Player Discussion Jeremy Swayman -VI President Cam Speaks: Monty, Donny, & Charlie too!

[Gee Wally]

Mod edit: @smithformeragent

As this situation continues to drag on:

Please keep the conversation pertinent to the topic and avoid making it personal.

Debate about the management of the salary cap and the performance of the general manager fits into the context of the conversation, but we’ll avoid dividing fans into camps like “pro-player” and “team apologist”.

Thanks!

Continue if you must. No flaming!

Click to read more...

 

[SwayHeyKid]

Swayman is clearly more talented & has greater potential than Vladar, I'm not disputing that at all. My point is that Swayman's resume at present is too thin to just hand him 8+ million a season. No RFA goalie with his stats has ever been signed to an elite goaltender level contract AFAIK. I don't think the Bruins want to set that precedent any more than Swayman wants to wreck the market for future goaltenders.

To your #3- but it's fine for Gross & Swayman to twist things as they surely did to squeeze more money out of the Bruins? Arbitration process sucks for both sides, nobody leaves happy or even content with the results.

They made Pastrnak the highest paid RW ever and gave McAvoy more money than Makar so they aren’t afraid to set markets and overpay. Swayman should be no different. Sweeney traded Ullmark because he has zero qualms that Sway can be a 55-60 game starter, now pay him like the 25 year old franchise cornerstone goalie he is. Skimp somewhere else

You harping on the Vladar comp is just eye rolling.

Clearly Boston made their case well enough to get the award down the middle.

We all know that in negotiations they were not offering 2m. Gross decided to take his client to arbitration and maybe gained a few hundred K (if anything, we have no idea) out of it.

Is your stance that anytime agents select arbitration the team should just fold? I'm genuinely confused if you think that is the right long term strategy for the Bruins or any team.



So you think 8x9.5 is a fair market value deal?

They didn’t make their case. They knew it gets split so they low balled him on their number because they couldn’t manage the cap. Not sure which is more of a trash move the 2 mil in arbitration or the 6.5 starting number in these talks

I’m still not sure why it’s ok to pay McAvoy more than Makar but you can’t pay Swayman more than Sorokin or Saros

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Someone here said Kochetkov was a good comp, and the highest that dude ever had for SV% was last year with .911, Swayman's career average is .919. Those guys are not the same.

It wasn't me.

 

[Gee Wally]

 

[caz16]

View attachment 910325

My sentiments exactly.

 

[LSCII]

It wasn't me.

No but your pointing to Swayman's save percentage being less than the guy who won the Vezina is equally as disingenuous and pretty shady on it's own.

And that's the issue with this guy. People have made up their minds that he's only worth X, and guess what? He's not signing for what you seem to think he should. Why? Because he's better than what you've compared him to and no amount of qualifying and couching his stats to suit your belief is going to change that.

He's a far better goalie than Korpisalo or Bussi. If the season hinges on those two being the tandem, this team is going nowhere.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Swayman is clearly more talented & has greater potential than Vladar, I'm not disputing that at all. My point is that Swayman's resume at present is too thin to just hand him 8+ million a season. No RFA goalie with his stats has ever been signed to an elite goaltender level contract AFAIK. I don't think the Bruins want to set that precedent any more than Swayman wants to wreck the market for future goaltenders.

To your #3- but it's fine for Gross & Swayman to twist things as they surely did to squeeze more money out of the Bruins? Arbitration process sucks for both sides, nobody leaves happy or even content with the results.

You missed most of my point. I'm not saying either side should or shouldn't try to get the best deal they can.

I'm saying fans who say "Swayman should've known...." are letting Sweeney off the hook. I'm saying, yeah he should've. But also ... Sweeney should've have known using a bad comp wasn't going to sit well with a cornerstone player. Since we assume the arbitrator split the difference, that means the B's offer was a number in the 2's last year. Had they offered a number that was in the 3's, Swayman's contract would've been 3.8 or 3.9 instead of 3.4 Maybe there's better feelings between the 2. But for 500k you may have saved you pissed off a core player.

Also about your bolded:

What stats do you mean? GAA? Sv%??? I'm assuming you mean games played, because people are harping on that.

Sorokin got an 8.25m contract while being an RFA with 146 regular season NHL games and 13 more playoff games.
Swayman has played 132 NHL games and 20 playoffs games.

Do you mean to tell me that you need to see a whopping 7 more games to say that Swayman is in the same league as Sorokin? Because frankly that's just silly.

EDIT: Oh and Sorokin's deal started in a year with a lower cap than this year.

 

[Fenian24]

Good thing I was told I had nothing to worry about with Swayman signing. Otherwise I would be concerned right now.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I hate this argument. What's the point of paying a goalie anything at this point? What would the criteria for a worthy goalie ever be on this team if we can't judge their play WHILE PLAYING ON THIS TEAM?

You could actually make a case for save percentage being the single most important statistic when grading goalies. Wins and losses have so much to do with the offense, goals against could just mean they are getting straight up peppered for 45 shots a game and letting in 3.

Not all shots are equal.

Good thing I was told I had nothing to worry about with Swayman signing. Otherwise I would be concerned right now.

Me too.

 

[LSCII]

Not all shots are equal.



Me too.

This is the hair splitting that I find to be disingenuous. The anti Sway folks are making it their job to discredit anything positive he's done. It's a laughable take.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

No but your pointing to Swayman's save percentage being less than the guy who won the Vezina is equally as disingenuous and pretty shady on it's own.

And that's the issue with this guy. People have made up their minds that he's only worth X, and guess what? He's not signing for what you seem to think he should. Why? Because he's better than what you've compared him to and no amount of qualifying and couching his stats to suit your belief is going to change that.

He's a far better goalie than Korpisalo or Bussi. If the season hinges on those two being the tandem, this team is going nowhere.

The point was that both Ullmark and Swayman benefited from playing behind the Bruins D. But Ullmark's SP was way higher than Swayman's when he won the Vezina. Last season they were virtually the same.

All I've stated was that I don't think Swayman is worth $9 mil or more.

And I completely agree that he's a better goalie than Korpisalo or Bussi.

 

[wintersej]

They made Pastrnak the highest paid RW ever and gave McAvoy more money than Makar so they aren’t afraid to set markets and overpay. Swayman should be no different. Sweeney traded Ullmark because he has zero qualms that Sway can be a 55-60 game starter, now pay him like the 25 year old franchise cornerstone goalie he is. Skimp somewhere else


They didn’t make their case. They knew it gets split so they low balled him on their number because they couldn’t manage the cap. Not sure which is more of a trash move the 2 mil in arbitration or the 6.5 starting number in these talks

I’m still not sure why it’s ok to pay McAvoy more than Makar but you can’t pay Swayman more than Sorokin or Saros

McAvoy was coming off a bridge and was buying way more UFA years vs Makar. Pastrnak was a pending UFA with Richard Trophy who signed a contract as cap percentage totally inline with stars of that ilk.

You say “pay him like a 25 year old elite starting goalie” and people point to Helly or Saros or Demko or these other guys that signed at 5 or 6 as 25 year old elite starting goalies those don’t count for some reason. Those were obviously on shorter term deals. If Swayman wants 8, it’s just a dicier negotiation because none of the other young elite goalies not named Vasi have Signed a deal like that in 10 years. They all came in at short term and then cashed in later. If you want to argue that 25 year old Swayman is 25 year old Vasi, I’ll get my popcorn.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This is the hair splitting that I find to be disingenuous. The anti Sway folks are making it their job to discredit anything positive he's done. It's a laughable take.

I'm not anti-Sway. The post you replied to wasn't even about Swayman.

And I would appreciate it if you would stop referring to my posts as disingenuous.

 

[wintersej]

You missed most of my point. I'm not saying either side should or shouldn't try to get the best deal they can.

I'm saying fans who say "Swayman should've known...." are letting Sweeney off the hook. I'm saying, yeah he should've. But also ... Sweeney should've have known using a bad comp wasn't going to sit well with a cornerstone player. Since we assume the arbitrator split the difference, that means the B's offer was a number in the 2's last year. Had they offered a number that was in the 3's, Swayman's contract would've been 3.8 or 3.9 instead of 3.4 Maybe there's better feelings between the 2. But for 500k you may have saved you pissed off a core player.

Also about your bolded:

What stats do you mean? GAA? Sv%??? I'm assuming you mean games played, because people are harping on that.

Sorokin got an 8.25m contract while being an RFA with 146 regular season NHL games and 13 more playoff games.
Swayman has played 132 NHL games and 20 playoffs games.

Do you mean to tell me that you need to see a whopping 7 more games to say that Swayman is in the same league as Sorokin? Because frankly that's just silly.

EDIT: Oh and Sorokin's deal started in a year with a lower cap than this year.

Sorokin was a pending UFA, had finished 2nd in the Vezina that year, and had started upwards of 60 games in a season. Is RFA vs UFA years the item of disagreement here?

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

I'm not anti-Sway. The post you replied to wasn't even about Swayman.

And I would appreciate it if you would stop referring to my posts as disingenuous.

Come on @LSCII be nice. No one likes someone disagreeing

 

[KrejciMVP]

They made Pastrnak the highest paid RW ever and gave McAvoy more money than Makar so they aren’t afraid to set markets and overpay. Swayman should be no different. Sweeney traded Ullmark because he has zero qualms that Sway can be a 55-60 game starter, now pay him like the 25 year old franchise cornerstone goalie he is. Skimp somewhere else


They didn’t make their case. They knew it gets split so they low balled him on their number because they couldn’t manage the cap. Not sure which is more of a trash move the 2 mil in arbitration or the 6.5 starting number in these talks

I’m still not sure why it’s ok to pay McAvoy more than Makar but you can’t pay Swayman more than Sorokin or Saros

Pasta is a 50-60 goal scorer and those are hard to find. If the Bruins D can win a Vezina for Ullmark they are don't need to cave to Swaymans contract ask if they feel it's too high

 

[LSCII]

I'm not anti-Sway. The post you replied to wasn't even about Swayman.

And I would appreciate it if you would stop referring to my posts as disingenuous.

You literally used the Vezina winner's SV% to put down Swayman's numbers as not being very impressive, but you left out the part where Ullmark won the award for being the BEST GOALIE IN THE f***ING LEAGUE THAT YEAR. LOL. Not just his team, but for the entire league.

That's pretty shady my man. I like your takes most of the time, but the way you couched and dismissed this one was sketchy.

 

[Gee Wally]

You literally used the Vezina winner's SV% to put down Swayman's numbers as not being very impressive, but you left out the part where Ullmark won the award for being the BEST GOALIE IN THE f***ING LEAGUE THAT YEAR. LOL. Not just his team, but for the entire league.

That's pretty shady my man. I like your takes most of the time, but the way you couched and dismissed this one was sketchy.

 

[Scotto74]

They tried to trade him at the deadline. They already knew Ullmark was never playing for them next year. Vezina winner doesn't mean shit anymore. He was no longer in the future plans of this organization.

Easy to say now. but look back and see what happened from the trade deadline on March 8th until the end of the season.

swayman played 8 of the games
date - SV%
3/11 - .810
3/16 - .828
3/21 - .897
3/26 - .857
3/30 - .900
4/4 - .966
4/9 - .846
4/15 - .958

so based on this his SV% was under .901 for 6 out of his last 8 games going into the post season. you have the Vezina winner sitting there played 9 games down the stretch

date - SV%
3/9 - .974
3/14 - .947
3/19 - .935
3/23 - .897
3/27 - .933
4/2 - 1.00
4/6 - .933
4/13. - .875
4/16 - .895

Ullmarks last 9 games he played 3 games under .901 and 7 over .933

are you giving up on the season last year going into the playoffs and say well Ullmark we are going to try and trade over the summer. screw it this year lets just let Swayman play even though he had been not good down the stretch. you do that you run the risk of killing Swayman's confidence and career by letting him tank down the stretch into the playoffs. then you have no choice but to play Ullmark in the leafs series and beyond.

even though Ullmark was by FAR the better down the stretch they still went with Swayman and used the reason he had a great regular season against the leafs. If that was the truth then they would have started Ullmark against Florida because he had a great regular season against them.

they gave Swayman every chance to grab the stater down the stretch he didn't step up for the opportunity.

The guy at that point played parts of three season and didn't take the starter job. 2020 doesn't count he played 10 games in the bubble which was nothing like a normal NHL season on so many levels.

they are thinking about the future but at the same time always trying to win now which they should. last year win now was not playing Swayman down the stretch to carry the load.

 

[goldenblack]

Good thing I was told I had nothing to worry about with Swayman signing. Otherwise I would be concerned right now.

There is still nothing to be concerned about, frankly.

Holding out with no leverage or real rights is the sort of smooth brained stuff you'd expect from one of the Habs maybe. This will be over soon.

 

[4ORRBRUIN]

Easy to say now. but look back and see what happened from the trade deadline on March 8th until the end of the season.

swayman played 8 of the games
date - SV%
3/11 - .810
3/16 - .828
3/21 - .897
3/26 - .857
3/30 - .900
4/4 - .966
4/9 - .846
4/15 - .958

so based on this his SV% was under .901 for 6 out of his last 8 games going into the post season. you have the Vezina winner sitting there played 9 games down the stretch

date - SV%
3/9 - .974
3/14 - .947
3/19 - .935
3/23 - .897
3/27 - .933
4/2 - 1.00
4/6 - .933
4/13. - .875
4/16 - .895

Ullmarks last 9 games he played 3 games under .901 and 7 over .933

are you giving up on the season last year going into the playoffs and say well Ullmark we are going to try and trade over the summer. screw it this year lets just let Swayman play even though he had been not good down the stretch. you do that you run the risk of killing Swayman's confidence and career by letting him tank down the stretch into the playoffs. then you have no choice but to play Ullmark in the leafs series and beyond.

even though Ullmark was by FAR the better down the stretch they still went with Swayman and used the reason he had a great regular season against the leafs. If that was the truth then they would have started Ullmark against Florida because he had a great regular season against them.

they gave Swayman every chance to grab the stater down the stretch he didn't step up for the opportunity.

The guy at that point played parts of three season and didn't take the starter job. 2020 doesn't count he played 10 games in the bubble which was nothing like a normal NHL season on so many levels.

they are thinking about the future but at the same time always trying to win now which they should. last year win now was not playing Swayman down the stretch to carry the load.

Good post!

Swayman will be traded for 2 dimes and a penny before the B's bend to his demands IF he is asking for 8-10m for 8 years.

Get ready for the Korpo show, good or bad.

 

[Over the volcano]

If he doesn't sign by December 1 does his RFA status hold for another year?

 

[TD Charlie]

Not all shots are equal.



Me too.

True. It’s also possible to move the goal posts for just About any player if you really wanna take them down a peg.

Swayman is damn good and the stats don’t show anything less.

 

[smithformeragent]

View attachment 910325

Wait until the 21st or 22nd thread.

 

[Pia8988]

Easy to say now. but look back and see what happened from the trade deadline on March 8th until the end of the season.

swayman played 8 of the games
date - SV%
3/11 - .810
3/16 - .828
3/21 - .897
3/26 - .857
3/30 - .900
4/4 - .966
4/9 - .846
4/15 - .958

so based on this his SV% was under .901 for 6 out of his last 8 games going into the post season. you have the Vezina winner sitting there played 9 games down the stretch

date - SV%
3/9 - .974
3/14 - .947
3/19 - .935
3/23 - .897
3/27 - .933
4/2 - 1.00
4/6 - .933
4/13. - .875
4/16 - .895

Ullmarks last 9 games he played 3 games under .901 and 7 over .933

are you giving up on the season last year going into the playoffs and say well Ullmark we are going to try and trade over the summer. screw it this year lets just let Swayman play even though he had been not good down the stretch. you do that you run the risk of killing Swayman's confidence and career by letting him tank down the stretch into the playoffs. then you have no choice but to play Ullmark in the leafs series and beyond.

even though Ullmark was by FAR the better down the stretch they still went with Swayman and used the reason he had a great regular season against the leafs. If that was the truth then they would have started Ullmark against Florida because he had a great regular season against them.

they gave Swayman every chance to grab the stater down the stretch he didn't step up for the opportunity.

The guy at that point played parts of three season and didn't take the starter job. 2020 doesn't count he played 10 games in the bubble which was nothing like a normal NHL season on so many levels.

they are thinking about the future but at the same time always trying to win now which they should. last year win now was not playing Swayman down the stretch to carry the load.

All this is absolutely false. They said all years they were going to rotate that goalies every game regardless of results and planned to do that in the playoffs as well until Ullmark lost and they realized how stupid that was.

The fact is they knew Ullmark was never playing a game for them and kept up the rotation. If he was so good why didn't he start more games? Why didn't he start game 1?

They were comfortably in the playoffs. You commit to Swayman as the future. You try to deal Ullmark. So why are you not using this time to see if Swayman can play 2 more game and increase his work?

Incompetence is why.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

Wait until the 21st or 22nd thread.

Thread count…has no meaning. Here in the seventh circle of hell.