Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 19

[azcanuck]

I totally agree. KK now has 199 games under the belt, is playing his regular turn every night, has been on the PP for the majority of those games and have played many good wingers. At some point he will have to show more than 3rd line C capability to earn more than that. He's still young but I'm really starting to question his hockey IQ. He's been chosing the wrong options more often than not since the first half of his rookie season and I find it worrisome.

I think his hockey I.Q. is above average. It's a time and space thing. In the NHL you have to buy time and space with speed or strength. He has little of either right now. He will get stronger , and then you will see better results.

 

[aresknights]

KK has been one of the forwards who has stood out in good way. He elevates his game in the playoffs. Still only 20.

I'd say his is mid to lower pack in overall effectiveness/influence in POs based on roles assigned and impact on games( PK/PP/ 5 0n 5) But I love his potential n know he is young, just saying other Fs have done more to influence PO games. It's not a knock, I'm a supporter and glad he is getting this experience and he has contributed.
More influential Fs o outcomes of games in general, JMO.
Byron
Danualt
Perry
Armia
CC
Suzuki
Maybes/Even/Close/KK slightly better?..... Anderson, Tofolli, Staal, Leks

All Fs have helped out at times, and it's been needed. I like a team that needs all hands pitching in at different times.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I think his hockey I.Q. is above average. It's a time and space thing. In the NHL you have to buy time and space with speed or strength. He has little of either right now. He will get stronger , and then you will see better results.

Compared to Suzuki for instance it is not even close.
You can see Suzuki delay play to open lanes and be more poised and controlled.

With KK it always look difficult. He is already becoming predictable at 20 years old. I have been very dissapointed this year, I expected him to reach another level.

 

[azcanuck]

Compared to Suzuki for instance it is not even close.
You can see Suzuki delay play to open lanes and be more poised and controlled.

With KK it always look difficult. He is already becoming predictable at 20 years old. I have been very dissapointed this year, I expected him to reach another level.

That's fair. He might be 20 but it's his third year in the league. But I think he has that lanky frame that matures slower. Small guys have their neuro wiring intact early while guys like KK it's a little slower. He looks like he's playing on banana peels half the time. I do expect more in the next two years, he will start to gain man strength.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...once Kotkaniemi puts on some muscle and works on his balance & skating, I think he's gonna be a good #2C behind Suzuki...already doesn't shy away from the physical element and you can see his above average IQ out there...glad Columbus didn't want him in a PLD trade...kid's gonna be a gamer, imo...

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

People comparing him to Suzuki seem to be leaving out how good Suzuki is. I mean did you see him last night? Matched up against Point? Arguably had the best game of any skater on either side.

KK showed plenty last night. Making plays all over the place. I don't know if he quite has elite offense in him but this idea that he HAS to crash and bang to be effective is silly. He can do both power and finesse. And he'll be better at both as he gets older.

People still talk about this kid like he's Lars Eller or something. And Eller was a fine player. Big Eller fan despite his warts. KK's shown WAY more than Larry did at the same point in their careers. Hell he's been better than Pacioretty. And I had these same arguments about Patches. When Eller filled out you can see how his puck protection got a lot better and I don't even think Larry was as gangly and awkward as KK is. Patches is a very good comparable. Patches was completely different player when he filled out. So imagine what that'll do for KK who like I said has been better than Patches was at the same age.

20 years old is nothing. It is NOT an excuse. Period. He's only played two seasons worth of games despite it being his 3rd year. That's nothing. And if you want to say so what to those two things: fine. But what can't be ignored is how he still has a kid's body. HE HAS NOT FILLED OUT YET. All three of these things taken together and you have to understand how most of these criticisms mean VERY little right now. Why this is so hard to understand is mind-bending and soul deadening.

He hasn't even reached his fricking FLOOR yet lol. There is next to zero percent chance he doesn't get any better as he fills out. Do I think he can ever be better than Suzuki? Never say never but I'd say unlikely as Suzuki has been utterly terrific and he can still be better too. But I would not be shocked in the least for KK to make it a lot closer than most think.

 

[montreal]

I’ve found him mostly disappointing this run tbh I was hoping for more. Still have hopes for the kid, but it’s going to take a bit to get there.

you were hoping for more then the 2nd most U-21 goals in the playoffs over the last 10-20 years?

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

you were hoping for more then the 2nd most U-21 goals in the playoffs over the last 10-20 years?

At least 2 OT wins so far on him. People were carrying on about the zero playmaking and that's been surfacing of late. He's producing, he's playing well while still being really young and still super gangly.

I dont know what people were watching last night but he was terrific. Super heartened by his play since the LV series. He could easily be slowing down but he's only been getting better. This thread should just be renamed 'Lessons in Gaslighting'.

 

[Skip Bayless]

People only watch him play when he gets on the board or makes a nice offensive play. This thread shows it.

Fails to make a pass all game, fumbles the puck all game. Oh look one good pass in about 4 games, he's a good playmaker.

loll

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

People only watch him play when he gets on the board or makes a nice offensive play. This thread shows it.

Fails to make a pass all game, fumbles the puck all game. Oh look one good pass in about 4 games, he's a good playmaker.

loll

...ice cold hot take...Kotkaniemi shows talent in his play all the time when he's out there, he just hasn't put it all together yet...you speak of being objective while watching him, yet you're doing what you shyte on others for doing; just picking apart errors he makes while giving no credit for his solid play, not even mentioning when he elevates it...he's shown a ton of growth so far and hasn't even filled out his frame yet...I wonder if we'll see you in a couple years when the crow is being served??...cuz if I'm wrong and he fails, I'll be the first to admit I was too high on him...I don't think I have to worry about it, however, so bookmark this post...

 

[sandviper]

I'm a Finnish Canadian. My parents are both from Finland. We dont believe in fluffing things up. We are direct and dont believe in excuses.

Is it fair to be harsh with the analysis of KK? Perhaps not , but most of it's to counter all the fluff about him. How fantastic he is when most of the time he's not producing and he's just slipping and sliding out there.
He's 18 they yell!!
He's 19 they yell!
He's 20 they yell!!
Gets a little redundant.
Now what do I think the end product will be? I've stated it many times on here. When he gains strength it will buy him more time and space. And that's everything in the NHL. His skating will never be great, but the strength is the key. Because I do think he has a very good hockey brain. Next couple of years will be key.

Fair enough. My culture is also very direct and to the point but perhaps being pushed so hard myself as a youth, I sympathize with kids today. I coach just for the love of it as my son stopped playing a couple years ago, and it breaks my heart when I see teenagers be so hard on themselves due to outside pressures.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ve dealt with lazy and entitled players also and yes, I do not enjoy working with them.

I am pretty sure, in fact, I’m positive KK pushes himself and is harder on himself than even his worse critics. I mean, he’s young but he’s still an adult. Don’t coddle him but they, the team, has to do everything they can to have him succeed. Most cup winning teams have a solid 1-2 punch up the middle and not only for his on sake but for the sake of the team, they have to help him be that guy.

I do believe he wants it. I also believe he’ll put the work in for it. Either way, while he has to do his part, so does the team.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

you were hoping for more then the 2nd most U-21 goals in the playoffs over the last 10-20 years?

Yeah sounds good, he’s been mostly invisible though.

 

[OnceWasNot]

He's just not that good. If he was with another team we'd be projecting him to top out as a middle 6 C based on his play so far, but he's a Hab so instead we get delusional optimism. 15 goal, 40 point guy with average skating, average hockey intelligence, good shot and decent passing is what's reasonable to expect. Honestly not bad for a ~10th overall pick where he was projected to go in 2018.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

He's just not that good. If he was with another team we'd be projecting him to top out as a middle 6 C based on his play so far, but he's a Hab so instead we get delusional optimism. 15 goal, 40 point guy with average skating, average hockey intelligence, good shot and decent passing is what's reasonable to expect. Honestly not bad for a ~10th overall pick where he was projected to go in 2018.

he practically did that when he was 18 lol. okay i give it up. i went through the same stuff with Pacioretty.

At the same age Pacioretty was starting in his 2nd season. Go look at the stats. Wasn't until the middle of Patches 3rd pro season he started getting it. He was 22.

If you look at both and what they've done at the same age and you take Pacioretty, you'd be absolutely blind. While KK's playing at C mind you. And they have/had very similar builds. Same problems with the falling all the time.

But hey give up on the kid who's going to be turning 21 in a couple days who's centering a line in the Cup playoffs where he was directly responsible for two huge OT winners and tied with Crosby and Gretzky for goals under 21.

 

[CHfan1]

he practically did that when he was 18 lol. okay i give it up. i went through the same stuff with Pacioretty.

At the same age Pacioretty was starting in his 2nd season. Go look at the stats. Wasn't until the middle of Patches 3rd pro season he started getting it. He was 22.

If you look at both and what they've done at the same age and you take Pacioretty, you'd be absolutely blind. While KK's playing at C mind you. And they have/had very similar builds. Same problems with the falling all the time.

But hey give up on the kid who's going to be turning 21 in a couple days who's centering a line in the Cup playoffs where he was directly responsible for two huge OT winners and tied with Crosby and Gretzky for goals under 21.

I don’t get it either. Danault, when he was in his D+5 season at 22 years old, played 51 games and put up 4 goals and 10 points. A few seasons after that when he was 25 he played 81 games and put up 12 goals and 53 points. Do posters really think KK can’t put up those kinds of numbers or better in his peak years?

I know he’s in his third season but he’s still one of the youngest players in the NHL and was the youngest centre to play in the NHL playoffs this year. He still contributed and got the Habs to where they are at now being apart of key goals. He’s scored the opening goal of games 3 times and been apart of 2 OT goals. I don’t know how anyone can look at his play now and project he’ll be a 40 point third line centre when he’s in his mid twenties after he fills out.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Yeah sounds good, he’s been mostly invisible though.

Can say the same for many veterans in the playoff , what's your point?

 

[malton]

Compared to Suzuki for instance it is not even close.
You can see Suzuki delay play to open lanes and be more poised and controlled.

With KK it always look difficult. He is already becoming predictable at 20 years old. I have been very dissapointed this year, I expected him to reach another level.

There are plenty of instances where KK will gain the zone and delay/draw a defender so he can slip a pass through.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I don’t get it either. Danault, when he was in his D+5 season at 22 years old, played 51 games and put up 4 goals and 10 points. A few seasons after that when he was 25 he played 81 games and put up 12 goals and 53 points. Do posters really think KK can’t put up those kinds of numbers or better in his peak years?

I know he’s in his third season but he’s still one of the youngest players in the NHL and was the youngest centre to play in the NHL playoffs this year. He still contributed and got the Habs to where they are at now being apart of key goals. He’s scored the opening goal of games 3 times and been apart of 2 OT goals. I don’t know how anyone can look at his play now and project he’ll be a 40 point third line centre when he’s in his mid twenties after he fills out.

Great perspective. Glad you pointed out Danault too who I was also going to mention. Like come on, guys. lol.

His playoffs have been a bit of a mixed bag. He's still getting results and he's only been getting better as they've gone on which is huge.

Anyone who thinks this guy doesn't project way better than Eller or Danault are absolutely clueless. Neither could do anything close to what he's done at the same age nor did they.

If people had a really detailed take on why he can't reach his potential, that would be fine. But the majority of what I see don't even think he HAS that potential. And that's why these takes really can't be taken seriously but there is so many of them you can't NOT rebut them lol.

 

[canucklover123]

Great perspective. Glad you pointed out Danault too who I was also going to mention. Like come on, guys. lol.

His playoffs have been a bit of a mixed bag. He's still getting results and he's only been getting better as they've gone on which is huge.

Anyone who thinks this guy doesn't project way better than Eller or Danault are absolutely clueless. Neither could do anything close to what he's done at the same age nor did they.

If people had a really detailed take on why he can't reach his potential, that would be fine. But the majority of what I see don't even think he HAS that potential. And that's why these takes really can't be taken seriously but there is so many of them you can't NOT rebut them lol.

I think the fustration stems from you don't want a third overall pick to be in a converaation of projecting better than Eller or Danault.

And in fairness, it was advertised the moment he was drafted, he is raw. So we'll see.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I think the fustration stems from you don't want a third overall pick to be in a converaation of projecting better than Eller or Danault.

And in fairness, it was advertised the moment he was drafted, he is raw. So we'll see.

But the thing is that's what people are projecting him as and when you see what they've done at the same ages, there's ZERO contest. None. It's not even close.

 

[OnceWasNot]

okay i give it up..

Good idea. In a few years I'll be vindicated and you'll realise how mistaken you once were about a highly overrated prospect.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

People comparing him to Suzuki seem to be leaving out how good Suzuki is. I mean did you see him last night? Matched up against Point? Arguably had the best game of any skater on either side.

KK showed plenty last night. Making plays all over the place. I don't know if he quite has elite offense in him but this idea that he HAS to crash and bang to be effective is silly. He can do both power and finesse. And he'll be better at both as he gets older.

People still talk about this kid like he's Lars Eller or something. And Eller was a fine player. Big Eller fan despite his warts. KK's shown WAY more than Larry did at the same point in their careers.

Hell, Larry wasn't even in the NHL in his D+3. It was in his D+4 that he got to the big show and had half the points KK had as an 18 years old in his D+1. The Eller comparisons are just silly.

He does compare better in terms of age and development with Pacioretty and you're right, KK has already done better at the same age.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Hell, Larry wasn't even in the NHL in his D+3. It was in his D+4 that he got to the big show and had half the points KK had as an 18 years old in his D+1. The Eller comparisons are just silly.

He does compare better in terms of age and development with Pacioretty and you're right, KK has already done better at the same age.

Yeah people seem to forget Patches. People were fairly stoked on his rookie half season but then the season after people were writing him off as a bottom 6er because he kind of regressed. Falling a lot, couldn't finish, etc. No one thought he was going to be one of the better goal scorers of the last 10 years. Literally no one.

To be a bit fair KK's progression has been a bit wonky. It really felt like he should've busted out this past regular season. Still I think there's plenty of valid reasons why it didn't happen.

But again, if you take Patches at the same age as KK is now and say who is the better player? It's a no brainer. People don't really get how much better he can still be.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Good idea. In a few years I'll be vindicated and you'll realise how mistaken you once were about a highly overrated prospect.

oh you're on. Any day of the week.

Overrated? Half the people on here think he's going to be Eller lol.

 

[flying v 604]

you were hoping for more then the 2nd most U-21 goals in the playoffs over the last 10-20 years?

That is such a flawed stat. How many 20 year-olds get the chances he has gotten? Usually the high-end 20 somethings play for teams that don't make the playoffs if he played for a team with decent centre depth he wouldn't even be playing. He has 5 goals in 18 games, hardly impressive.