Jaroslav Halak Vs Lars Eller

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

The problem I have with Halak being a "better" asset than Eller is that Halak was a below-average goalie for two of his three seasons with the Blues (including one where he was litterally a replacement-value goalie), and for his "best" season, he wasn't the best goaltender on his team.

So...

So... your basis for comparison is flawed from the beginning, as you're forced to acknowledge that Eller wasn't the best centre on his team, either, and I challenge you to devise a linear scale that relates "replacement value" among goalies to that among depth centres league-wide.

 

[Sorinth]

And I'm still saying that you're out to lunch.

Did Malkin make an impact in the NHL the year he was drafted? No.
Did Malkin make an impact in the NHL the second year after being drafted? No.

He made his mark in the third season after being drafted. But his value didn't decline over those 2 years because he was still viewed as a franchise center.

The same goes for Eller, his value didn't decline in the years between when he was drafted and when he was traded because he was developing well/as expected. You even admitted his value didn't go down until 2 years after the trade when he signed his RFA deal.

 

[MXD]

So... your basis for comparison is flawed from the beginning, as you're forced to acknowledge that Eller wasn't the best centre on his team, either, and I challenge you to devise a linear scale that relates "replacement value" among goalies to that among depth centres league-wide.

Most teams use 4 centers per game. Most teams also use only 1 goalie per game.

Was Halak an upper-quartile goalie for the last 3 seasons as a whole? (roughly equals to a no. 1 center) No

He probably even not an average goalie.

Was Eller an average NHL-player as a whole for the last 3 seasons? If he wasn't, he was darn close to it.

Did Eller had ANY upside when we got him? Sure

Is this exactly why we got him? Sure

Did Eller commended a 4M salary per year when we got him? No

Does he even make half of that at the moment? No

Was Eller worth more than his salary last season? Sure

Will he be this year? Hopefully, or else we'll suck.

Did any goalie signed in the bargain-bin would have made better than Halak for the last three seasons? Not every of them

Is Lars Eller a better player than, say, Alex Steen at the moment? Yes.

Would the Blues be a better team with Eller instead of Steen, considering Halak is arguably their 3rd stringer right now? Yes

Did Halak was better than Price for the three seasons? No, he wasn't.

Are we better off with Lars Eller as a 2nd center than with David Desharnais? Probably

In case the answer to the above-quesiton is no, are we better off with Lars Eller as 3rd Center compared to ANY of our other players, EXCLUDING Galchenyuk? ... Certainly.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Did Malkin make an impact in the NHL the year he was drafted? No.
Did Malkin make an impact in the NHL the second year after being drafted? No.

On what kind of scale or system are you determining Malkin's worth that could be applied to everyone? If "making an impact" to you means having to contribute to a Stanley Cup, it must confuse the heck out of you having high priced players on teams that have never won the Cup, or seeing players get raises without having won one, etc, etc...

 

[Genesis76]

2011-2012

Brian Elliott had a 0.94sv% and a 1.56 gaa

If Halak had below avg stats (with .926sv% and 1.97gaa) while being a replacement goalie for Elliot (top 3)

Stats wise how can we argue that keeping Price (.916sv% and 2.43gaa) over Halak was a better deal?

It`s not like Eller was our first line center that year..

 

[Sorinth]

On what kind of scale or system are you determining Malkin's worth that could be applied to everyone? If "making an impact" to you means having to contribute to a Stanley Cup, it must confuse the heck out of you having high priced players on teams that have never won the Cup, or seeing players get raises without having won one, etc, etc...

You can change impact to be play a single game and the point still stands. Malkin didn't make the NHL until the 3rd year after he was drafted. A player doesn't lose his value just because someone from his draft class made the NHL before him. So long as he progresses as expected he'll keep his value, if he struggles he'll lose value, if he exceeds expectations he'll gain value. Malkin progressed as expected, so did Eller so they kept their value. It doesn't matter that Perron made the NHL before Eller, or that Meszaros made the NHL before Malkin.

 

[MXD]

2011-2012

Brian Elliott had a 0.94sv% and a 1.56 gaa

If Halak had below avg stats (with .926sv% and 1.97gaa) while being a replacement goalie for Elliot (top 3)

Stats wise how can we argue that keeping Price (.916sv% and 2.43gaa) over Halak was a better deal?

It`s not like Eller was our first line center that year..

Hummmmmmmm...

That's one year out of three.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You can change impact to be play a single game and the point still stands. Malkin didn't make the NHL until the 3rd year after he was drafted. A player doesn't lose his value just because someone from his draft class made the NHL before him. So long as he progresses as expected he'll keep his value, if he struggles he'll lose value, if he exceeds expectations he'll gain value. Malkin progressed as expected, so did Eller so they kept their value. It doesn't matter that Perron made the NHL before Eller, or that Meszaros made the NHL before Malkin.

This still makes no sense. First of all, the "potential" of these players was all very different from the beginning. Secondly, you're talking about a guy who stuck in the NHL from game 1 (lit it up, actually), and another guy who made the NHL squad right out of junior, has already had multiple 20 goal seasons, and has already earned a much larger contract, versus a guy who was sent back down the the AHL after his first Cup of coffee, and got traded after his second. 1st round picks that stick in the NHL from the first day they're given the opportunity are worth more than future 1st round picks and 1st round picks who still haven't stuck full-time. That's just how it is.

Eller has now stuck full-time, and has now found somewhere that needs (and will continue ot need) him filling a top 6 role. Like I've been saying all along though, 3 years in, he's just starting to perform commensurate with what he originally cost, and that's okay, because 3 years in we're a lot more comfortable having seen the progress. Still didn't, and won't, have the proven value of the other guys until his play/production turns into a healthy raise, or a trade for a 1st round pick, I suppose.

 

[Sorinth]

This still makes no sense. First of all, the "potential" of these players was all very different from the beginning. Secondly, you're talking about a guy who stuck in the NHL from game 1 (lit it up, actually), and another guy who made the NHL squad right out of junior, has already had multiple 20 goal seasons, and has already earned a much larger contract, versus a guy who was sent back down the the AHL after his first Cup of coffee, and got traded after his second. 1st round picks that stick in the NHL from the first day they're given the opportunity are worth more than future 1st round picks and 1st round picks who still haven't stuck full-time. That's just how it is.

Eller has now stuck full-time, and has now found somewhere that needs (and will continue ot need) him filling a top 6 role. Like I've been saying all along though, 3 years in, he's just starting to perform commensurate with what he originally cost, and that's okay, because 3 years in we're a lot more comfortable having seen the progress. Still didn't, and won't, have the proven value of the other guys until his play/production turns into a healthy raise, or a trade for a 1st round pick, I suppose.

Of course it doesn't make sense because a player's value doesn't change based on what some other draft pick did like you are claiming. Eller's value did not become less because Perron did very well. Peron increased his value since being drafted based on what Perron did. Eller was still on track to be a top-6, 2-way center with size, the fact that Perron's value increased at a faster rate and potentially eclipsed Eller's doesn't have any bearing on Eller's trade value. Nobody thought to themselves there's no way I'll give a 1st round pick for Eller because Perron has done better than him.

We traded for a prospect, of course it will take time for him to establish himself. Why are you so surprised by this? Taking 3 years to establish yourself is perfectly normal, especially when your not given much of an opportunity. I don't think anyone in MTL's management was expecting Eller to come in produce like a top-6 forward from the start. Eller's development was very reasonable.

 

[HABS win CUPS*]

You're dreaming in colour. No way Halak would have stayed around 3 more years to be Price's back up(and the same can be said for Price). Since the trade Price has been the better/more reliable goalie even with last year's late season fade PLUS we got a very good young center in Eller.

Oh I agree it was kind of overkill to have both on the permanent roster esp when Halak's trade value was maxed out so high

I was really impressed last year whenever Budaj got in net also so I'd say the Eller deal was good

But still a wildcard goalie who can come off the bench and take your entire team deep into the playoffs -tough to deal that away

I like Price anyways and thought he played really really well last year. He was the real reason we finished so high in the division. Then everyone slumped all at once and injuries injuries injuries

 

[Kriss E]

I'd say it's certainly debatable and I don't think it's all that big a reach. Many of us thought we could've done better back when it was made (including me.) What I was happy about though was at least we got a prospect that PG believed in. To his credit, PG could've gone after some vet instead and didn't do it. If for no other reason than this he deserves credit for having the vision to trade for the future at least.

At the end of the day though, I still think this deal will work out for both clubs. I really like the way Eller developed last year. And I think Halak will bounce back this year. Hitch still sees him as the starter and unless he gets hurt I think the job will be his. In any event, I'm satisfied with the return. It seems to have worked out... We'll see I guess.

No offense, but it's not because many people thought the trade could have been better that it makes it true. I think it was pretty fair value, maybe we could have opted for different prospects but not better.

I hope for Halak that he bounces back, hes playing for a contract next year.

 

[Lafontaine]

Ok its been a few years now, at the time it wasn't a popular trade as Halak was coming off a heroic playoffs run. Forward 3 years to the future. Would you have traded Halak for Eller now?

Jaroslav Halak
5'11" 185lbs
29 years old
2012-13 St. Louis NHL 16 6 5 1 813 29 286 2.14 .899 3
2011-12 St. Louis NHL 46 26 12 7 2747 90 1211 1.97 .926 6
2010-11 St. Louis NHL 57 27 21 7 3294 136 1518 2.48 .910 7

Lars Eller
6'2" 219lbs
2012-13 Montreal NHL 46 8 22 30 8
2011-12 Montreal NHL 79 16 12 28 -5
2010-11 Montreal NHL 77 7 10 17 -4

Answer: hard to say, Eller is coming into his own now. We have Price who's the better goalie than Halak, so yes I still would have made this trade.

Was it a good trade? Yes. Was it the right decision? I'm not so sure.

In my opinion it is still debatable whether or not Carey Price is a better goalie than Halak. Halak has actually had competition for a number one spot in St. Louis, Price has been given a golden ticket in Montreal since the trade.

Eller is a stud and was a great return on Halak, but it can be argued that Price had more trade value at the time. What if the question was, would you rather have moved Halak for Eller or Price for Eller + (insert second STL youngster here)

Assuming we would have recieved a similarly good return on Price, I would still prefer to have kept Halak.

 

[Kriss E]

Was it a good trade? Yes. Was it the right decision? I'm not so sure.

In my opinion it is still debatable whether or not Carey Price is a better goalie than Halak. Halak has actually had competition for a number one spot in St. Louis, Price has been given a golden ticket in Montreal since the trade.

Eller is a stud and was a great return on Halak, but it can be argued that Price had more trade value at the time. What if the question was, would you rather have moved Halak for Eller or Price for Eller + (insert second STL youngster here)

Assuming we would have recieved a similarly good return on Price, I would still prefer to have kept Halak.

I don't think Halak and Price should be talked about in the same category. Not because I think they're on different talent level, but because Halak still hasn't played a full season like you expect a #1 to do.

The competition Halak got in Stl is Elliot, not some stud goalie. He shouldn't be competing against him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No offense, but it's not because many people thought the trade could have been better that it makes it true. I think it was pretty fair value, maybe we could have opted for different prospects but not better.
I hope for Halak that he bounces back, hes playing for a contract next year.

Maybe. I don't know if we got the best value we could or not. But I don't think it's a huge stretch to suggest that we might've.

Regardless, we got a prospect that our GM believed in and that's fair enough. Like I said, it's looking like a good deal so I won't complain. I didn't complain when it was made either. You can't argue for your Gm to trade for prospects only to get upset when he gets a first rounder. He got what he thought was good value and he's being proven right (for now anyway.)

I don't think Halak and Price should be talked about in the same category. Not because I think they're on different talent level, but because Halak still hasn't played a full season like you expect a #1 to do.

The competition Halak got in Stl is Elliot, not some stud goalie. He shouldn't be competing against him.

Since the trade only Rinne has played more games than Carey Price. Totally different ballgame.