Jamie Benn vs Mark Stone - Peak

[Adele Dazeem]

Jamie Benn was 5th in the league in takeaways in his Ross season.

Once again, when did Stone finish top ten in scoring? Because Benn did it three times in his peak, so I'm glad he takes the puck away like Datsyuk, but Datsyuk finished in the top five twice in his career at least.

Honestly, sounds like a lot of people never watched prime Jamie Benn, because he was basically everything people are liking about Stone's game, but with actual elite scoring ability and he could also beat the shit out of people.

Bolded is irrelevant. You don't mention how Benn was playing alongside Seguin (major reason why he was able to put up those points). Stone was a line-driver; carried putrid Senators teams on his shoulder. Just to clarify I think it's close, I would give the edge to Stone in terms of absolute peak; but it's damn close.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bolded is irrelevant. You don't mention how Benn was playing alongside Seguin (major reason why he was able to put up those points). Stone was a line-driver; carried putrid Senators teams on his shoulder. Just to clarify I think it's close, I would give the edge to Stone in terms of absolute peak; but it's damn close.

What exactly did he carry the Senators to? His best statistical season with them was when they had like 65 points.

In the 16-17 run he was 7th in scoring in the playoffs amongst Ottawa's forwards. Benn has been a top three scorer in every playoff run Dallas has had amongst forwards on the Stars.

It is relevant because you're bringing up defensive play which is subjective as hell. If you're going by analytics, go take a peak at prime Jamie Benn. He wasn't as good as Stone, but he was somewhat close.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Bolded is irrelevant. You don't mention how Benn was playing alongside Seguin (major reason why he was able to put up those points). Stone was a line-driver; carried putrid Senators teams on his shoulder. Just to clarify I think it's close, I would give the edge to Stone in terms of absolute peak; but it's damn close.

I'd say peak Karlsson was the one carrying those Sens teams. In fact, during that Sens' Cinderella run, Stone was disappointing while Karlsson was an absolute beast.

Stone's quickly becoming the most overrated player on HF. People are even revising history to make him appear better than he was.

 

[Regal]

Your arguments against Benn sort of sound similar to the arguments in that Crosby/Datsyuk thread for why Crosby's peak wasn't really better than Datsyuk's peak.

"Sure, his offense was a bit higher, but DEFENSE"

Not quite. Their peak offense is a different level. The greater you are at scoring the less defense matters imo. Benn was never close to that level and I think the gap between Benn and Stone and the trio and Datsyuk is much smaller. That said, I think Datsyuk was better than Crosby in the 08-09 season for example, as a good but not great offensive season from Crosby wasn't enough to create that separation.

Also, I never argued Stone was better. I said Benn was and voted for him. I just think it's a lot closer than some people are making it out to be.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not quite. Their peak offense is a different level. The greater you are at scoring the less defense matters imo. Benn was never close to that level and I think the gap between Benn and Stone and the trio and Datsyuk is much smaller. That said, I think Datsyuk was better than Crosby in the 08-09 season for example, as a good but not great offensive season from Crosby wasn't enough to create that separation.

Also, I never argued Stone was better. I said Benn was and voted for him. I just think it's a lot closer than some people are making it out to be.

Well, you can be wrong more than once in this thread then

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Not quite. Their peak offense is a different level. The greater you are at scoring the less defense matters imo. Benn was never close to that level and I think the gap between Benn and Stone and the trio and Datsyuk is much smaller. That said, I think Datsyuk was better than Crosby in the 08-09 season for example, as a good but not great offensive season from Crosby wasn't enough to create that separation.

Also, I never argued Stone was better. I said Benn was and voted for him. I just think it's a lot closer than some people are making it out to be.

I'd argue the offensive gap between peak Benn and peak Stone is bigger than you're suggesting. Keep in mind I'm talking peak Benn, a level he probably only maintained for about a 3 season stretch. But that 3 season stretch, Benn's offense relative to his peers was a lot greater than Stone's has been relative to his. Been was finishing top 2 in scoring two years in a row, while Stone's never come close to challenging for a Ross.

 

[Regal]

I'd argue the offensive gap between peak Benn and peak Stone is bigger than you're suggesting. Keep in mind I'm talking peak Benn, a level he probably only maintained for about a 3 season stretch. But that 3 season stretch, Benn's offense relative to his peers was a lot greater than Stone's has been relative to his. Been was finishing top 2 in scoring two years in a row, while Stone's never come close to challenging for a Ross.

That's why I think he's getting overrated here though. I think that was a really weak period for top line forwards so he looks better than he was just by looking at finishes. Benn wasn't close to challenging for an Art Ross in a normal year either. Crosby, Kane and McDavid were quite a bit ahead in the years before and after, and we were missing a level of Kucherov, Draisaitl, Panarin, MacKinnon types that we've had lately as well.

His seasons roughly translate to 100 points today, which if we go back to the last full season in 18-19, would have put him in a 3-way tie for 5th with Crosby and Marchand. Stone is roughly a PPG forward today, though did pace for 91 this year so it's possible he ups those numbers. It's hard to compare their totals straight up because missed time and the pandemic has thrown a wrench into Stone's games played. I also still think Benn benefitted from the team situation. I do think there's a decent gap there, which is why I went Benn, but I think under similar situations it's like 10-15 points.

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.