Post-Game Talk: Jets 4 - Sharks 3

[Buffdog]

It drives me nuts when people blame the d for that play. Pionk did exactly what the system dictates, and Connor, though originally supporting him, decided to stay in instead of anticipating a lost puck battle.

I re-watched.

Blown read by Pionk. D can only activate with strong F support up high. Sharks had numbers going the other way, Pionk needs to release there

 

[Huffer]

Tough to call that one - looks like there were a few options the guys could take but things happen fast.
When you don't have possession and two guys are breaking out (and behind Pionk), you have to think it's a case of being over aggressive on the forecheck by the dman (Pionk) with Kyle already pressuring the puck carrier.
If we didn't have 2 guys breaking out up the middle, this play is fine - but who do you blame when your D decides to pinch when you have the breakout already in play.
There's a few ways to look at it but IMO, the D shouldn't be pinching when there is a 3 man breakout in play.

Agree, things happen fast.

But I think Pionk was already pretty established down low and along the boards while Connor was still pretty high near the blue line. Connor IMO, makes the decision to pinch when the Sharks have the puck and Pionk is by the boards.

Moment when puck is turned over to Sharks. Connor is high.

Connor now down low to attack 96, leaving 20 and 23 breaking out. Pionk caught up with 64.

Pionks pinch was much earlier. He had gone to the net to see if there was a rebound from Connors earlier shot. He was already near the point engaged with 64. I think a point could be made that he was on the wrong side of 64, but I don't think its a case of Pionk being aggressive on the forecheck while Connor was pressuring the puck carrier. IMO it's the opposite. Connor is being too aggressive on the forecheck without realizing that while Pionk might be on the wrong side of 64, Connor has now left 20 and 23 all alone to sprint up the ice.

I re-watched.

Blown read by Pionk. D can only activate with strong F support up high. Sharks had numbers going the other way, Pionk needs to release there

IMO Pionk did have F support up high. Connor was there when Pionk went to the net to try and see if there was a rebound.

 

[KingBogo]

Even "bad" teams are good. At the end of the day, it's not like the 32nd place team in the league is the U18 A1 Selkirk Fishermen

There are roughly 750 players in the NHL. Even the "bad" ones are good. The difference between the worst player in the NHL and the best player isn't as wide as you'd think, relatively speaking (generational talent notwithstanding). These guys are the best hockey players on the planet

I've skated with plenty of NHLers who had very mediocre careers and they've all been very good

Roughly speaking the worst team in the league wins approximately 1/3 of their games and the best team wins approximately 2/3 of their games. Everyone else is somewhere in between.

 

[LowLefty]

Agree, things happen fast.

But I think Pionk was already pretty established down low and along the boards while Connor was still pretty high near the blue line. Connor IMO, makes the decision to pinch when the Sharks have the puck and Pionk is by the boards.

View attachment 947615
Moment when puck is turned over to Sharks. Connor is high.

View attachment 947617

Connor now down low to attack 96, leaving 20 and 23 breaking out. Pionk caught up with 64.

Pionks pinch was much earlier. He had gone to the net to see if there was a rebound from Connors earlier shot. He was already near the point engaged with 64. I think a point could be made that he was on the wrong side of 64, but I don't think its a case of Pionk being aggressive on the forecheck while Connor was pressuring the puck carrier. IMO it's the opposite. Connor is being too aggressive on the forecheck without realizing that while Pionk might be on the wrong side of 64, Connor has now left 20 and 23 all alone to sprint up the ice.


IMO Pionk did have F support up high. Connor was there when Pionk went to the net to try and see if there was a rebound.

Thanks for the detail - I didn't see the play live and was going by what was shown in the earlier post.
What was 55 doing? Like I said, I didn't see the play but it looks like he moved to the other side of the net on the turnover - which seems odd.
Anyway, a very aggressive forecheck (which is the new Jets) and when they are all making split second "go / no go" decisions, I can see how this would happen from time to time.

Roughly speaking the worst team in the league wins approximately 1/3 of their games and the best team wins approximately 2/3 of their games. Everyone else is somewhere in between.

Good point -
Probably why I spend less time looking at the standing when we match up.
I'd prefer to watch how they are playing in any given game - regardless of opponent.

 

[Inanna]

What were you expecting from the moms?9

I was expecting them to all look over the age of 40. At least two of them are obviously under 40.

I didn't realize that in a few instances, when the player's mom couldn't make the trip, a sister has been invited along.

 

[Huffer]

Thanks for the detail - I didn't see the play live and was going by what was shown in the earlier post.
What was 55 doing? Like I said, I didn't see the play but it looks like he moved to the other side of the net on the turnover - which seems odd.
Anyway, a very aggressive forecheck (which is the new Jets) and when they are all making split second "go / no go" decisions, I can see how this would happen from time to time.


I'd prefer to watch how they are playing in any given game - regardless of opponent.

Not 100% sure on Scheifele. Pionk had even turned the puck back over and put it back down to Vilardi. Scheif went to the net and Vilardi fumbled it and turned it over. But it looks like Scheifele took the long way back around the net.

If you're able to access that NHL.com link in the earlier post, it has both the top down visulizations as well as real life replays for the goals. It's really slick.

 

[gojetsgo]

Yeah I'm not sure either.

We are 14-3 vs non-playoff teams. Not sure that's 100% accurate but that's what Sean Reynolds said on Kenny and Renny last night. That would leave us 9-6-1 against playoff teams I believe.

I'm not sure we need to be extremely worried, but I could see why it would be cause for some concern. Not sure how similar that is to other teams either.

somebody on reddit posted a chart 2 days ago of best teams vs best record and best teams vs worst records, we ranked 3rd against best teams and 4th against the worst teams

 

[voyageur]

Not 100% sure on Scheifele. Pionk had even turned the puck back over and put it back down to Vilardi. Scheif went to the net and Vilardi fumbled it and turned it over. But it looks like Scheifele took the long way back around the net.

If you're able to access that NHL.com link in the earlier post, it has both the top down visulizations as well as real life replays for the goals. It's really slick.

It's hard to turn off those offensive instincts. I think this is why Scheifele's line fares better with Morrissey-De Melo than Pionk in general.

The Jets 1st goal was a beauty, did anyone see Scheifele shoot out of that play like a rocket, so that he was in great position to anticipate Vilardi's chip and pick that led to an easy 2 on 1 goal?

 

[Huffer]

It's hard to turn off those offensive instincts. I think this is why Scheifele's line fares better with Morrissey-De Melo than Pionk in general.

The Jets 1st goal was a beauty, did anyone see Scheifele shoot out of that play like a rocket, so that he was in great position to anticipate Vilardi's chip and pick that led to an easy 2 on 1 goal?

And to be fair, if Vilardi is able to corral the puck and slide it quickly to Scheifele, he likely has a scoring chance. It happened really fast.

 

[johnnyonthspot]

I was expecting them to all look over the age of 40. At least two of them are obviously under 40.

I didn't realize that in a few instances, when the player's mom couldn't make the trip, a sister has been invited along.

I understand and some do look young, which show's how young some of the Jets are!
They did say it was a "moms and mentors trip". I cannot remember who said this perhaps Sawyer who I tend to ignore hahah

 

[Buffdog]

IMO Pionk did have F support up high. Connor was there when Pionk went to the net to try and see if there was a rebound.

Pionk had re-establisjed himself at the point (on his offside) and Connor released back down low (arrow)

Support "up high" means someone in the circle who can backfill his spot. Nobody there = no go. Up to the D to read and establish that

All 3 Fs are down low here, PLUS SJS had strong possessions

He should have peeled out

 

[Weezeric]

Pionk had re-establisjed himself at the point (on his offside) and Connor released back down low (arrow)

Support "up high" means someone in the circle who can backfill his spot. Nobody there = no go. Up to the D to read and establish that

All 3 Fs are down low here, PLUS SJS had strong possessions

He should have peeled out

View attachment 947637

He was trying but he was interfered with.

 

[Huffer]

Pionk had re-establisjed himself at the point (on his offside) and Connor released back down low (arrow)

Support "up high" means someone in the circle who can backfill his spot. Nobody there = no go. Up to the D to read and establish that

All 3 Fs are down low here, PLUS SJS had strong possessions

He should have peeled out

View attachment 947637

Sorry, we're just going to have to see this play oppositely (which is all cool). I do think Pionk could have moved quicker to get back between the blue and red lines and be on the right side of 64. But watching the replay, he does start moving back as soon as Vilardi turns over the puck. Pionk is not "pinching" anymore. He did that about 5 seconds earlier and was getting back.

Connor is F3 when Vilardi turns the puck over. If you rewind your image a second or two, Connor is on the defensive side of the eventual goal scorer. IMO, Connor needs to recognize that the 2 Sharks leaving the zone are his and Fleury's. 64 provides a perfect pick on Pionk, but it's Connor's unsupported pinch that causes the issue, not the pinch that Pionk made 5 seconds earlier to go to the net for a rebound, which he made while Connor was in fact in the position to cover.

I think you could make the case that Pionk could have turned and skated full tilt back at this point, but I think you could also make the case that he sees Connor on the defensive side of the other forwards and he is trying to stop the easy breakout on the wall. Connor now skates by two streaking forwards to take the puck carrier deep. Connor makes that choice instead of the less risky and more defensive play to back up and stay on the streaking winger.

IMO Pionk makes a good read to go to the net to see if there's a rebound (while there is F coverage for him), makes a good turnover and gets the puck back deep for Vilardi. The worse thing I can say about him on this goal is maybe not skating full retreat earlier, but I think for Pionk about a second earlier he knew that Connor was back.

Connor makes a conscious choice to go 100% for broke in a tied hockey game in the 3rd period. Even if Pionk was on the defensive side of 64, it still would have been a 2 on 1 with 20 and 23 on Fleury because Connor came in too deep as the F3.


As an aside, isn't this more interesting than talking about Kovacevic?

 

[Crocket]

The 2nd line started the season really quiet but picked it up, then Ehlers and that vicious road trip made them a little unproductive. They looked the most dangerous when Lambert was the C.

I think we need to put Nino on the 2nd line, maybe put Perfetti at C when Ehlers is back. Names on the 3rd wing, or Perfetti depending.

That might activate both lines a little with a different look.

We need to move on from Stanley. I'd rather have Heinola working off the rust and making better passes. We need to play Coghlan, he's a solid player

 

[Buffdog]

Sorry, we're just going to have to see this play oppositely (which is all cool). I do think Pionk could have moved quicker to get back between the blue and red lines and be on the right side of 64. But watching the replay, he does start moving back as soon as Vilardi turns over the puck. Pionk is not "pinching" anymore. He did that about 5 seconds earlier and was getting back.

Connor is F3 when Vilardi turns the puck over. If you rewind your image a second or two, Connor is on the defensive side of the eventual goal scorer. IMO, Connor needs to recognize that the 2 Sharks leaving the zone are his and Fleury's. 64 provides a perfect pick on Pionk, but it's Connor's unsupported pinch that causes the issue, not the pinch that Pionk made 5 seconds earlier to go to the net for a rebound, which he made while Connor was in fact in the position to cover.

View attachment 947643

I think you could make the case that Pionk could have turned and skated full tilt back at this point, but I think you could also make the case that he sees Connor on the defensive side of the other forwards and he is trying to stop the easy breakout on the wall. Connor now skates by two streaking forwards to take the puck carrier deep. Connor makes that choice instead of the less risky and more defensive play to back up and stay on the streaking winger.

IMO Pionk makes a good read to go to the net to see if there's a rebound (while there is F coverage for him), makes a good turnover and gets the puck back deep for Vilardi. The worse thing I can say about him on this goal is maybe not skating full retreat earlier, but I think for Pionk about a second earlier he knew that Connor was back.

Connor makes a conscious choice to go 100% for broke in a tied hockey game in the 3rd period. Even if Pionk was on the defensive side of 64, it still would have been a 2 on 1 with 20 and 23 on Fleury because Connor came in too deep as the F3.


As an aside, isn't this more interesting than talking about Kovacevic?

I guess I'd have to know exactly what Arniel has them doing in that scenario. It's also likely (and probable) that there were more than one breakdown in the play

The other goofy thing about Pionk on that play is that he's heading down the wall to pressure the puck, but Connor is already pressuring him

And yes, I'll take talking about this any day over decisions management made years ago where we don't even have the full rationale for why they made them

 

[Huffer]

I guess I'd have to know exactly what Arniel has them doing in that scenario. It's also likely (and probable) that there were more than one breakdown in the play

The other goofy thing about Pionk on that play is that he's heading down the wall to pressure the puck, but Connor is already pressuring him

And yes, I'll take talking about this any day over decisions management made years ago where we don't even have the full rationale for why they made them

True, we have to know what the plan is supposed to be for sure. And the speed of the turnover by Vilardi, and Pionk possibly being on the left wall in that instance might be throwing stuff off as well.

I do have to comment on your second paragraph here because it's kind of the whole point of my posts lol. IMO, Pionk is not coming "down" (adding quotes for emphasis) to pressure the puck while Connor is already pressuring the puck carrier. Pionk has been moving backwards (although maybe not fast enough because 64 was still behind him) ever since turning the puck over to Vilardi.

 

[raideralex99]

I guess I'd have to know exactly what Arniel has them doing in that scenario. It's also likely (and probable) that there were more than one breakdown in the play

The other goofy thing about Pionk on that play is that he's heading down the wall to pressure the puck, but Connor is already pressuring him

And yes, I'll take talking about this any day over decisions management made years ago where we don't even have the full rationale for why they made them

Lots of different opinions at who's at fault but you are right it's Arniel who knows who made the error.
The Jets were buzzing around the net and this is what usually happens ... miss at one end and the puck goes the other puck and scores.
I don't have a problem the D pinching just not in the 3rd period of a tied game.

 

[Gm0ney]

Fleury certainly was aware of what was about to transpire...

 

[Buffdog]

True, we have to know what the plan is supposed to be for sure. And the speed of the turnover by Vilardi, and Pionk possibly being on the left wall in that instance might be throwing stuff off as well.

I do have to comment on your second paragraph here because it's kind of the whole point of my posts lol. IMO, Pionk is not coming "down" (adding quotes for emphasis) to pressure the puck while Connor is already pressuring the puck carrier. Pionk has been moving backwards (although maybe not fast enough because 64 was still behind him) ever since turning the puck over to Vilardi.

Went and watched again and you're right, pionk wasn't pinching (apologies also to @Jet who also pointed it out and I disagreed)

Let's just all agree that Helle should have stopped it and it's his fault

 

[Jet]

I re-watched.

Blown read by Pionk. D can only activate with strong F support up high. Sharks had numbers going the other way, Pionk needs to release there

I disagree.

In order for the defense to get the jump needed to effectively pinch they can't be waiting and looking around.

It was a system breakdown, caused by Connor.

 

[Adam da bomb]

The 2nd line started the season really quiet but picked it up, then Ehlers and that vicious road trip made them a little unproductive. They looked the most dangerous when Lambert was the C.

I think we need to put Nino on the 2nd line, maybe put Perfetti at C when Ehlers is back. Names on the 3rd wing, or Perfetti depending.

That might activate both lines a little with a different look.

We need to move on from Stanley. I'd rather have Heinola working off the rust and making better passes. We need to play Coghlan, he's a solid player

Didn’t they just waive coghlan?

I disagree.

In order for the defense to get the jump needed to effectively pinch they can't be waiting and looking around.

It was a system breakdown, caused by Connor.

Yep, Connor wasn’t great on it, but, gets a pass scoring two goals so he can take it. As long as he makes the right decision next time or scores another 2 goals.

 

[Buffdog]

I disagree.

In order for the defense to get the jump needed to effectively pinch they can't be waiting and looking around.

It was a system breakdown, caused by Connor.

I won't make excuses as to why I was wrong about the play, BUT (lol)

I only watched it on the NHL app and the short highlight started with pionk already down the wall so I just assumed he pinched

When I watched the longer version that showed the whole play unfold, I realized that it probably was indeed Connor's fault. He was the high support there, then moved down low when there were already 2 Fs and Pionk in the vicinity of the puck

 

[Crocket]

Didn’t they just waive coghlan?

That's interesting if they did. I know Chevy loves extra guys. Maybe a move is incoming.

Stanley is such a liability, it's bizarre how he is still here