 4 games as rhetorical device because you brought it up (remember your flippant comment about me having a point if Helle stinks up the next 4?). My point wasn't that Helle is playing poorly, but that the first Dallas game was a signal that his play was changing, and the Montreal game supported the trend. The Vegas game could have been avoided with better rotation management. But hey... ask for a 4 game sample and ye shall receive..
But what it comes down to is wins right? I get that you favour playing guys until they lose. Hot hand and all that. I simply disagree and think that over the course of a season it leads to lost points. In the case of the Jets, I feel that a better rotation could have led to a win against MTL and a much better chance at winning against Vegas.
Or maybe we could talk about the quality of the peformance outside of sv%. Sometimes things happen in a game that goalies can't control. I'm not going to try to change your mind about the MTL game... Helle made some great saves. But those kinds of performances aren't going to win games on a regular basis. And if you're going to give him a pass on that one despite not getting the win, then you have to apply the same logic to Mason's game... In which case you would have been calling for him to start earlier.
I feel like you think I'm trying to argue that Helle isn't as good as we all think. Like.... somehow my calling for a different rotation is a judgement of Helle's play. It isn't. For me, a better rotation means getting the best out of Helle, more consistent and lasting play, that'll help him transition to a starter role. It also means we get the most out of Mason. People around here got down on him so quickly that you'd think Mason was a bad luck charm for the team. I would think you of all people would be eager to help create a more balanced perspective on his early woes and how he'll actually help this team...
...but hey, that takes time.
Maybe I didn't read your post closely enough then, it was a tad late
I actually like both goalies, was huge on Helly and loved the Mason signing, I said tandem was the way to go before the season, and I still think it is. Helly just got hot and got on one of those 8-9 game streaks, and I think no one predicted that to happen, and I think Pmo just wanted to ride out his streak to get as many points stock piled in the standings. I have said on many occasions that Mason will still be a big part of this team's success going forward, I felt the Helly streak would light a fire and it was nice to see him get his first win last night, I would go back to Mason Tuesday. I think they will balance out their starts going forward but if a guy gets hot again lets say it's Mason that wins 6 in a row than it's hard not to ride that hot streak as we will need all the points in the end. Pmo can certainly mishandle goalies, and that is one of my biggest worries, how he handles starts once they start losing games and get on a losing streak, that will be where the tandem should help us out and hopefully one guy can always have a hot game so we don't have a long losing streak. Im all for tandem, but riding a hot goalie if he's hot is not a bad thing.
I think we're on the same page, like both goalies, think they both need to play. Helly threw in wrench in Mason's start with Jets by getting hot, that's not a bad thing, Mason will have his turn, lets hope they keep the competition going all year and get us to 100 points.
Uhh what? I don't have time for long reply right now but giving his last four game average with that last stinker is laughable, cause his SP stunk last game, talk about cherry picking. I can cherry pick too: You also said he shouldn't start vs Dallas and he had a .971, so I must be right and you must be wrong cause one game sample you know, see how that works. Take out his one bad game and see his SP, and you can't tell me he wasn't good in three of those four games. I personally think Pmo just wanted to ride him till he lost, personally I would've played Mason vs Vegas and Helly tonight, but I'm not gonna over analyze each start. I agree that tandem style and healthy competition is way to go all year and they will, they just wanted to ride Hellys hot streak. Let's not start cherry picking one bad start with .700 SP and lumping it in with .971, .900, .913 (.900 may have been one of his better starts) and calling it a huge four game slide in numbers, we watched the games and three were quite good.
I think you are ignoring the other 2 weak games in that 4 game set. If what PMo is doing is riding the hot hand then he is failing, because that 4 game set shows that Helle was no longer 'hot'.
If Mason had started against Mtl, Helle against Dallas then both are hot (possibly) and you can start a rotation of some sort. At that point either could have started against VGK and who knows what the outcome would have been. It wouldn't have been any worse than what happened, it might have been better.
Now what? Who starts tomorrow? The hot goalie now is Mason - .955 in his last 2 starts, 3 pts out of 4.
Which two games were bad? Helly stole us a point vs the Habs and was peppered all night long. And we are saying .913 is awful then we are looking great going forward, how times have changed lol I would've started Mason vs Vegas but he didnt, and I would start him the next game vs the Yotes. Mason will want the net back so I think he plays again and posts another good game, he is motivated to earn his starts, this competition will bring the best of them going forward. Im not saying Mason should have been sitting this long, but as I said, I think Pmo wanted to ride Helly out till he lost in regulation.
But if Mason didn't have a rough start to year and played most of the games and played them well and kept winning no one would calling for Helly to start more that's for sure.I didn't say bad, I said weak but lets not quibble over words. Yes he did steal a point, but he also gave up 4 goals. In 4 games he had 1 quality start, 2 bad starts and 1 in between. The point is that he could not still be considered to be 'on a hot streak'. By not starting Mason more often PMo was clearly trying to ride the hot hand. It was no longer hot. Apart from the 1 game against VGK I am not saying that Helle was stinking out the joint. I am saying he was not playing lights out, on fire, anymore.
This is a perfect illustration of the futility of trying to ride the hot hand. Perfect. You always have to stay with the hot hand at least 1 game too many. It is like trying to anticipate the stock market. IMO, he should have been going to Mason every 3-4 games. Instead, Mason has only started the b2b's. Helle is not ready to be ridden like that.
But if Mason didn't have a rough start to year and played most of the games and played them well and kept winning no one would calling for Helly to start more that's for sure.
But I will say that you don't have to ride a hot goalie a game too long, I would have started Mason vs Vegas and given Helly the Yotes game to keep him going.
I get it. But when a coach sees all those points pile up with one tendy he's willing to wait for that one loss and can live with it. That's what Pmo was thinking and I bet he told Mason your turn to take a run.Mason had a rough start. He is too good and too experienced to write him off because of it. I'm pretty sure Maurice knows that. He wasn't writing Mason off. He was just going with the hot hand.
You don't have to ride a hot goalie a game too long - unless what you are trying to do is ride the hot goalie. That is exactly my point. Mason should have been started sooner. But if you are trying to ride a streak how else do you know when his hot streak is over? There is no other way. 1 weak game doesn't prove anything. Does 2? Not if they were only a little weak. So try again. Rebound! "See, I knew he was still hot." Boom, .773. 1 game too many. Doesn't mean Helle is suddenly a bust. It just means that his streak has come to an end.
It is the same as, 'has the stock market peaked'? Stay in a little longer. Is that step down the beginning of the end or just a blip on the radar. Stay in. Crash! Smarter to have gotten out sooner. You miss getting the absolute peak value and you also miss the crash. You get to buy back in when the price is low and ride it up again. Of course the same thing applies in the other direction. You don't want to buy back in until it bottoms out. You will miss that cycle too. You are trying to bet on when trends will change direction. Trying to get every last win out of a hot goalie is precisely the same thing.
I get it. But when a coach sees all those points pile up with one tendy he's willing to wait for that one loss and can live with it. That's what Pmo was thinking and I bet he told Mason your turn to take a run.