Speculation: Jets General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation 15-16 (Part IV)

[sully1410]

You're witholding some pretty crucial information and at this point I think you're doing it on purpose.

Just like I said, people said this same stuff about Scheifele without using any scope of insight. In German I'd say Du siehst den Wald vor lauter Bäumen nicht. As in you can't see the forest for the trees, you're looking at minute details, leaving out important information like games played and things like the WJC performance, AHL playoffs performance, WHL playoff performance, etc. intentionally in my opinion and refusing to see the big picture.

For example:
Mark Scheifele
2010-2011 75 points
2011-2012 63 points

I guess he regressed?

We also all seemed to know before camp even started he wasn't going to beat out the established D on the team for a spot, are you actually surprised he didn't make the team? Is anyone else?

What crucial information? His point totals dropped almost in half for no real good reason.

He scored 1.23ppg in 13/14 anWJ then .80 ppg the next year. That is a BIG drop.

And maybe we weren't expecting him to the team, but he didn't even get his nine games...he just got sent to the AHL. I don't think it's out of line to have an expectation for him to have played a big league game by this point in his career. To me its an issue that he isnt out playing Mark Stuart.

And how on earth would you know that it's intentional or not? You don't know me. I'm ruthlessly pragmatic and objective to a fault and the fact that I'm even saying this right now is proof of that. I've gone rounds with several fan bases about how much better Morrissey was then their comparable prospects ie Darnell Nurse...yet here I am saying this.

AHL playoffs was two seasons ago already, and I thought after that he would take the next step and make the team. I thought it was a good jumping off point for him...but it wasn't. I'm not sure how exactly its relevant now.

It's sane thing with the WJC. Yes he was the best defenseman in the tourney, but that was against other prospects. So not full time NHLers by any means.

It's the same thing as the WHL playoffs...its against teenagers. Not full time NHLers.

It's all well and good to be good at those levels of hockey, but you need to be turning some heads at TC as well, and he just hasn't.

Not to sure what I was missing from there.

 

[sully1410]

What's your expectancy?

I'm thinking between the return for Andrej Sekera and Brent Burns.

Basically 1st + good prospect + filler NHLer, we may also throw in Postma.

He should be getting more then both of those players considering he is better then both of those players.

If it's not going to be a great return we might as well keep the guy and roll the dice in him in the summer.

 

[Hunter368]

What's your expectancy?

I'm thinking between the return for Andrej Sekera and Brent Burns.

Basically 1st + good prospect + filler NHLer, we may also throw in Postma.

Roughly equivalent to a late 1st and a decent prospect (certainly not a blue chipper). No top 6 or top 4 NHL player coming back. We might also have to retain salary.

Some people's long list of expected return for him is unrealistic imo.

 

[sully1410]

Roughly equivalent to a late 1st and a decent prospect (certainly not a blue chipper). No top 6 or top 4 NHL player coming back. We might also have to retain salary.

Some people's long list of expected return for him is unrealistic imo.

For that I'd just keep him. He'd have more value to us in a playoff push then the return nets us.

 

[KingBogo]

What's your expectancy?

I'm thinking between the return for Andrej Sekera and Brent Burns.

Basically 1st + good prospect + filler NHLer, we may also throw in Postma.

This would be a really nice return for a pending UFA. Though maybe for go the prospect and NHL filler in exchange for a young cost controlled roster player and you have a deal.

If you got a late 1st and young middle of the roster player that would be as much as could be reasonably expected IMO.

 

[Sweech]

What crucial information? His point totals dropped almost in half for no real good reason.

He scored 1.23ppg in 13/14 anWJ then .80 ppg the next year. That is a BIG drop.

And maybe we weren't expecting him to the team, but he didn't even get his nine games...he just got sent to the AHL. I don't think it's out of line to have an expectation for him to have played a big league game by this point in his career. To me its an issue that he isnt out playing Mark Stuart.

We all knew he wasn't beating out Mark Stuart. Maurice loves Stu, I don't even think a rookie Trouba could beat out Stu if the roles were reversed.

And how on earth would you know that it's intentional or not? You don't know me. I'm ruthlessly pragmatic and objective to a fault and the fact that I'm even saying this right now is proof of that. I've gone rounds with several fan bases about how much better Morrissey was then their comparable prospects ie Darnell Nurse...yet here I am saying this.

I think it's intentional because of the information you present and the information you willfully don't or willfully disregard.

AHL playoffs was two seasons ago already, and I thought after that he would take the next step and make the team. I thought it was a good jumping off point for him...but it wasn't. I'm not sure how exactly its relevant now.

It's sane thing with the WJC. Yes he was the best defenseman in the tourney, but that was against other prospects. So not full time NHLers by any means.

It's the same thing as the WHL playoffs...its against teenagers. Not full time NHLers.

This is what I mean by another intentional omission. So we can burn him at the stake because of a lack of points in the WHL, but then we'll disregard all other WHL and WJC achievements because of competition...like, what? You see what I'm pointing out that you're doing right? There's a clear lack of consistency in your reasoning here.

It's all well and good to be good at those levels of hockey, but you need to be turning some heads at TC as well, and he just hasn't.

Who exactly turned heads in training camp? We quite frankly looked like crap for the most part.

Maybe Lipon turned some heads? But then ironically he went to the AHL, just like Morrissey, so that's pretty funny considering the point you're trying to make.

Hell we're practically 4 games in and our top line players still don't look very good right now.

Not to sure what I was missing from there.

All responses in bold.

 

[Hunter368]

This would be a really nice return for a pending UFA. Though maybe for go the prospect and NHL filler in exchange for a young cost controlled roster player and you have a deal.

If you got a 1st and young middle of the roster player that would be as much as could be reasonably expected IMO.

This is how I see it as well. People need to put away their wish lists and be realistic.

 

[KingBogo]

This is how I see it as well. People need to put away their wish lists and be realistic.

I don't know if there is a bigger discrepancy on the trade board between what the average value Jets fans place on Buff and what other fan bases do. The truth is likely in the middle somewhere. I just hope we don't hold on too long and he walks as a UFA. I don't think the Jets are far enough in their evolution not to move him for assets if it came to that. But IMO worse would be to over pay for too long of term. I'm still holding out (probably unrealistically) for a surprisingly team friendly signing.

 

[sully1410]

All responses in bold.

Ok so burning him at the stake is harsh...

BUT the fact that he has a lack of production at the WHL level is worrisome. Because they are teenagers.

Him not having success at training camp is much more important then whatever he accomplished at the junior level. I don't care what he did at the junior level anymore because it has yet to translate to major league success. So no, I have no idea, nor do I see what your saying about me intentionally omitting anything.

That's not me leaving it out to win an argument. I don't care about it that much although you have yet to be clear about what it is exactly that I'm leaving out.

I'm not wrong to be a bit concerned about his development for him to not even get a nine game look after his third try? Nope. I'm not.

And really? Petan and Ehlers didn't turn heads at training camp? What are you out of your gourd?

If anyone is being biased here or short sighted its you. I'm at least willing to accept the fact that there could be issues with his development, yet instead of having a discussion with me you relied on trying to what? Attack my credibility or something?

The fact that you are trying to insinuate that I am lying or leaving out facts is incredibly insulting considering that you don't know a ****ing thing about me and are seemingly unwilling to elaborate on your accusation.

He has failed to even get a second look at three training camps now...its right in front of your face. I'm just the one saying it.

Edit: JC Lipon wasn't a first round draft pick...so he is exactly where I would expect him to be.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

O
I'm not wrong to be a bit concerned about his development for him to not even get a nine game look after his third try? Nope. I'm not.

"9 game looks" does not exist for 20 year olds. Since they can go to AHL no one keeps 20 year olds at NHL for looks since they can just call them up later. And the year of ELC is used up no matter what.

Also defensemen rarely get those looks. It's just not done that often, D only stick if they are going to be regulars in general. And that is fairly rare as well.

 

[sully1410]

"9 game looks" does not exist for 20 year olds. Since they can go to AHL no one keeps 20 year olds at NHL for looks since they can just call them up later. And the year of ELC is used up no matter what.

Also defensemen rarely get those looks. It's just not done that often, D only stick if they are going to be regulars in general. And that is fairly rare as well.

Interesting. I didnt know that happened with Dmen. I had just assumed that it would work the same way as forwards.

Not that it changes that he had three unimpressive camps though.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Interesting. I didnt know that happened with Dmen. I had just assumed that it would work the same way as forwards.

Not that it changes that he had three unimpressive camps though.

It works the same way as with forwards. It just not used (for whatever reason you want to insert) as much. Probably because of the less number of spots and/or more defensive responsibility needed.

 

[Hunter368]

I don't know if there is a bigger discrepancy on the trade board between what the average value Jets fans place on Buff and what other fan bases do. The truth is likely in the middle somewhere. I just hope we don't hold on too long and he walks as a UFA. I don't think the Jets are far enough in their evolution not to move him for assets if it came to that. But IMO worse would be to over pay for too long of term. I'm still holding out (probably unrealistically) for a surprisingly team friendly signing.

Agreed on all points.

 

[Sweech]

Ok so burning him at the stake is harsh...

BUT the fact that he has a lack of production at the WHL level is worrisome. Because they are teenagers.

Him not having success at training camp is much more important then whatever he accomplished at the junior level. I don't care what he did at the junior level anymore because it has yet to translate to major league success. So no, I have no idea, nor do I see what your saying about me intentionally omitting anything.

That's not me leaving it out to win an argument. I don't care about it that much although you have yet to be clear about what it is exactly that I'm leaving out.

I'm not wrong to be a bit concerned about his development for him to not even get a nine game look after his third try? Nope. I'm not.

And really? Petan and Ehlers didn't turn heads at training camp? What are you out of your gourd?

If anyone is being biased here or short sighted its you. I'm at least willing to accept the fact that there could be issues with his development, yet instead of having a discussion with me you relied on trying to what? Attack my credibility or something?

The fact that you are trying to insinuate that I am lying or leaving out facts is incredibly insulting considering that you don't know a ****ing thing about me and are seemingly unwilling to elaborate on your accusation.

He has failed to even get a second look at three training camps now...its right in front of your face. I'm just the one saying it.

Edit: JC Lipon wasn't a first round draft pick...so he is exactly where I would expect him to be.

BUT the fact that he has a lack of production at the WHL level is worrisome.

Him not having success at training camp is much more important then whatever he accomplished at the junior level. I don't care what he did at the junior level anymore

You seem to care enough to point out the negatives and ignore the positives, that seems slightly odd. Didn't you notice that when you wrote those sentences back to back? So which is it, are we going to argue counting his junior play or not?

If not we have a handful of AHL games to go by which have been fairly decent performances so far.

I'm not insinuating you're lying I'm pointing out the very clear fact that you suddenly care when you can point out a negative and then you suddenly don't care when there's positives. It's suddenly all good to point out the negatives of his WHL stat sheet, but lets disregard all other junior accomplishments. It's totally disingenuous. I don't need to "know you" to point this out. It's right there in your writing. The quoted post even had it back to back.

He has failed to even get a second look at three training camps now...its right in front of your face. I'm just the one saying it.

Care to point out all the under 20 year old non-top 10 defensemen who have gotten all these second looks past training camp? I'll wait.

This is my point though, you've seem to set some kind of bar of standards that's totally unrealistic for a 20 year old defensemen. The reason you see yourelf as the only one pointing this out is because I think everyone realizes what a rarity that is in today's NHL. To expect it is to be unrealistic.

 

[sully1410]

You seem to care enough to point out the negatives and ignore the positives, that seems slightly odd. Didn't you notice that when you wrote those sentences back to back? So which is it, are we going to argue counting his junior play or not?

If not we have a handful of AHL games to go by which have been fairly decent performances so far.

I'm not insinuating you're lying I'm pointing out the very clear fact that you suddenly care when you can point out a negative and then you suddenly don't care when there's positives. It's suddenly all good to point out the negatives of his WHL stat sheet, but lets disregard all other junior accomplishments. It's totally disingenuous. I don't need to "know you" to point this out. It's right there in your writing. The quoted post even had it back to back.



Care to point out all the under 20 year old non-top 10 defensemen who have gotten all these second looks past training camp? I'll wait.

This is my point though, you've seem to set some kind of bar of standards that's totally unrealistic for a 20 year old defensemen. The reason you see yourelf as the only one pointing this out is because I think everyone realizes what a rarity that is in today's NHL. To expect it is to be unrealistic.

Jet pointed it at as well.

And as Holden illuminated me in a non condescending fashion moments ago, second looks don't happen for defensemen very much. Something that I was unaware of.

A lack of production at the junior level is by far more telling then a lot of points at the junior level. If he's dominating the league that is a different story, but it really didn't look like it.

And once again it doesnt change that practically everyone on this board thought he had a disappointing training camp...and just so you know that happened after his games in the AHL. Which I agree, showed a lot of promise. I just don't think he has moved forward from there.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I think you need to watch games to get a better understanding of what Josh Morrissey is then just looking at numbers.

Watch the world juniors last year. It is a pretty good indicator of what we may have in the future.

He isn't going to be a number 1 guy but few guys ever really get there

 

[surixon]

Jet pointed it at as well.

And as Holden illuminated me in a non condescending fashion moments ago, second looks don't happen for defensemen very much. Something that I was unaware of.

A lack of production at the junior level is by far more telling then a lot of points at the junior level. If he's dominating the league that is a different story, but it really didn't look like it.

And once again it doesnt change that practically everyone on this board thought he had a disappointing training camp...and just so you know that happened after his games in the AHL. Which I agree, showed a lot of promise. I just don't think he has moved forward from there.

Garrett made a good point of explaining his lack of production on Kelowna was due to him getting less ice time especially less PP time due to the depth of the team. Even still he was right around a ppg for them. He also was never healthy for them either. He suffered an injury at the WJC that he played through in the beginning, then suffered that high ankle sprain that caused him to miss over a month. He clearly wasn't 100% in the playoffs but still performed very well.

I also think you put way too much stock in preseason play. How a player plays in TC is a poor indicator on how a player looks in the regular season. Case in point Petan who looked great in preseason but has so far been underwhelming in the NHL.

 

[CaptainChef]

Lots of talk on the Oiler board yesterday about needing a guy like Buff. Many are willing to give up their first to get him before some other team does. Biggest concern is that he wouldn't sign, or that someone like Boston beats them to the punch lol

 

[larmex99]

Lots of talk on the Oiler board yesterday about needing a guy like Buff. Many are willing to give up their first to get him before some other team does. Biggest concern is that he wouldn't sign, or that someone like Boston beats them to the punch lol

Bigger concern should be that he wouldn't go there.......why would he?

 

[SCP Guy]

Bigger concern should be that he wouldn't go there.......why would he?

Yup doubt they are not on his list of no go teams

 

[jetsforever]

Lots of talk on the Oiler board yesterday about needing a guy like Buff. Many are willing to give up their first to get him before some other team does. Biggest concern is that he wouldn't sign, or that someone like Boston beats them to the punch lol

I don't want to trade him there (and it almost certainly won't happen) but the prospect of an Edmonton first is exciting Matthews perhaps?

 

[Gm0ney]

Bigger concern should be that he wouldn't go there.......why would he?

Play out 6 months in Edmonton and then sign wherever you want? But that team is such a tire fire that you could undermine your value. However, you could come in at just the right moment, spark a turnaround and then write your own ticket on July 1.

But Buff's pretty close with the group here - I personally don't think he'd waive for Edmonton either...

 

[Koonta]

I don't want to trade him there (and it almost certainly won't happen) but the prospect of an Edmonton first is exciting Matthews perhaps?

And then flip that first (Matthews) to the Coyotes for OEL. Sounds good to me

 

[Huffer]

And then flip that first (Matthews) to the Coyotes for OEL. Sounds good to me

I like OEL, but I'd rather have the 3 years of Matthews on an ELC, and then a second (and maybe third) contract, over 3 years of OEL before UFA.

But we're WAY into the hypothetical now so it's not likely worth worrying about!

 

[Aavco Cup]

And then flip that first (Matthews) to the Coyotes for OEL. Sounds good to me

Why would we trade Mathews? Kid has 9 goals in the Swiss league already.