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Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

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Pavel Buchnevich said:
At the very least, it seems like we are in agreement that Gorton played the leverage that he was afforded very poorly, potentially negating it by his actions.
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No. I don't agree with that at all.

Gorton (for all I know) got the best deal he could. I don't believe that McD would've gotten more in the offseason (no way of knowing that, I just don't believe that).

I believe he did the best he could. Never said poorly or negating it.
 
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Edge said:
I think the expectation for McD was set way too high. I truly don’t believe those deals were there, or were going to be there.

I also see the Rangers concern about going into a long term deal with McD. So in that regard, the clock was ticking. Not because the Rangers announced a rebuild, but because the minute the Rangers shopped McD the rest of the league was going to know he wasn’t in the Rangers long term plans.
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I very much discussing what a potential McDonagh deal would look like. and you, Trxjw and agreed that a return of Howden/Foote a 1st and a 2nd would be satisfactory. And here we are.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
At the very least, it seems like we are in agreement that Gorton played the leverage that he was afforded very poorly, potentially negating it by his actions.
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That is based on assumptions. The assumption that a better offer was ever going to be offered. The assumption that he could have gotten better prospects if he asked for it etc.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
I'd say its the opposite.

I thought we got less than fair value for McDonagh and more than fair value for Nash. You could say that evens out, but if the McDonagh trade is on a bigger scale, I'd hope that includes higher quality than just an equalization of quantity.
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For the sake of sanity of the board and this thread specifically I suggest you hold on to looking at things in a grand scale in your evaluation of Gorton to date.

He set out on overhauling the roster and coaching staff.

He moved pieces that needed to be moved and overall brought in a good value in prospects, draft picks and more trade pieces (even if you personally think that he got better value in Nash, Holden and Grabner trades than in McD/Miller). He got a coach that fit the direction he set and consistent with what he explicitly announced to the fans via media.

Color me content and I surely don’t see why it would not be a case for everyone.
 
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Amazing Kreiderman said:
That is based on assumptions. The assumption that a better offer was ever going to be offered. The assumption that he could have gotten better prospects if he asked for it etc.
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Always dumbfounding why posters make assumptions that better trades were available (and not pursued) because based on THEIR evaluation they should have been.
 
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I think the expectations were (mostly) right from the start. Maybe we were off the game in thinking it would be Foote instead of Hajek, but that's not that huge of a difference.

I think the main wave of disappointment came because of the tension on trade deadline day. We heard McDonagh was traded. Then, without hearing the other side, we heard Miller was also going the other way. Everyone's heads went to "holy ****, this is going to be absolutely huge" and then we saw it as a letdown because expectations after hearing the second piece went to Sergachev. Few thought Sergachev would come back for McDonagh. Some may have been hopeful for him, but knew it was a long shot. I think it was partially the way it was announced.

I see it this way. We traded two pieces who were not in the team's long term plans, both of whom are going to want long, expensive contracts. In return, we got quite good value in terms of future pieces that could be big parts of our future core. The real questions are: Did Gorton have any better offers out there? Did he think he could get better value by waiting for the draft?

The answer to the first one is an obvious no unless you think he's a moron. The answer to the second is a likely no just based off of history that proves itself time and time again: prices for players peak at the deadline and prices for draft picks/prospects peak at the draft. Imagine Nash & Grabner each had a year left on their contracts. Do you think Gorton could actually extract the 26th pick ++ for Nash right now? Hilarious to even think about. Both of those trades were highway robbery - as many deadline selling deals are.

My one wish is that we had played Toronto more against Tampa. You could see they were disappointed afterwards that they didn't get a chance to bid more after being told what it would take to get McDonagh. I don't doubt that Gorton's first ask from Tampa was Sergachev and Marner or Nylander from Toronto. It's just that talks heated up with Tampa and Gorton felt he would get better value by just negotiating with them as opposed to also Toronto - they had ~3 hours to do from reports. That was a judgement call for sure.

Having said that, I'm fine with the way things went. I only would've wanted to use Toronto as a bargaining tool - I liked Tampa's prospects more. Gorton knew what he was doing. He had a plan. He sold early on his other two major trade chips & got ridiculous value for them. TB had inquired on Miller before & from what SY said in his conference, it was NYR who asked to include Miller in the deal (knowing TB wanted him). This is the part that I wasn't super sold on. I know NYR wanted to get rid of Miller, but he's the one player who I think could have held higher value at the draft than when he was sold. It is what it is, though.
 
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jas said:
I very much discussing what a potential McDonagh deal would look like. and you, Trxjw and agreed that a return of Howden/Foote a 1st and a 2nd would be satisfactory. And here we are.
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I think it was a reasonable expectation.

Of course we all want more. Who wouldn’t?

I also freely admit that I liked Foote more than Hajek. But the point is that what the Rangers received wasn’t an out of left field, low-ball offer.
 
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kovazub94 said:
For the sake of sanity of the board and this thread specifically I suggest you hold on to looking at things in a grand scale in your evaluation of Gorton to date.

He set out on overhauling the roster and coaching staff.

He moved pieces that needed to be moved and overall brought in a good value in prospects, draft picks and more trade pieces (even if you personally think that he got better value in Nash, Holden and Grabner trades than in McD/Miller). He got a coach that fit the direction he set and consistent with what he explicitly announced to the fans via media.

Color me content and I surely don’t see why it would not be a case for everyone.
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I can’t remember who said it (maybe MachineHead?) — but the value of players doesn’t fluctuate in as short a period of time as we might think. They’re not like stocks in the sense that that bounce from game to game, week to week, or even month to month.

Yes, over a long enough period of time you’ll see differences. But I’m not sure McD’s return goes from the one we received, to a Sergachev level in the time between the deadline and the draft.
 
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Edge said:
I can’t remember who said it (maybe MachineHead?) — but the value of players doesn’t fluctuate in as short a period of time as we might think. They’re not like stocks in the sense that that bounce from game to game, week to week, or even month to month.

Yes, over a long enough period of time you’ll see differences. But I’m not sure McD’s return goes from the one we received, to a Sergachev level in the time between the deadline and the draft.
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It’s why there’s quotes from GMs after every trade about “we’ve really liked this guy for a long time.” Every team has people following and keeping tabs on players and other teams to the point of keeping full in depth organizational depth charts for every team in the league. If GMs were setting hard values on players from a game to game, or even week to week basis, they wouldn’t have their job as GM
 
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True Blue said:
Guilty until proven innocent, huh? What has to happen for him not to be an idiot? Quinn to be coach of the year? An instant Calder winner in the draft? MVP season from one of the kids he traded for?

You do understand that it is going to take a while before you can judge the moves?
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The play is in front of your eyes.
Develop until until you hit a home run.If you suck long enough you will get some dynamic talent.
 
Round and round we go. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and the more rational heads here proposed that a slightly better version of the Yandle is what we should realistically expect for McDonagh. Howden and Hajek are both very good prospects, so I don't feel like arguing all of those points again.

The other thing that I'm sure someone else has mentioned by now is that this offseason may have been an even worse time to trade McDonagh with the speculation around OEL and Karlsson. Gorton made a calculated move to jump ahead of the curve getting value while he can. Dorion's stupidity might end up hurting the market if he undersells EK65 just to avoid money issues.
 
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If we agree that McDonagh would return a slightly better package than Yandle, let's compare, shall we?

- Anthony Duclair, John Moore, low 1st round pick, 2nd round pick
- Brett Howden, Libor Hajek, low 1st round pick, 2nd round pick

Now, let's also keep in mind that Arizona retained 50% of Yandle's salary while we didn't on McDonagh's contract. The McDonagh return was significantly better than the Yandle return.


(For the sake of argument, I am excluding Namestnikov and Miller, even though I think that isn't a 1-for-1 trade)
 
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Amazing Kreiderman said:
If we agree that McDonagh would return a slightly better package than Yandle, let's compare, shall we?

- Anthony Duclair, John Moore, low 1st round pick, 2nd round pick
- Brett Howden, Libor Hajek, low 1st round pick, 2nd round pick

Now, let's also keep in mind that Arizona retained 50% of Yandle's salary while we didn't on McDonagh's contract. The McDonagh return was significantly better than the Yandle return.


(For the sake of argument, I am excluding Namestnikov and Miller, even though I think that isn't a 1-for-1 trade)
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I think it's tough to look back at this trade because at the time Duclair was considered a better prospect than what he's become.
 
SnowblindNYR said:
I think it's tough to look back at this trade because at the time Duclair was considered a better prospect than what he's become.
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Yes, but we also should not forget the salary retention. The 1st rounder was payment for the 50% salary retention. If we compare Yandle to McDonagh, we should take away that 1st rounder and the returns become:

Duclair, Moore, 2nd
Howden, Hajek, 1st, 2nd

Taking into account, the value of Duclair at the time, the McDonagh return is still significantly better value
 
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Bozle said:
Yeah, unrelated to the topic, really, but we sold on Duclair at the perfect time. Even though we misused Yandle, that’s still a really nice trade for us in hindsight.
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I think this was one of my biggest issues with AV. Management gets a prized piece for a cup run that actually fits well with the team and AV misuses him. What an arrogant f***.
 
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