Confirmed with Link: Jets/Buffalo Blockbuster! part II (Kane and Bogo)

Gm0ney

Unicorns salient
Oct 12, 2011
14,968
14,557
Winnipeg
My evidence is that he got great value in the trade with Buffalo. You evidence that there were ever 29 teams interested and offering a better return before he was injured is what, exactly? "Common sense economics"? You think the NHL is a purely rational market?

The main point is that the trade (which was a very good one) is being compared to imaginary ones based on presumed market conditions, with literally no evidence that a better trade was available earlier. Adding the suggestion that he was "lucky" to get a good trade return when he did is fascinating.

Well, if your position is that Kane+Bogo+Kasdorf for Myers, Stafford, STL 2015 1st, Armia and Lemieux was the maximum return Chevy could've received for those players at any point from 2011 to pre-incident-2015, then that's fine. I will speculate no more.

But is your position really "Chevy was a very shrewd GM and man of action who got rid of Evander Kane freeing the team and city from him before his antics really got out of hand"?

I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to overlook the "process" here and just concentrate on results...the more I think about the Kane situation, the more concerned I become about Chevy. He let the Kane situation fester for 3 years and was forced by the players to finally take action. He got lucky, and this organization dodged a bullet.
 

Gm0ney

Unicorns salient
Oct 12, 2011
14,968
14,557
Winnipeg
Imagine how amazing the GM and owner have to be to try to carve out a successful NHL franchise in this wasteland.

Do you mean financially successful? georhgep's list enumerates the many business advantages here. Add in some generous public subsidies, their own arena, and a hockey mad citizenry and *poof* - anyone could turn a profit!

Or do you mean on-ice success? Because...uh, the jury's still out on that. :sarcasm:
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,528
34,926
Do you mean financially successful? georhgep's list enumerates the many business advantages here. Add in some generous public subsidies, their own arena, and a hockey mad citizenry and *poof* - anyone could turn a profit!

Or do you mean on-ice success? Because...uh, the jury's still out on that. :sarcasm:

I think they'll have both types of success. It'll be quite an accomplishment in this lousy market... at least that's what all the tall foreheads in Toronto and other spectacular markets tell us.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,528
34,926
Well, if your position is that Kane+Bogo+Kasdorf for Myers, Stafford, STL 2015 1st, Armia and Lemieux was the maximum return Chevy could've received for those players at any point from 2011 to pre-incident-2015, then that's fine. I will speculate no more.

But is your position really "Chevy was a very shrewd GM and man of action who got rid of Evander Kane freeing the team and city from him before his antics really got out of hand"?

I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to overlook the "process" here and just concentrate on results...the more I think about the Kane situation, the more concerned I become about Chevy. He let the Kane situation fester for 3 years and was forced by the players to finally take action. He got lucky, and this organization dodged a bullet.

Go back and read my posts. It's the best way to figure out what I've said, and what I've not said. To save you some time, I never said that Chevy got the maximum return, because I don't know. I said he got a very good return, which is how I assess that trade.

I never said anything close to your second paragraph, but it seems to be a whopper of a straw man that you might want to pull out from time to time for rhetorical purposes.

I'm fascinated with your continued assertion that Chevy got "lucky" when you apparently have no information about how long Chevy had been talking to Buffalo or other teams, or what trades he had on the table up to that point. As I've said before, if being a good GM is about being more lucky than other GMs then I suppose we should be pleased at how lucky Chevy has been.
 
Last edited:

nobody important

the pessimist returns
Jul 12, 2015
6,426
1,719
a quiet suburb
Why Winnipeg and Manitoba?



Strong and diversified economy

•Steady growth thanks to the diversity of the economy
•Built on 10 key industry sectors which helps to mitigate swings in the economy and provides consistency, predictability and control for businesses


Strategic Location

•Geographic centre of North America
•One-hour from Western Canada’s busiest US border crossing
•Within a 24-hour drive to a population of 100 million
•Home to Canada’s official inland port, CentrePort Canada, a 20,000 acre (8,000 hectares) of land for industrial development that includes a foreign trade zone.
•Port of Churchill, Canada’s only arctic seaport


Transportation and Services

•Tri-modal transportation hub (truck, rail and air)
•Headquarters of five of the 20 largest trucking firms in North America
•Three Class 1 rail carriers (CN, CP, BNSF)
•Award winning international airport with 24/7 operations and worldwide freight forwarding


Energy Advantage

•98% of the energy is hydro-electric
•Abundance of clean and renewable energy
•Lowest published rates in North America


Low Cost of Business

•Lowest overall cost of business in Western Canada, Midwestern US, and Pacific US,
•5.2% lower than the average cost of running a business in the US
•Effective government program for businesses
•Government covered health care
•The lowest overall tax rate in the G7 (33%)
•Lower corporate taxes than the US
•Canada/Manitoba’s combined R&D tax incentive program, one of the most generous in the industrialized world, up to 55% of investment

Stable and Productive Workforce



•Highly skilled, loyal and productive
•Growing population
•Best-in-class Provincial Nominee Program for immigration, bringing skilled and specialised workers


A Place to Grow

•Low cost of living
•Most affordable homes in the country
•Most hours of sunshine in Canada
•Hundreds of thousands of lakes
•Highest per capita cottage ownership in the country

I'm not trying to bum anyone out...you guys were aware of these things, right?!

I think anyone that has been to this site is aware of them.
http://www.wtcwinnipeg.com/trade-information/why-winnipeg-and-manitoba/

Just say no to plagiarism.
 

Mortimer Snerd

You kids get off my lawn!
Sponsor
Jun 10, 2014
58,937
31,447
You have to be patient and wait for the "perfect storm", and then recognize it when it arrives.

I'm having a hard time understanding how the Kane/Bogo trade could be seen as a "dumb luck". I guess it's part of the larger narrative that Chevy's mistakes are idiotic, and his good moves are "dumb luck". Fascinating.

There is no such narrative Whileee but Chevy has made some dumb moves and he has had some dumb luck. That isn't a narrative. It is simple fact.
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

Registered User
May 21, 2011
6,381
9,585
Winnipeg MB.
There is no such narrative Whileee but Chevy has made some dumb moves and he has had some dumb luck. That isn't a narrative. It is simple fact.

Pretty much every GM has though. There is no evidence this was dumb luck though, the result was a good deal for a player who has only lost value since the trade. Why people are going on and on about this deal is silly, we got a good deal, case closed, move on...It's been over a year.

There are plenty of things to complain about Chevy for (Pavs, Stu, Thorbs, Peluso), but how he handled this situation is not one.

(Not trying to point the finger at you, just this conversation in general).
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,528
34,926
There is no such narrative Whileee but Chevy has made some dumb moves and he has had some dumb luck. That isn't a narrative. It is simple fact.

Show evidence that the return on the Kane/Bogo trade was dumb luck. That's an assertion in this thread.
 

Mortimer Snerd

You kids get off my lawn!
Sponsor
Jun 10, 2014
58,937
31,447
Pretty much every GM has though. There is no evidence this was dumb luck though, the result was a good deal for a player who has only lost value since the trade. Why people are going on and on about this deal is silly, we got a good deal, case closed, move on...It's been over a year.

There are plenty of things to complain about Chevy for (Pavs, Stu, Thorbs, Peluso), but how he handled this situation is not one.

(Not trying to point the finger at you, just this conversation in general).

Luck plays a part in everyone's life. One way or another. In this case Chevy was lucky that a suitable trade partner was available when things blew up. If Buffalo hadn't been there though he could have waited until the next season. It didn't have to be done that quickly with Kane out for the season.

Was Chevy's handling of Kane perfect? No. But it was good enough in the end. It looks like turning out pretty well and Kane just keeps getting worse.
 

garret9

AKA#VitoCorrelationi
Mar 31, 2012
21,740
4,385
Vancouver
www.hockey-graphs.com
Agree. Notice that I said I'm hoping that the Jets will learn and improve.

I just wanted to take the chance to jab at TO. I was so afraid when they started to get smart. Luckily Lou is taking over.

I feel sorry for Cam, though.

*Note: Cam Charron (full disclosure: a close friend of mine) has not told me anything about the analytical department losing power in TO, but I have heard whispers through other channels that I would normally would ignore but some of the decisions this summer and then the loss of Wes Clark who has been Dubas' right hand man since SOO makes me think the whispers are real. The loss of Clark was the needle on the haystack for me in thinking Dubas isn't really running much.
 

MrBoJangelz71

Registered User
Jan 14, 2014
4,995
6,216
I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to overlook the "process" here and just concentrate on results...the more I think about the Kane situation, the more concerned I become about Chevy. He let the Kane situation fester for 3 years and was forced by the players to finally take action. He got lucky, and this organization dodged a bullet.

I am completely surprised anyone gives any thought to a process that neither you nor I have the slightest clue what it detailed.

Result is the only measurement in a trade. and Chevy killed it. That is all that matters, that is all this trade will ever me measured on.

[mod]

But keep telling us how blindly lucky Chevy is, we will just enjoy the results of his consistent luckiness.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

KingBogo

Admitted Homer
Nov 29, 2011
32,711
43,441
Winnipeg
I am completely surprised anyone gives any thought to a process that neither you nor I have the slightest clue what it detailed.

Result is the only measurement in a trade. and Chevy killed it. That is all that matters, that is all this trade will ever me measured on.

[mod]

But keep telling us how blindly lucky Chevy is, we will just enjoy the results of his consistent luckiness.

I'm also feeling pretty fortunate we have the luckiest damn GM in the business. I just hope he is smart enough to hold the cup the right side up after he bumbles his way to a championship.
 

MrBoJangelz71

Registered User
Jan 14, 2014
4,995
6,216
I'm also feeling pretty fortunate we have the luckiest damn GM in the business. I just hope he is smart enough to hold the cup the right side up after he bumbles his way to a championship.

:laugh:

Chevy has been successful, throughout his life, of avoiding walking under ladders, never broken a mirror and the hardest one of all, avoiding black cats from walking across his path. Chevy has a very special rabbits foot, along with a four leaf clover, and of course he eats nothing but lucky charms for breaky.

Some should feel "lucky" to have a GM as "lucky" as our GM.
 

DEANYOUNGBLOOD17

Registered User
May 10, 2011
3,520
1,533
1)
- Armia
- Lemieux.......... Vs ........ Kane
- Roslovic


2)
Myers.......... >\=.........Bogo

3)
Stafford ...... Free TD pick-up for 2015 playoff run

If all 3 pieces of the first part of this trade contribute to the Jets success for the next 5 plus years this trade is a home run for Chevy and the Jets. All three are projecting well. My highest hopes for elite is with Roslovic.
 

buggs

screenshot
Sponsor
Jun 25, 2012
8,885
11,558
somewhere flat
1)
- Armia
- Lemieux.......... Vs ........ Kane
- Roslovic


2)
Myers.......... >\=.........Bogo

3)
Stafford ...... Free TD pick-up for 2015 playoff run

If all 3 pieces of the first part of this trade contribute to the Jets success for the next 5 plus years this trade is a home run for Chevy and the Jets. All three are projecting well. My highest hopes for elite is with Roslovic.

Very good way of looking at things.

Stafford to me remains more valuable than just the free TD pick-up though. Frolik walked away and we had what is arguably a high end middle-six forward available to replace him. I like Frolik's game better than Stafford's but as the Rolling Stones said, you can't always get what you want. So we got Stafford for a couple of years to bridge a gap on a bit of an overpay but in year 1 of that deal he provided decent scoring, certainly more than we ever saw out of Jokinen or Setoguchi.

Roslovic ceiling hopes for me are Little's eventual replacement as a 2C.

But I also like Lemieux as possibly a middle six, agitator/PP/PK specialist (2nd PP, dirty goals in front of the net). He may end up bringing back some of the toughness we lost by moving Bogo/Kane out. That's the big loss to me from those two going away is the edge they played with. You had to have your head up around them. Lemieux should bring back an element of that.

Armia is gravy. Bottom nine somewhere probably, middle six ceiling but no real room for him almost.

Whether Chevy stumbled into it or lucked into it or whatever, I like the looks of the end result. We still have to wait and see if the ceilings are achieved, but not having Kane's issues hovering over the team is still a win.
 

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
Sponsor
Mar 10, 2010
35,554
33,894
I just wanted to take the chance to jab at TO. I was so afraid when they started to get smart. Luckily Lou is taking over.

I feel sorry for Cam, though.

*Note: Cam Charron (full disclosure: a close friend of mine) has not told me anything about the analytical department losing power in TO, but I have heard whispers through other channels that I would normally would ignore but some of the decisions this summer and then the loss of Wes Clark who has been Dubas' right hand man since SOO makes me think the whispers are real. The loss of Clark was the needle on the haystack for me in thinking Dubas isn't really running much.

Speculation:

Shanny builds a nice little group of guys with Hunter and Dubas and they construct a very forward thinking organization with a top notch analytics department and life is scary for #hateleafnation. Then they open up the vault and hire Babbs and pay him a GM Killer salary (Hard to fire him). At that point things are looking "ok" but everyone knows they don't have a real GM yet and committees may or may not work but there is a problem, Babbs is "the" dominant personality and they need an alpha who can keep him in his place since he isn't going anywhere (no small task). Brendan picks up the phone and brings in Lou the king Alphas but the problem is "IF" Shanny thought he was going to shape things in his new forward thinking fashion he was kidding himself because Lou is Lou and he is going to be the real boss. Shanny can hire or fire who he wants (almost like an owner) but when it comes to hockey ops he hired a guy who is a two hands on the steering wheel type that will do things his way until he is fired.


Shanny and his team did the right thing by tearing it down and starting from scratch and they have a very good looking young core emerging so I am not going to sell them short but this is Lou's show for now.
 
Last edited:

Mortimer Snerd

You kids get off my lawn!
Sponsor
Jun 10, 2014
58,937
31,447
Simple fact?:laugh:

Whileee hit the nail on the head, and you confirmed it unequivocally with your reply.

So you are saying that Chevy has never made a dumb move and that he has never benefitted from luck?

Saying that any single move was dumb or that any single incident was lucky is not a 'narrative'. No one is saying "that Chevy's mistakes are idiotic, and his good moves are "dumb luck".

Signing Brian Strait was dumb. Winning the draft lottery was luck. That is a long way from Whileee's narrative. That does not mean that Chevy's mistakes are ALL idiotic and that his good moves are ALL dumb luck.
 

Le Golie

...
Jul 4, 2002
8,542
468
Using this trade/thread to soap box your opinion on Chevldayoff is tiresome and pointless.

Summer is so frustrating around here.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,528
34,926
Luck plays a part in everyone's life. One way or another. In this case Chevy was lucky that a suitable trade partner was available when things blew up. If Buffalo hadn't been there though he could have waited until the next season. It didn't have to be done that quickly with Kane out for the season.

Was Chevy's handling of Kane perfect? No. But it was good enough in the end. It looks like turning out pretty well and Kane just keeps getting worse.

My issue is that there is a tendency among some of Chevy's detractors to ascribe his good moves to "luck", but his bad moves are all on him. That has been in evidence in this thread regarding the Kane trade. In contrast, I don't think I've seen the same standard applied to other GMs. It seems that as the Jets assemble more and more good pieces he's being characterized as being "lucky" more frequently. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this.
 

winnipegger

Registered User
Dec 17, 2013
8,525
7,562
If Chevy had traded Kane in 2012 or 2013 he would have been burned at the stake for giving up on a young guy who had just scored 30 goals and knocked out Matt Cooke. Kane was a big deal back then, back when we didn't know for sure that he lacked certain skills. There's a reason Kane has a giant ego; it's that he got a big fat contract after doing well in his early seasons. Everyone thought he was going to be a star. Revisionist reasoning is an excellent way to prove a non-existing point. Chevy SHOULDN'T have moved Kane when he requested a trade back then. Given the return he got for him in 2014, I find it kind of insane that people would be complaining about it.
 

sully1410

#EggosForEleven
Dec 28, 2011
15,546
3
Calgary, Alta.
So you are saying that Chevy has never made a dumb move and that he has never benefitted from luck?

Saying that any single move was dumb or that any single incident was lucky is not a 'narrative'. No one is saying "that Chevy's mistakes are idiotic, and his good moves are "dumb luck".

Signing Brian Strait was dumb. Winning the draft lottery was luck. That is a long way from Whileee's narrative. That does not mean that Chevy's mistakes are ALL idiotic and that his good moves are ALL dumb luck.

Winning the draft lottery is miles away from lucking into a trade.
 

Ad

Ad

Ad