Jared Bednar & Co. Discussion Thread

[BobRossColton]

Not a bad choice.

He won’t be cheap, though. The Avs like cheap head coaches.

Foote is likely to go with him as an assistant coach wherever he lands.

Wonder if he'd jump at the chance to work with Nate and Cale..

 

[Foppa2118]

Whose assistants are Bennett and Pratt? JB. PP and PK don’t work? Should’ve been switched up long ago. Playing a passive PK. That was a serious mistake. You know the old adage about where the buck stops. So at a minimum I would hope you’d support canning Bennett and Pratt.

And who overworked guys like Mack, Makar and Toews? TBF, JB didn’t have much choice when they were a one line team with so many injuries

I agree the players had already mentally checked out. But I can’t forgive JB’s stubbornness or lack of adaptability in mixing up his lines. Or coaching the physicality out of Lindgren. He was so much more effective earlier in the series.

Avs might have had a chance if JB recognized much earlier the value of being able to roll four effective lines from the outset. At one point, posters here loved our bottom 6 and many talked about promoting Coyle to 2C. While I don’t agree with that proposal, it shows the third line was working. Instead as the series wore on, the 3rd line sucked.

Still, Avs simply didn’t have the drive to go far in the POs despite having been gifted a team with holes filled, GTing, 2C, health, Stars injuries, veteran players that had already won the SC and Landeskog’s return. If you don’t have the drive and you’re still a player then you’re a passenger. So in that sense I can at least accept and reconcile this galling loss. They weren’t going to get very far in the POs regardless. The players checked out is another way of saying they didn’t meet their obligations as professionals. That’s a conversation I’d hope the HC would have with Makar and Toews. You say it’s totally on the players to maintain that focus. Sometimes it’s necessary to have that discussion.

It makes me wonder what attributes IYO you regard as making a good HC. We differ there and saying figure it out guys really does nothing to change the dynamic or trajectory of the series. The inability to perceive that is frustrating.

Unless the Avs can get another HC that’s somewhat palatable then okay, stay with JB. But stubbornness to changing things up in the face of a lack of offensive production is not good coaching. That’s indisputable hard evidence given the outcome regardless of what the stats say. As I wrote earlier. The only metric that really matters is who ultimately wins the series. That’s why you can’t rely solely on stats or an eye test that blinds you to what everyone else sees. Sorry Foppa2118. You’re one of the forum members whose opinion I sincerely value and hold in high regard. But I think you were overly dismissive of some of the concerns which we JB critics raised long ago.

Maybe DeBoer is incredibly lucky but if JB couldn’t see how he lost games 2, 3 and 7 - close games that the Avs should have put away but allowed the Stars the opportunity to tie it late and win it then that’s really disappointing. It was the same pattern over and over and JB never adapted.

JB can be pretty cerebral but sometimes, he’s just being stubborn without a good reason. And IMO that directly lead to last night’s outcome.

I understand, and I think I blamed him for much of what you said here. Overworking the players and the line combos specifically.

I've also been the only one saying for years I believe there's a downside to his skating system, that it impacts their shooting accuracy, because they work so hard to get the puck, to generate the scoring chance, but then naturally relax when they go to shoot. I've been saying this well before this recent iteration of people wanting to fire Bednar.

I just think the main problem is the players mental struggles in the playoffs. They easily could have won despite all the criticisms on coaching. They won 3 games, and lost 3 games giving up leads in the third period. That sounds to me like they should have won 6 out of 7, but gave it away.

Regarding special teams, I just think that is mostly on the players. I've never seen a special teams unit so incredibly hot and cold. Just look at how they played this year as an example.

Power Play

The PP was 2nd in the NHL for the first 16 games from October through Nov 12th. Then the next 45 games from Nov 12 to Feb 27 they were 28th in the NHL. They were also 1st in the NHL for the last 33 games, from Jan 24 to Apr 13. Then they went cold again in the playoffs.

Penalty Kill

The first 22 games of the season, the PK was 28th in the NHL from Oct 9 to Nov 25. Then the final 60 games of the season, they were 4th in the NHL, including 40 games from Nov 26 to Mar 5 where they were tied for 1st with Dallas. Then they went ice cold again in the playoffs, and gently just looked confused and out of sorts.

If the problem with special teams was coaching, I don't think they'd be able to be among the best in the league for long stretches like they have. Similar to how if DeBoer was why the Avs lost, they wouldn't be able to beat him so often in the regular season, and dominate them at times.

 

[Avs_19]

Get Woodcroft.

 

[flyfysher]

I understand, and I think I blamed him for much of what you said here. Overworking the players and the line combos specifically.

I've also been the only one saying for years I believe there's a downside to his skating system, that it impacts their shooting accuracy, because they work so hard to get the puck, to generate the scoring chance, but then naturally relax when they go to shoot. I've been saying this well before this recent iteration of people wanting to fire Bednar.

I just think the main problem is the players mental struggles in the playoffs. They won 3 games, and lost 3 games giving up leads in the third period. That sounds to me like they should have won 6 out of 7, but gave it away.

Regarding special teams, I just think that is mostly on the players. I've never seen a special teams unit so incredibly hot and cold. Just look at how they played this year as an example.

Power Play

The PP was 2nd in the NHL for the first 16 games from October through Nov 12th. Then the next 45 games from Nov 12 to Feb 27 they were 28th in the NHL. They were also 1st in the NHL for the last 33 games, from Jan 24 to Apr 13. Then they went cold again in the playoffs.

Penalty Kill

The first 22 games of the season, the PK was 28th in the NHL from Oct 9 to Nov 25. Then the final 60 games of the season, they were 4th in the NHL, including 40 games from Nov 26 to Mar 5 where they were tied for 1st with Dallas. Then they went ice cold again in the playoffs.

If the problem with special teams was coaching, I don't think they'd be able to be among the best in the league for long stretches like they have. Similar to how if DeBoer was why the Avs lost, they wouldn't be able to beat him so often in the regular season, and dominate them at times.

If you don’t think it’s the coaching and it’s on the players then where can we get someone like Giguere calling out Shane O’Brien? IDC if it’s a player, HC or AC. Someone has got to lead.

 

[Foppa2118]

Yup. Probably Q although I share Foppa2118’s concern. BTW, more than a few Bolts fans are ready to move on from Cooper.

If they need to make a change, the best idea may be to start the year with Bednar, then if the Avs and Bolts hit a rough patch, maybe Cooper will be available.

Sakic can also coordinate this with Brisebois. I'm sure he'd love to hire Bednar.

 

[flyfysher]

Penalty Kill



If the problem with special teams was coaching, I don't think they'd be able to be among the best in the league for long stretches like they have. Similar to how if DeBoer was why the Avs lost, they wouldn't be able to beat him so often in the regular season, and dominate them at times.

But it’s the POs that matter, not the RS results. It’s like saying the team that won the President’s Trophy matters to the POs. It doesn’t.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

Armstrong and Cooper didn’t even consider Bednar as an assistant for Team Canada in the Four Nations.

They went with Tocchet, DeBoer, and Cassidy instead.

That should tell you a bit about how Bednar is viewed by some other “hockey minds.”

 

[dahrougem2]

Get Woodcroft.

F*** outta here with that

 

[Foppa2118]

But it’s the POs that matter, not the RS results. It’s like saying the team that won the President’s Trophy matters to the POs. It doesn’t.

Obviously the playoffs matter more. The regular season has the bigger sample size, so it's a better indicator of ability.

If coaching was the problem on special teams, I don't think the PP would be able to be 1st in the NHL the last 33 games, or 4th on the PK the last 60 games, including 1st for the last 40.

Maybe you need a hardass to take control of everything, and get them focused more often. But everything comes with a downside.

A coach like Bednar can help teach a team the details of the game, help guys like Nate, Landy, Mikko, and Val be the best players they can be, and help them win a Cup, but the downside may be the players get too unfocused at times, because he's not screaming at them all the time.

A hardass coach may help them get focused, but he's probably not as good at the x's and o's, and his benefit will probably be short lived, before the team tunes him out. Pick your poison.

I can see an argument that it's time for a hardass, and at this point in their window, a short lived coach may not be a big worry. But I just can't see the logic behind the "problem" being coaching or Bednar.

The main problem IMO is in the players heads.

They may or may not need to make a change, but no matter who the coach is, that's still the problem, and the players will mostly be the ones that need to figure it out themselves.

 

[forsbergavs32]

I'd be interested to see how Q does here without a tire fire of a team like he had last time. I'm not fond of the issues from the Hawks in the past, but I'd like to win.

Outside of that, I'd love for the Avs to pony up for Tocchet and bring Footer back home. Vancouver was a mess of a team and I could see Tocchet do good things here, plus we know guys like Lando, Mack, Makar respect the hell out of Footer too.

Next in line for me would be Torts, but he would have to be like 2 seasons and done. Great coach but has a shorter shelf life than most coaches. If anything, we would get some entertaining pressers out of it.

Huge drop off from there.

 

[BobRossColton]

isn't tocchet kind of a hard ass? Him and foote would be fun.

 

[flyfysher]

Obviously the playoffs matter more. The regular season has the bigger sample size so its a better indicator of ability.

If coaching was the problem on special teams, I don't think the PP would be able to be 1st in the NHL the last 33 games, or 4th on the PK the last 60 games, including 1st for the last 40.

Maybe you need a hardass to take control of everything, and get them focused more often. But everything comes with a downside.

A coach like Bednar can help teach a team the details of the game, help guys like Nate, Landy, Mikko, and Val be the best players they can be, and help them win a Cup, but the downside may be the players get too unfocused at times, because he's not screaming at them all the time.

A hardass coach may help them get focused, but he's probably not as good at the x's and o's, and his benefit will probably be short lived, before the team tunes him out. Pick your poison.

I can see an argument that it's time for a hardass, and at this point in their window, a short lived coach may not be a big worry. But I just can't see the logic behind the "problem" being coaching or Bednar.

The main problem IMO is in the players heads. No matter who the coach is, that's still the problem, and the players will mostly be the ones that need to figure it out themselves.

I didn’t think it was fair to cite the PP and PK stats from early on because there have been so many personnel changes. At the end, I get it but if they were so good on the PP and PK then what gives in the POs? Really, the Avs special teams’ performance was inexcusable. If it’s solely on the players then yeah, there may be a need for a hard ass HC as much as we’d like to think it’s only up to the players to remain focused and motivated. Being an adult doesn’t mean you can’t benefit from guidance.

 

[Foppa2118]

Armstrong and Cooper didn’t even consider Bednar as an assistant for Team Canada in the Four Nations.

They went with Tocchet, DeBoer, and Cassidy instead.

That should tell you a bit about how Bednar is viewed by some other “hockey minds.”

That's just old boys club stuff. Nothing to do with respect for hockey minds.

Tocchet and DeBoer have never won a Cup.

Tocchet's tenure in Arizona wasn't very good and he wasn't able to do much to keep that toxic dressing room together in Vancouver.

Cassidy only won a Cup a couple years ago. He never won at any other level. His tenure in Washington wasn't great, and those Boston team's underachieved a few times.

 

[flyfysher]

I'd be interested to see how Q does here without a tire fire of a team like he had last time. I'm not fond of the issues from the Hawks in the past, but I'd like to win.

Outside of that, I'd love for the Avs to pony up for Tocchet and bring Footer back home. Vancouver was a mess of a team and I could see Tocchet do good things here, plus we know guys like Lando, Mack, Makar respect the hell out of Footer too.

Next in line for me would be Torts, but he would have to be like 2 seasons and done. Great coach but has a shorter shelf life than most coaches. If anything, we would get some entertaining pressers out of it.

Huge drop off from there.

Yeah, if Cooper is unavailable then Q or Tocchet. I don’t see Torts as a viable option. Didn’t TBL crap out in the POs to the CBJ after they won the SC? I don’t recall anything about that though. Was their situation analogous to ours?

 

[forsbergavs32]

Yeah, if Cooper is unavailable then Q or Tocchet. I don’t see Torts as a viable option. Didn’t TBL crap out in the POs to the CBJ after they won the SC? I don’t recall anything about that though. Was their situation analogous to ours?

That's a good question, I'm starting to get old and don't quite remember things

 

[dahrougem2]

Yeah, if Cooper is unavailable then Q or Tocchet. I don’t see Torts as a viable option. Didn’t TBL crap out in the POs to the CBJ after they won the SC? I don’t recall anything about that though. Was their situation analogous to ours?

TB lost to Torts' Jackets - got swept, actually - then won B2B Stanley Cups.

 

[lionsDen]

I understand, and I think I blamed him for much of what you said here. Overworking the players and the line combos specifically.

I've also been the only one saying for years I believe there's a downside to his skating system, that it impacts their shooting accuracy, because they work so hard to get the puck, to generate the scoring chance, but then naturally relax when they go to shoot. I've been saying this well before this recent iteration of people wanting to fire Bednar.

I just think the main problem is the players mental struggles in the playoffs. They easily could have won despite all the criticisms on coaching. They won 3 games, and lost 3 games giving up leads in the third period. That sounds to me like they should have won 6 out of 7, but gave it away.

Regarding special teams, I just think that is mostly on the players. I've never seen a special teams unit so incredibly hot and cold. Just look at how they played this year as an example.

Power Play

The PP was 2nd in the NHL for the first 16 games from October through Nov 12th. Then the next 45 games from Nov 12 to Feb 27 they were 28th in the NHL. They were also 1st in the NHL for the last 33 games, from Jan 24 to Apr 13. Then they went cold again in the playoffs.

Penalty Kill

The first 22 games of the season, the PK was 28th in the NHL from Oct 9 to Nov 25. Then the final 60 games of the season, they were 4th in the NHL, including 40 games from Nov 26 to Mar 5 where they were tied for 1st with Dallas. Then they went ice cold again in the playoffs, and gently just looked confused and out of sorts.

If the problem with special teams was coaching, I don't think they'd be able to be among the best in the league for long stretches like they have. Similar to how if DeBoer was why the Avs lost, they wouldn't be able to beat him so often in the regular season, and dominate them at times.

I mean when you have two of the top five players on the world arguably and Mikko, you’d hope they were good on the pp

 

[flyfysher]

That's a good question, I'm starting to get old and don't quite remember things

LOL. You’re on your way to joining us seniors. I’m already old and don’t remember many things.

Seriously though, if I was arguing to keep JB then I’d point to the Bolts’ experience because they won a second SC. Regardless of COVID, the Bolts were always a tough out.

But I’m completely with you on JB’s stubbornness in keeping Necas shacked to Mack. That cannot be allowed to continue.

 

[forsbergavs32]

LOL. You’re on your way to joining us seniors. I’m already old and don’t remember many things.

Seriously though, if I was arguing to keep JB then I’d point to the Bolts’ experience because they won a second SC. Regardless of COVID, the Bolts were always a tough out.

But I’m completely with you on JB’s stubbornness in keeping Necas shacked to Mack. That cannot be allowed to continue.

At minimum the assistants need to piss off. Pratt's PK is soft as hell and Bennett's PP is way too stubborn to try anything different.

 

[Foppa2118]

I mean when you have two of the top five players on the world arguably and Mikko, you’d hope they were good on the pp

Talent alone doesn't make a good power play though. I've seen countless talented teams over the years in the NHL struggle on the power play. Especially in the playoffs.

Talent also doesn't really help you on the PK. That's all systems, awareness, and hard work.

Avs have been dominant on both the PP and the PK and have looked like absolute crap on both too.

Seems comparable to how they're able to dominate Dallas and other teams at times, but also have spurts where they don't look like themselves and let them beat them in the playoffs.

I think this team has emotional swings. They also just happen to have some players and leaders who are prone to emotional swings, and that may impact the rest of the players.

All of that is why I think the players are mostly the ones to blame, though I understand the argument that a new voice might help.

 

[lionsDen]

So I was thinking

Do we need a tenured coach

Or someone like Bednar was and go with a Carole type.

A new coach with a different style not well known or a old boys like has been mentioned here

 

[flyfysher]

Not a bad choice.

He won’t be cheap, though. The Avs like cheap head coaches.

Foote is likely to go with him as an assistant coach wherever he lands.

After the POs, just redirect some of Makar’s anticipated contract salary to Tocchet.

/s

 

[Bonzai12]

Carle is out there but I can’t imagine putting Carle in front of this team right now when you have a locker room full of vets. They’d eat him for lunch if things went bad.

 

[Avs_19]

Tocchet is a bit of a meat head, highly focused on the defensive side rather than creating offense, likes to default to "work harder", has a pretty bad track record in the NHL, and just oversaw the biggest dressing room chemistry disaster we've seen in a little while. However, Vancouver's PK has improved every year with him and they were near the top of the league this year.

Personally, I think that's a downgrade and the Avs are worse off.

F*** outta here with that

He deserves another chance!

 

[dahrougem2]

Carle is out there but I can’t imagine putting Carle in front of this team right now when you have a locker room full of vets. They’d eat him for lunch if things went bad.

They need someone who will command respect and tell the top guys to stop getting in their f***ing feelings and just go out there and play the right way.