Jared Bednar & Co. Discussion Thread

[RoyIsALegend]

I hate that Gabe Landeskog has been the captain for 4 losses in a row to DeBoer!

Luck is so cruel that we have such a terrible captain!

Oh, you!

 

[Foppa2118]

In a vacuum, you're right. Oettinger outcoached Bednar. Avs finish some more chances and they win.

But Bednar should be changed for some of the more immeasurable things. He's slow to make adjustments, if at all. He will just keep doing the same thing over and over. It's insanity.

If the players aren't executing, or lacking intensity, it falls on the coach. That was the bottom line reason we didn't win. The players refuse to play playoff style hockey - throw it in front,, crash the net, get bounces, hit people, clog up the middle of the ice. The Stars do that.

Some elite skill players were able to expose Dallas and get good chances, but time and time again, Deboer is able to clog up Bednar's system and keep players to the outside. Very little penetration. Just because there's lots of nice stats doesn't mean that Deboer didn't shut down Bednar. The Stars imposed their style on the Avs, not vice-versa.

Yes, a really good goalie helped, but Oettinger wasn't unbeatable, just made huge saves at the right time. They iced Petrovic/Ceci/Lybuskin for the entire game over 7 games. There's no way that should stop Cale/Nate/etc. That's a coaching thing.

I can understand the argument that it's time for a new voice, and that Bednar may have contributed to how the players played due to things like overplaying his stars, not practicing, being too stubborn with his line combos, and his skating system impacting their shooting percentage.

I can't understand the argument that DeBoer "outcoached" Bednar, because there's nothing except results to support that argument, and you can find any two results to correlate with each other, even if one obviously didn't cause the other.

Landeskog has been captain for all 4 playoff losses to DeBoer, and played in 3 of the 4. Is he a bad captain? Did he get out captained by Jamie Benn?

 

[Freaky Styley]

I can understand the argument that it's time for a new voice, and that Bednar may have contributed to how the players played due to things like overplaying his stars, not practicing, being too stubborn with his line combos, and his skating system impacting their shooting percentage.

I can't understand the argument that DeBoer "outcoached" Bednar, because there's nothing except results to support that argument, and you can find any two results to correlate with each other, even if one obviously didn't cause the other.

Landeskog has been captain for all 4 playoff losses to DeBoer, and played in 3 of the 4. Is he a bad captain? Did he get out captained by Jamie Benn?

Agree to disagree. The Avs are always forced to play to Dallas' kind of game, not vice-versa. Deboer knows how to disrupt and neutralize Bednar's system.

 

[Foppa2118]

Agree to disagree. The Avs are always forced to play to Dallas' kind of game, not vice-versa. Deboer knows how to disrupt and neutralize Bednar's system.

I respect you and I'm totally fine disagreeing. But I just don't understand these arguments, when DeBoer didn't disrupt anything, or neutralize the Avs at all.

The eye test showed that IMO, but that's why I also keep posting the stats, showing the Avs were 1st or 2nd in almost everything, and the Stars were mostly 15th or 16th.

They blew three 3rd period leads due to preventable mistakes. They don't do that and they beat DeBoer 6 out of 7 games.

Spoiler: Stats

Only notable 5v5 stat that Dallas was better at, was their shooting percentage. Pretty telling.

Through the First Round 5v5

Shot Attempts For / 60 mins

Avs - 1st
Dallas - 14th

Shot Attempts Against / 60 mins

Avs - 3rd
Stars - 16th (dead last)

Corsi %

Avs - 1st
Stars - 16th (dead last)

Scoring Chances For / 60 mins

Avs - 1st
Dallas - 13th

Scoring Chances Against / 60 mins

Avs - 1st
Dallas - 16th (dead last)

High Danger Chances For / 60 mins

Avs - 2nd
Dallas - 11th

High Danger Chances Against / 60 mins

Avs - 6th
Stars - 15th

High Danger Chances %

Avs - 2nd
Stars - 15th

Medium Danger Chances For / 60 mins

Avs - 1st
Stars - 13th

Medium Danger Chances Against / 60 mins

Avs - 4th
Stars - 16th (dead last)

xGF%

Avs - 4th
Stars - 15th

Shooting Percentage

Avs - 12th
Stars - 8th

 

[GeoRox89]

I can understand the argument that it's time for a new voice, and that Bednar may have contributed to how the players played due to things like overplaying his stars, not practicing, being too stubborn with his line combos, and his skating system impacting their shooting percentage.

I can't understand the argument that DeBoer "outcoached" Bednar, because there's nothing except results to support that argument, and you can find any two results to correlate with each other, even if one obviously didn't cause the other.

Landeskog has been captain for all 4 playoff losses to DeBoer, and played in 3 of the 4. Is he a bad captain? Did he get out captained by Jamie Benn?

You’re tilting at windmills here. Everyone is pretty entrenched in their positions. I didn’t see enough of this series to comment one way or the other

Outcoached this time or not (definitely were against Vegas 21 and Dallas 24), Bednar himself called this a results driven league and other than one year they had an exceptionally dominant run with the best roster of the Cap era the results have not been there.

There’s only so many levers you can pull. We tried the trade a core player as the shakeup and it backfired. It’s past time to pull the bring in a new coach one. Unfortunately, it seems the Nuggets are the passion project where results matter and Kroenke isn’t nearly as bold with his other teams

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Dude are you serious?

I just responded to you, reminding you of the multiple things, and multiple times I've put responsibility on Bednar for this loss, and that I understand the argument that they may need a new voice.

That's a different discussion from whether DeBoer outcoached Bednar or not.

You guys are looking at this so emotionally, you're just burying your head in the sand at things that prove that argument wrong, asking that they not be brought up anymore, and accusing me of things I just showed you weren't true.

I'm bowing out. Respect you too much to go any futher. But every time I see so much as a soft defense of Bednar, I am literally seeing red.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm bowing out. Respect you too much to go any futher. But every time I see so much as a soft defense of Bednar, I am literally seeing red.

I can tell and I understand. It's definitely not the best time to have a thoughtful conversation on this. Maybe another time.

 

[wayninja]

Landeskog has been captain for all 4 playoff losses to DeBoer, and played in 3 of the 4. Is he a bad captain? Did he get out captained by Jamie Benn?

Lmao

 

[forsbergavs32]

 

[CobraAcesS]

I can tell and I understand. It's definitely not the best time to have a thoughtful conversation on this. Maybe another time.

I actually agree with you, probablem is I see the special teams as the reason we lost, mostly the PP. Pratt has very good development skills, but the PK is infuriating at times.

They for sure are replacing the right coach for a new voice, not just the PP, but an overall impact on the offensive creativity of the team is needed.

Bednar is not just responsible for 5v5 though. He's running up against the thin red line at this point. Having an assistant fired is a shot across the bow for sure.

 

[Alienblood]

Personally, I am expecting Bednar to 'Paul Maurice' his way out of town. I'll be somewhat surprised if he's still head coach a week from now.

I don't think the Avs would want to 'fire him' outright but to 'mutually agree to move on' seems like something that should happen for both sides.

I'm pretty sure he knows he'll get another coaching gig pretty fast at a higher salary anyhow.

Bednar is very much a one-trick pony. Against some teams, it works extremely well but against others, it seems to be harder than it should be in the playoffs.

That's because - a lot of times, teams take on the persona of the coach.

His 'thank you sir, may I have another' philosophy just isn't made for playoff hockey :

Massive piece of shit jamie benn - headshots Devon Toews in the 2024 2nd round - no response.​

The two of spades roope hints - viciously cross-checks MacKinnon in the back of the head - no response.​

Are you f***ing kidding me ? Imagine if the Avs had not responded to slava kozlov ramming Adam Foote's head against the glass way back in 1995? LOL yeah, I don't f***ing think so.

It's because you're telling the other team - yeah, no - that's not going to happen - you want to take liberties on our best players then we are going to do the same to you - and it won't be pretty. Instead, his philosophy is that "it's ok" for those players to do shit like that to our guys, we'll just turn the other cheek and hope it doesn't happen again. It's a f***ING mind-set and you can't have that kind of mindset in the playoffs.

Jesus Christ - at this point, I think if we acquired Tom frikkin' Wilson - Bednar would turn him into Joel Armia.

He overplays his top guys because he doesn't think he can win UNLESS he does that. Which leads to those guys playing way too much - taking over nearly 95% of all of the power play time and at the same time - if you're not on that top PP unit - then you feel like you're not good enough to get it done. He doesn't empower players and instill confidence in them - and if you're ever played competitive hockey and you feel that your coach doesn't have confidence in you, it's really tough.

There's a reason why likely 29-30 NHL teams have TWO POWER PLAY LINES that get equalish playing time - Bednar thinks he's re-inventing the wheel over here. It's not like we don't have enough talent to fill two power play lines. By not having a decent 2nd unit and giving them adequate time (no...20 seconds left when the opponent just cleared the puck - IS NOT adequate time) you're not giving these top players that 'candy' that they've had since they were little kids getting power play time. You're basically telling them "sit down! I got some guys that are SO damn good, they'll play the entire 2 minutes". You're not giving them the opportunity to be successful and have it be their turn to help out the team.

For me, the fact that he didn't even TRY for ONE f***ING SHIFT - Necas with Nelson after the chemistry WE ALL SAW them have together for a little stretch at the end of the regular season is just absolutely unforgiveable. It's tony grantool-like incompetence who refused to TRY Selanne with Forsberg - not even ONCE!

The fact that he didn't take a timeout after Mikko scored his first goal or after sammy G scored the 2nd one - shows how bad he is because he's afraid it's going to give the other team more of a tactical advantage. He thinks he'd be giving them the upper hand because he's such a poor tactician - when the reality is that you just have to rally your troops, get them back on the same page AND break the other teams' momentum.

His time has come to an end.

Anyone who doesn't think this is actually on Bednar (I've seen a few posts ) sadly just doesn't understand hockey.

shows you how dumb Sakic is

 

[GeoRox89]

View attachment 1031096

She doesn’t even go here! Replace RIAL with her on the waiver wire

 

[Alienblood]

Carle isn't going to accept an assistant role to leave DU, even if it comes with a head coaching promise in a few years. Not to mention the fact that I can almost guarantee he'll get some calls about a head coaching spots this year.

I don't know why the Avs continually say Bednar is one of the best in the business. Facts state a completely different story. Outside of one fluke run he hasn't been able to get past the 2nd round in 9 years. Most coaches with this resume get a pink slip. I thought the goal was to win championships not lose 1st or 2nd round every year.

Good coaches wouldn't lose 1st or 2nd round every year, with 2 of the best players on the planet on their roster. Good coaches wouldn't get smoked by the same guy every year.

At a certain point you have to call a spade a spade. He's an average coach who has gotten so so results considering his players, with one fluke run. He should be out of a job with this organization. It's time.

It shows you what the Avs goals are, to fool yhe fans

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Or who else could we target?

We could finally go out and get JT.

Look, everybody knows Torts has a very short f***ing shelf life. Why not bring him in as an assistant (if we can get him to accept that role) but have play the role of disrupter. New eyes, new voice. Maybe a bit of feedback to the HC about ice time.

I could think of nobody better that is currently available. With Coach Q, everyone would automatically suspect he's the replacement. I don't think that would be the case with Torts. But I also don't think Torts would agree to it. No matter how much latitude he was offered as an assistant.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Some folks think the players are to blame, some folks think the coaches are to blame.

I think most folks can agree to disagree when it ultimately comes down to this. But I'm trying understand what you view the role of the HC as actually being?

Quite simple actually.
The HC’s job is to create an outline or a blueprint for how he wants players to play. A HC’s job is to come up with the scheme to get the best results for the lineup he has.

Now, I think motivation is a part of a HC job. At the same time, motivation has to come from within the player. A coach can only motivate so far. The player has to have the desire. There cannot be an expectation of your coach to motivate you for every game, every shift, it’s unrealistic.

And to be clear, I don’t believe the coaches or the players are solely to blame. It was most definitely a combo of the 2. I think the coaching staff had a good plan in place. The AVS carried majority of play, generated majority of chances and shots. At the same time, the coaching failed miserably in special teams.

As for the players, they choked in moments. In game 7, for 47 minutes, they were playing perfect hockey. And they melted in 13 minutes.
They choked away a 4 minute PP in game 3, Lehkonens empty net, blown 3rd periods.

Enough blame to go around.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Quite simple actually.
The HC’s job is to create an outline or a blueprint for how he wants players to play. A HC’s job is to come up with the scheme to get the best results for the lineup he has.

Now, I think motivation is a part of a HC job. At the same time, motivation has to come from within the player. A coach can only motivate so far. The player has to have the desire. There cannot be an expectation of your coach to motivate you for every game, every shift, it’s unrealistic.

And to be clear, I don’t believe the coaches or the players are solely to blame. It was most definitely a combo of the 2. I think the coaching staff had a good plan in place. The AVS carried majority of play, generated majority of chances and shots. At the same time, the coaching failed miserably in special teams.

As for the players, they choked in moments. In game 7, for 47 minutes, they were playing perfect hockey. And they melted in 13 minutes.
They choked away a 4 minute PP in game 3, Lehkonens empty net, blown 3rd periods.

Enough blame to go around.

I'm really struggling to understand how skating Makar and MacKinnon 25+ minutes a night... often times closer to 30 minutes is a good plan.

This is a big sticking point for me right now. I just don't find this a sustainable model. It appears that history is beginning to agree with those that feel this way. We've tried different centers, what we haven't tried is different coaches. Bennett being removed was not enough. Our problems actually extend to 5v5 becuase of how much time our top 5 are on the ice but not tilting it. They're too tired to sustain it all the time in the offensive zone. Now, I understand there is another team playing here but it's very difficult to not re-watch a game and just say... you could cut this whole shift out, that whole shift out, none of this mattered and all it did was wear out the top 5. A good coach edits the game while it is in progress.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I'm really struggling to understand how skating Makar and MacKinnon 25+ minutes a night... often times closer to 30 minutes is a good plan.

This is a big sticking point for me right now. I just don't find this a sustainable model. It appears that history is beginning to agree with those that feel this way. We've tried different centers, what we haven't tried is different coaches. Bennett being removed was not enough. Our problems actually extend to 5v5 becuase of how much time our top 5 are on the ice but not tilting it. They're too tired to sustain it all the time in the offensive zone. Now, I understand there is another team playing here but it's very difficult to not re-watch a game and just say... you could cut this whole shift out, that whole shift out, none of this mattered and all it did was wear out the top 5. A good coach edits the game while it is in progress.

There’s no doubt I agree. I absolutely hate Bednar’s ice time usage throughout the seasons. It needs to be adjusted.
We need to see balanced ice time. We need to see two PP units.
We need to get a true sense of what the Avs look like when they’re not abusing their top players and skewing results.

I didn’t think Bednar was going to be fired. I would’ve preferred they move on from him to get a different tactical approach. But it didn’t happen, and it’s not going to unless the Avs suck out the gate next season or severely underperform.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm really struggling to understand how skating Makar and MacKinnon 25+ minutes a night... often times closer to 30 minutes is a good plan.

This is a big sticking point for me right now. I just don't find this a sustainable model. It appears that history is beginning to agree with those that feel this way. We've tried different centers, what we haven't tried is different coaches. Bennett being removed was not enough. Our problems actually extend to 5v5 becuase of how much time our top 5 are on the ice but not tilting it. They're too tired to sustain it all the time in the offensive zone. Now, I understand there is another team playing here but it's very difficult to not re-watch a game and just say... you could cut this whole shift out, that whole shift out, none of this mattered and all it did was wear out the top 5. A good coach edits the game while it is in progress.

It's definitely not sustainable. Even for Makar.

I've been saying the last couple years, that just because Cale's been able to play that much in the past, doesn't mean he can continue to do so, or that it's smart to keep playing him that much.

He won't have the energy of youth forever. He turns 27 in October. The older you get, the more recovery you need after hard workouts, for your body to perform well.

It will work until it doesn't. Then you'll be left trying to explain why Cale and Nate were burned out in the playoffs, or got hurt.

Maybe this was that year. Maybe not. Not sure.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

There’s no doubt I agree. I absolutely hate Bednar’s ice time usage throughout the seasons. It needs to be adjusted.
We need to see balanced ice time. We need to see two PP units.
We need to get a true sense of what the Avs look like when they’re not abusing their top players and skewing results.

I didn’t think Bednar was going to be fired. I would’ve preferred they move on from him to get a different tactical approach. But it didn’t happen, and it’s not going to unless the Avs suck out the gate next season or severely underperform.

You (and a few others) are a lot more... mature in your response. We need that to counter my constant cynicism, gallows humor and let's nuke it from orbit mentality.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

It's definitely not sustainable. Even for Makar.

I've been saying the last couple years, that just because Cale's been able to play that much in the past, doesn't mean he can continue to do so, or that it's smart to keep playing him that much.

He won't have the energy of youth forever. He turns 27 in October. The older you get, the more recovery you need after hard workouts, for your body to perform well.

It will work until it doesn't. Then you'll be left trying to explain why Cale and Nate were burned out in the playoffs, or got hurt.

Maybe this was that year. Maybe not. Not sure.

Folks were saying that was the case last year.

Some have been beating the drum for multiple years. I just started picking up on it myself this season.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Folks were saying that was the case last year.

Some have been beating the drum for multiple years. I just started picking up on it myself this season.

It's f***in unacceptable, but Bednar has also been running teams that are very top heavy. It doesn't just matter for our top players either.

While the teams are/were flawed Bednar shouldn't be gunning for the Presidents trophy, or Division titles with those teams either.

 

[S E P H]

I hate that Gabe Landeskog has been the captain for 4 losses in a row to DeBoer!

Luck is so cruel that we have such a terrible captain!

What an apples to International Space Station level of argument here, brethren.

 

[Foppa2118]

What an apples to International Space Station level of argument here, brethren.

They're both examples of correlation not equaling causation IMO.

Like Patrick Roy having a losing record in Game 7's.

Like Ray Bourque losing in the playoffs 20 times before winning.

Like Steve Yzerman losing in the playoffs 11 times before winning.

Like Wayne Gretzky never winning a Cup after he left a juggernaut in Edmonton.

Like Henrik Lundvist, Curtis Joseph, Marcel Dionne, Gilbert Perrault, Peter Stastny, Michel Goulet, Pavel Bure, Mike Gartner, Cam Neely, Adam Oates, Pat Lafontaine, Dino Ciccarelli, Keith Tkachuk, Daniel Alfredsson, Jarome Iginla, Jeremy Roenick, and Paul Kariya, never winning a Stanley Cup.

Like Lindy Ruff, Roger Nielsen, Jacques Martin, Pat Quinn, and Pete DeBoer never winning a Cup.

Like Paul Maurice never winning a Cup before last year.

 

[The Moops]

Pete DeBoer never winning a Cup

If we could clone Bednar 4 times DeBoer would win every year

 

[Foppa2118]

If we could clone Bednar 4 times DeBoer would win every year

Well that's fair. I don't think saying the same thing 4 times would help much.

You could also clone Pete DeBoer 4 times and he still wouldn't have a Cup yet.