Proposal: Jeff Petry to the Leafs

[sansabri]

Yeah I wasn't sure. It's possible some of your posts here are replying to things I can't see.

So you don't think you have 1/2C covered. Because it seems like you are not in favour of adding a 27 year old franchise-level centre, (those couple of weeks don't matter that much, but since you "corrected" the other guy) and that we don't have a couple bottom-6D in the system? (Supporting role was the term)

that accurate?

I don't know what we have yet. What I do know is that Tavares will be 30 before any of those young dmen make an impact. Support in this case meant top 4 - which I correctly laughed at.

 

[loyaltotheend]

The problem is the Leafs doesn’t need supporting role d-man, they need top pairing d-man. After next season, they will have Rielly and Dermott as their top D’s. You’re missing a #2 and #3 here in your contention yeara and that’s if Dermott and Lil both develop as expected.

Of course we’re banking on them being our 1C and 2C for the future. That’s what they were drafting for and Poehling’s progression shows that he is most the man to run our 2nd line in the future while Kotkaniemi’s progression over the last year is quite frankly amazing and he just turned 18. We’ll know more what we have in him during the rookie tournament and training camp but the way I see him playing right now, he’s going to be real good at camp.

I’m not worried at all about price. He can be a top goalie for another 5-7 years. We’ll see how Weber is when he comes back. Hopefully he will be back somewhat close to what his game level was before but they way they went with the surgery screams long terms, though

You don't think Dermott is a #2/3? I strongly disagree if I'm reading that right. If it's the future where Gardiner is gone, I assume Dermott has continued to grow. He wouldn't need to improve much to be a #3 imo. We actually DO need supporting dmen to fill in holes. Our Left side is good, with Rielly and Dermott. If one of the Marlies D turn out, particularly Liljegren (as a 2nd pairing guy is not too much to ask imo) then we will be fine.
Yes, we will not have a #1RHD. But that is not the be all/end all. The rest of this hypothetical defence we're talking about is decent and playing behind a great forward group. And in front of a good goalie.

I'm not saying your C prospects won't make it to the big show, just to be clear. I'm saying it's assuming they both reach their ceilings, which has lesser odds.

Agreed that Price is the lesser concern, you will probably get lots of serviceable time from him yet. I think Weber is going to become a problem for you, not be the #1dman you're describing when those prospects make it.

 

[loyaltotheend]

I don't know what we have yet. What I do know is that Tavares will be 30 before any of those young dmen make an impact. Support in this case meant top 4 - which I correctly laughed at.

Yeah I mean I think Liljegren has a pretty decent shot at becoming top-4, which is one thing we could really use. There are several guys on the Marlies who might be bottom pairing, and I think Holl also has top-4 potential, but not as highly touted as Liljegren obviously.
One of those guys making it through to top-4 isn't as big a stretch as the two habs C-prospects both turning out as #1/2 on a contender, which is the claim we were discussing when I replied to you. I thought you were jumping in on that, but I think you might have been replying to someone else. My mistake

 

[Danny1237]

I agree it's fun to watch the development of a young team. But it also takes time for that youth to emerge. It's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better but that's part of the process.

Habs have a few pieces to potentially build around but so does every single team and they have a lot of catching up to do and they are gonna get worse before they get better.

Having Poehling, Kotkaneimi but it's very doubtful either becomes an all-star level player. Where the Habs are truly lacking though is in the current young NHLers who already are or will be impact NHLers and that's gonna take a while for them to close that gap.

Go back to the Leafs before the 13-14 season and they had Kadri + Rielly as foundational youth and Kessel, Gardiner, JVR were only in their mid 20's. Then it was still 3 years of completely bottoming out to get Nylander, Marner and Matthews. They were very fortunate to end up with those 3. If they don't get Matthews (or Laine) then they likely are still rebuilding. Or if they ended up with Strome instead of Marner. Or if they took Nick Ritchie over Nylander (crazy to think but a lot of people wanted that at the time).

You are absolutely right, there will be pain, and Bergevin is a big question mark as to how fast he can help turn that corner. If the Habs start to trend a little upward, and he thinks they are more than what they are, I could see him doing some real long term damage.

Its a case of the team having the pieces to turn that corner and start working their way back up sooner than some expect, versus what if Bergevin tries too hard to push that along.

I really think Beregevin is one of the worst GMs in the league. He said he was going to take a playoff team to the next level by fixing the culture. He then made a series of questionable decisions, and 24 months later the team is awful, older, less skilled, and he blamed it all on the locker room. That is complete failure by his own metric of success. That should have been an immediate dismissal.

 

[sansabri]

Yeah I mean I think Liljegren has a pretty decent shot at becoming top-4, which is one thing we could really use. There are several guys on the Marlies who might be bottom pairing, and I think Holl also has top-4 potential, but not as highly touted as Liljegren obviously.
One of those guys making it through to top-4 isn't as big a stretch as the two habs C-prospects both turning out as #1/2 on a contender, which is the claim we were discussing when I replied to you. I thought you were jumping in on that, but I think you might have been replying to someone else. My mistake

We're not contending anymore, though. Leafs went all-in with the Tavares signing. Rielly is the only top pairing dman on that team and will be for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

You are absolutely right, there will be pain, and Bergevin is a big question mark as to how fast he can help turn that corner. If the Habs start to trend a little upward, and he thinks they are more than what they are, I could see him doing some real long term damage.

Its a case of the team having the pieces to turn that corner and start working their way back up sooner than some expect, versus what if Bergevin tries too hard to push that along.

I really think Beregevin is one of the worst GMs in the league. He said he was going to take a playoff team to the next level by fixing the culture. He then made a series of questionable decisions, and 24 months later the team is awful, older, less skilled, and he blamed it all on the locker room. That is complete failure by his own metric of success. That should have been an immediate dismissal.

Completely agree that Bergevin should have been canned. However, I also wonder how much of the blame should actually be on ownership (especially the PK Subban trade).

 

[djdev]

ive said this in many threads, but i will say it here too. the leafs defensive problems are systematic for the most part. the reason the defense looks bad at times is because our forward group dont support them enough, often waiting near center ice for the dreaded stretch pass instead of coming back as a group to allow our defense short outlet passes. if our forwards provided more support we would cut down the amount of neutral-zone turnovers by a good amount, and as leafs fans that watch every game can attest to, that is the biggest issue defensively for us. our defensemen get caught late in shifts after turning the puck over at center ice and are on the way too long, therefore exhausted which lead to goals or penalties or just dumb mistakes. the leafs have keefe as the marlies coach for a reason, he is teaching the new arrivals the system before they step on the ice with the leafs. jvr/bozak/polak/komo were good in their own way but those players, while trying for the most part, never got a proper grasp of the system babcock wanted to instill in the team. them leaving and being replaced by younger guys that have been groomed to play a 2 way game will help us alot. i believe we need another defenseman but i dont think its NEARLY as bad as people make it seem and dubas seems to know this, hes not panicking and trading the farm for defensemen who might not even help. i like petry but im not willing to give up a ton for him.

scoring goals is more reliant on talent than system, i believe defense is the opposite. so i like the way our team is constructed.

 

[loyaltotheend]

We're not contending anymore, though. Leafs went all-in with the Tavares signing. Rielly is the only top pairing dman on that team and will be for the foreseeable future.

If it was up to me, the top pair would be Gardiner-Rielly. They've played well together in the past, and their numbers back that up. Hoping Babcock eases up on the left-right rules. Dermott-Zaitsev/Hainsey would be decent 2nd pair. I don't think it's allstar defence. But it doesn't have to be. It just needs to be able to move the puck to that forward group. Replacing Polak on the 3rd pair with Carrick also helps with ability to pass/transition. Any of those Marlies turn out it adds to the depth. I have no illusions about it being star power

So being all in for the foreseeable future is not so bad imo

 

[Ziggdiezan]

No team can have a very good/elite forward group as well as very good/elite defenseman. It is a choice and is defined by how you want to build your team.

Luckily for the leafs the last couple Cups have all been won by teams that have had a stacked forwards group with a middle of the pack defense.

Leafs are not going to make any shake up trade until they know what they have.

 

[sansabri]

No team can have a very good/elite forward group as well as very good/elite defenseman. It is a choice and is defined by how you want to build your team.

Luckily for the leafs the last couple Cups have all been won by teams that have had a stacked forwards group with a middle of the pack defense.

Leafs are not going to make any shake up trade until they know what they have.

Flyers might just end up with 4 top pairing dmen...

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Flyers might just end up with 4 top pairing dmen...

Leafs may currently have 3 number 1Cs rather than potentially having 4 top pairing defenseman, what is your point?

By the time most of their younger defenders start to pay dividends a lot of their talented forwards will be on the wrong side of 30 and they won't have an elite forward core.

 

[sansabri]

Leafs may currently have 3 number 1Cs rather than potentially having 4 top pairing defenseman, what is your point?

By the time most of their younger defenders start to pay dividends a lot of their talented forwards will be on the wrong side of 30 and they won't have an elite forward core.

Who's the third 1C?

Provorov and Ghost are already top pairing defenders. Sanheim and Myers are trending that way.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Aside from Weber, Price and Pacioretty, Montreal’s core all under 25 years old.

Last year, our oldest players were Plekanec (35), Weber (32) and Price (30). The rest of the team was all under 30 years old, so I don’t see what your point is. We got talent, we got youth. We missed two top C’s and a top LHD to be competitive and we already have the two C’s in our famr system. We’re just missing a top LHD, which we most likely will get in the next draft.

So aside from your 3 best players, and two by a wide margin, you're a young team...while also not having a top 6 center or a prospect that's close to NHL ready who might be that? Sounds solid, you're playoff ready

 

[Brock Radunske]

Flyers might just end up with 4 top pairing dmen...

Just like Calgary had, right?

 

[sansabri]

Just like Calgary had, right?

This is relevant how?

 

[Danny1237]

Completely agree that Bergevin should have been canned. However, I also wonder how much of the blame should actually be on ownership (especially the PK Subban trade).

Yeah, ownership standing behind Bergevin despite him essentially saying he failed gives you good reason to question their decision making on it's own merits, without even getting into how involved they may have been in day to day operations.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Who's the third 1C?

Provorov and Ghost are already top pairing defenders. Sanheim and Myers are trending that way.

Kadri is a low end #1C/high end #2C by pretty much every metric and the eye test but I dont want to get into that debate.

Myers has yet to play a single NHL game while Sanheim has only played like half a season. They are a long way from being top pairing defenders if they do reach that potential

 

[Baksfamous112]

You don't think Dermott is a #2/3? I strongly disagree if I'm reading that right. If it's the future where Gardiner is gone, I assume Dermott has continued to grow. He wouldn't need to improve much to be a #3 imo. We actually DO need supporting dmen to fill in holes. Our Left side is good, with Rielly and Dermott. If one of the Marlies D turn out, particularly Liljegren (as a 2nd pairing guy is not too much to ask imo) then we will be fine.
Yes, we will not have a #1RHD. But that is not the be all/end all. The rest of this hypothetical defence we're talking about is decent and playing behind a great forward group. And in front of a good goalie.

I'm not saying your C prospects won't make it to the big show, just to be clear. I'm saying it's assuming they both reach their ceilings, which has lesser odds.

Agreed that Price is the lesser concern, you will probably get lots of serviceable time from him yet. I think Weber is going to become a problem for you, not be the #1dman you're describing when those prospects make it.

I don’t Dermott is a #2 - #3. He may turn out to be a good top 4 D but I doubt he ever becomes top pairing quality. I’m also not sold on Liljegren yet. The games I seen from him in Laval makes me wonder about his hockey IQ. There were some head scratchers plays almost every period. Maybe it’s because he was only 18-19 years old but there was something about his game that was off. He kinda reminds me of a little bit more talented Nathan Beaulieu. Hopefully he turns out better than Beaulieu

You are absolutely right, there will be pain, and Bergevin is a big question mark as to how fast he can help turn that corner. If the Habs start to trend a little upward, and he thinks they are more than what they are, I could see him doing some real long term damage.

Its a case of the team having the pieces to turn that corner and start working their way back up sooner than some expect, versus what if Bergevin tries too hard to push that along.

I really think Beregevin is one of the worst GMs in the league. He said he was going to take a playoff team to the next level by fixing the culture. He then made a series of questionable decisions, and 24 months later the team is awful, older, less skilled, and he blamed it all on the locker room. That is complete failure by his own metric of success. That should have been an immediate dismissal.

To be fair, last year his #1 D broke his ankle a period and a half into the season and went on LTIR after 26 games. He also lost his superstar goalie for almost half of the season and his #1/2C for a quarter of the season along with some injuries (Mete, Pacioretty, Lehkonen) for 20+ Games.

 

[Baksfamous112]

So aside from your 3 best players, and two by a wide margin, you're a young team...while also not having a top 6 center or a prospect that's close to NHL ready who might be that? Sounds solid, you're playoff ready

Poehling is bound to join us after his NCAA season ( last ~ 15 games of the season) and Kotkaniemi is debatable to start the season in Montreal for a 9 game test. Not sure where you’re getting this but it’s far from the truth.

Also, no Habs fans expect to make a run or even be in the playoff picture this season. We’re all (most of us) think we will start turning the ship around in 2019-2020

 

[sansabri]

Kadri is a low end #1C/high end #2C by pretty much every metric and the eye test but I dont want to get into that debate.

Myers has yet to play a single NHL game while Sanheim has only played like half a season. They are a long way from being top pairing defenders if they do reach that potential

Ha. No.

I said trending. Sanheim is already top 4 material.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Poehling is bound to join us after his NCAA season ( last ~ 15 games of the season) and Kotkaniemi is debatable to start the season in Montreal for a 9 game test. Not sure where you’re getting this but it’s far from the truth.

Also, no Habs fans expect to make a run or even be in the playoff picture this season. We’re all (most of us) think we will start turning the ship around in 2019-2020

haha, I would love for the Habs to ruin both of those guys by rushing them. Counting on them as impact players in the next 3 years is a long shot

that's still very optimistic as a timeline imo, then you run into statistically likely decline for Weber (especially considering his size, you can count the number of 6'3"+ top pairing dmen over the age of 34 on one hand and have fingers to spare), and the wildcard that is Price's health as well as his own potential decline with age, so your two big building blocks become more and more in question as time rolls along

anyway, good luck and I hope that the Habs brass sees it the same way you do

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Two very different situation. At the time, you had no real #1G. Your top 2 D were Phaneuf and Komisarek and your offense solely relied on Kessel, KVR and Bozak with absolutely no farm whatsoever.

Altough we do need a top LHD prospect (2019 draft), be patient and develop oir recent draft picks, we are light years away from the 2009-2012 Leafs.

Dude, price is injury prone and males 10 mil. Your num 1 d was trade for a guy whos been i jured all year and shut down again who also makes 7 plus mil for another 20 years. Gomaz for mcd was a less stupid trade.

Your stupid gm has alienated 85 percent of fans, burried his captain . not only are you in a worse spot then we were it could be another 15 years before you get out from the mess this gm has created for you.

Its worse than ottawa. And i take no glee in it. I want mtl strong because i want to beat them. Its realy as bad as it can get. If you think your team is light years away i dont know what to tell you. The culture around your team is very very very bad.you could take my whole team right now znd put it under your management and it would end very very badly.just....i dunno what to say...good luck?

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Leafs may currently have 3 number 1Cs rather than potentially having 4 top pairing defenseman, what is your point?

By the time most of their younger defenders start to pay dividends a lot of their talented forwards will be on the wrong side of 30 and they won't have an elite forward core.

Huh?

The Flyers have 2nd overall pick Nolan Patrick coming off his rookie year, Couturier is 25 and locked up long term, Konencky is 21 and just finished his 2nd season. They have a few very good forward prospects namely Morgan Frost. They've also got the top goaltending prospect in Carter Hart.

Giroux, Voracek and JVR are just starting to get around 29/30 and they have still have a few very good years left in them.

If anything the Flyers could be a contender very soon and for a long time.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Huh?

The Flyers have 2nd overall pick Nolan Patrick coming off his rookie year, Couturier is 25 and locked up long term, Konencky is 21 and just finished his 2nd season. They have a few very good forward prospects namely Morgan Frost. They've also got the top goaltending prospect in Carter Hart.

Giroux, Voracek and JVR are just starting to get around 29/30 and they have still have a few very good years left in them.

If anything the Flyers could be a contender very soon and for a long time.

I would give Giroux, Voracek and JVR like 3-4 years of top level play, will all your defensive prospects be top line defenders by then? As that was the original point a poster made it seemed, that the flyers would have 4 top pairing defenders while also having an elite forward core.

I dont think Patrick, Couturier and Konencky are an elite forward core which was my original point (that you can't have an elite forward core and elite defensive core). Too early to predict Frost in my opinion as he has only played junior hockey, trending in the right direction though.

 

[Jared Dunn]

I would give Giroux, Voracek and JVR like 3-4 years of top level play, will all your defensive prospects be top line defenders by then? As that was the original point a poster made it seemed, that the flyers would have 4 top pairing defenders while also having an elite forward core.

I dont think Patrick, Couturier and Konencky are an elite forward core which was my original point (that you can't have an elite forward core and elite defensive core). Too early to predict Frost in my opinion as he has only played junior hockey, trending in the right direction though.

That means going into next season they have 3 elite/high end forwards, 3-4 good 2nd liners, 2 young top pair D and a few more that look like they have potential somewhere from #2-4. Pretty good chance they have both an elite forward and D core within the next three years I'd say