Player Discussion Jakub Zboril II (re-signed 2Yrs @1.1 AAV)

[BruinDust]

There's no getting around it, the numbers are tough, but however they work it out, I can't see the Bruins carrying a full 7 forwards on minimum wage. If Bergy does retire and Zacha and Coyle move up, then giving Freddie a shot at 3C is not the worst idea, nor should he prove to be that expensive compared to anyone else they could reasonably put in that spot. He was raised as a center, throw him in there for a proper shot at it and see what happens. He knows Monty's system, he's been around the Bruins for long enough, having a guy who has that familiarity could be useful if the bottom 6 ends up as full of kids and new singings/trades as seems likely. Could be a sink or swim moment for Trent. If instead they signed then dealt him I'd lose no sleep over it for all the reasons we've been discussing, but I'm still not completely opposed to one last look as long as it's handled properly.

In regards to Zboril I think at least one of Gryz or Forbort is surely going to be shown the door, and Little Z looks cheap compared to those two, same goes for Cliffy if they wanted to re-sign him. Again, could see him going, and he probably should for his own good really, but there is a pathway to keeping him for one more year if they wanted.

Neither can I. But here is the problem. Let's say that the first of the 13 contracts to go is Gryz. He'll be replaced by a guy making less money. But that savings will be needed for the 200k here, the 400k there, etc. that they'll need for those 7-8-9 guys at the bottom of the roster. The 775k minimum was a "best-case" scenario, they won't all come in at 775k. That move won't give them the space for Frederic's inevitable raise (His regular season comparables come in between 2 and 2.5 million) .If anything, that first move should get Zboril in the door. Let's say with Gryz out, they'll need to have 3 of their 7 D making peanuts. Let's say Zboril is one of them. The Gryz savings would help cover the 400k difference between Zboril and a guy at 775k. Along with a few of the bottom six forwards (whoever they are).

Now they are into a second move. The next two candidates in this scenario IMO would be Coyle and Forbort. The reason I used Gryz first is I think he's very tradeable. I don't know what the value of the return would be, might me minimal. But with his analytics, some team would bite on him.

I'm not sure if they can move Forbort or Coyle without doing what we all despise, attaching valuable assets to get their contracts out the door. If they won't give up those assets (like draft picks they cannot afford to give up now), they might be stuck with these two.

Now your into a second move to create cap space and it may have to be someone we all like a lot more than Forbort and Coyle (Ullmark? Debrusk? Carlo? Hall?).

It doesn't seem like much, but with things as tight as they are, that 1.5 to 2.0 million above 775k might be what leads to them moving on from Frederic. And with arbitration, if he gets say 2.5 million awarded, the Bruins have the mechanism to walk away and using his money above 775k on someone(s) else.

All this to use another lottery ticket gambling on a 25-26 year old Frederic finally having the lightbulb go off next spring and be a contributing performer in the playoffs.

Certainly Sweeney might work some magic and go Gryz gone, Forbort gone, Coyle gone and cap wise all is right with the world. But my gut says it will be a lot harder than that.

Sweeney needs his best summer ever here. I don't envy his position. This will be cap gymnastics at the highest order, where every 100k counts.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I wouldn't of sat Frederic at all. But he did get into 5 of the 7 games. But it wasn't Lauko who he should of displace, it was Foligno, as Frederic did displace for Game 7. Was Monty the issue really? It likely did nothing for Frederic's confidence but he still got into more games than he sat. I recall the year before in the Carolina series a unnecessary penalty that got him benched by Cassidy.

That was only because Foligno was injured in Game 6, right?

 

[BruinDust]

That was only because Foligno was injured in Game 6, right?

That wasn't my understanding. I thought it was just performance related. Foligno looked just fine late in the 3rd period of Game 6 coughing up a puck on the blueline for the tying 5-5 goal.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That wasn't my understanding. I thought it was just performance related. Foligno looked just fine late in the 3rd period of Game 6 coughing up a puck on the blueline for the tying 5-5 goal.

Pretty sure he got hurt after that.

Tying goal was a power play goal for Florida. Foligno was playing on the PK?

 

[Healthy Wrap]

I fully understand your point, but I think this playoff season, Monty messed up by sitting him. I think he played great in game 1 -- didn't bury a couple of good chances, but I chalk that up to luck more than anything.

Sitting him in game 5 for Lauko was a big mistake, IMO, as he cost the B's dearly with 2 bad penalties, one resulting in a goal, IIRC.

Could Frederic have been better in the games he played in? Sure -- but so could a lot of guys (obviously). I think Monty was really the issue in this case though.

I don't think I've seen a more mediocre player get a bigger pass from certain fans than Frederic. Last year, it was Cassidy's fault that he was benched. Now we're going back to the same excuse with Monty? Really? How about the guy just isn't that good in the playoffs. Simple as that

 

[BruinDust]

I don't think I've seen a more mediocre player get a bigger pass from certain fans than Frederic. Last year, it was Cassidy's fault that he was benched. Now we're going back to the same excuse with Monty? Really? How about the guy just isn't that good in the playoffs. Simple as that

If Zboril and Frederic weren't first round picks, no one would still be talking about them like they still have potential/room to grow, here at ages 25/26. If they have been 5th or 6th rounders, people would be screaming "why are they still here"?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't think I've seen a more mediocre player get a bigger pass from certain fans than Frederic. Last year, it was Cassidy's fault that he was benched. Now we're going back to the same excuse with Monty? Really? How about the guy just isn't that good in the playoffs. Simple as that

Or just isn't that good.

 

[Healthy Wrap]

Or just isn't that good.

Honestly, that's what I believe but didn't want to feel the wrath of the analytics crowd. "He's got one of the highest expected goals for on the team!"

 

[NDiesel]

If Zboril and Frederic weren't first round picks, no one would still be talking about them like they still have potential/room to grow, here at ages 25/26. If they have been 5th or 6th rounders, people would be screaming "why are they still here"?

It may be true, but from my view Frederic still has potential not because of his pedigree but due to his size. Look no further than Tom Wilson as a great example. Tanner Jeannot is another late bloomer, big body example, but his route was a lot different.

Wilson played well in a depth role for Washington in his first 5 seasons.

In those five seasons his career high was 35 points and 15 goals.

In his first 4 seasons in the playoffs: 41 games and 5 points. Now I get it, he's bringing the physicality in the playoffs as well, but that is a large sample size to go off of to start his career.

In that 5th season in the playoffs: 15 points in 21 games.

How's this match with TF? In his first 3 seasons (first two were 2 and 15 GP respectively) he has a career high of 31 points and 17 goals. In the first 2 playoffs he has 9 games with 0 points.

Am I saying he's going to be Tom Wilson? Hell no. But these big guys growing up dominate other players physically and so when they start coming into the NHL and realize they can't as easily dominate with their physicality they need to make adjustments and learn new ways to contribute.

I think this season and next will define the type of player TF is going to be and it could be a mistake to give up on him before at least letting him play C an entire year.

 

[Number8]

It may be true, but from my view Frederic still has potential not because of his pedigree but due to his size. Look no further than Tom Wilson as a great example. Tanner Jeannot is another late bloomer, big body example, but his route was a lot different.

Wilson played well in a depth role for Washington in his first 5 seasons.

In those five seasons his career high was 35 points and 15 goals.

In his first 4 seasons in the playoffs: 41 games and 5 points. Now I get it, he's bringing the physicality in the playoffs as well, but that is a large sample size to go off of to start his career.

In that 5th season in the playoffs: 15 points in 21 games.

How's this match with TF? In his first 3 seasons (first two were 2 and 15 GP respectively) he has a career high of 31 points and 17 goals. In the first 2 playoffs he has 9 games with 0 points.

Am I saying he's going to be Tom Wilson? Hell no. But these big guys growing up dominate other players physically and so when they start coming into the NHL and realize they can't as easily dominate with their physicality they need to make adjustments and learn new ways to contribute.

I think this season and next will define the type of player TF is going to be and it could be a mistake to give up on him before at least letting him play C an entire year.

I wouldn't worry about that. The biggest determination regarding who will fill spots on this team next year will be cost. And in fairness to TF, Boston doesn't have many bottom dollar rate potential 17 goal forwards in the system.

As far as people complaining about Frederick in the playoffs, I'd be worried about Fentanyl poisoning if I was regularly smoking that much crack.

On the list of shortfalls in this years' Bruins playoff season, TF is way way way down on that list. Is that because he was great? Sadly, no. It's just that the real problems were so glaring and so many that TF just doesn't warrant discussion.

 

[BruinDust]

It may be true, but from my view Frederic still has potential not because of his pedigree but due to his size. Look no further than Tom Wilson as a great example. Tanner Jeannot is another late bloomer, big body example, but his route was a lot different.

Wilson played well in a depth role for Washington in his first 5 seasons.

In those five seasons his career high was 35 points and 15 goals.

In his first 4 seasons in the playoffs: 41 games and 5 points. Now I get it, he's bringing the physicality in the playoffs as well, but that is a large sample size to go off of to start his career.

In that 5th season in the playoffs: 15 points in 21 games.

How's this match with TF? In his first 3 seasons (first two were 2 and 15 GP respectively) he has a career high of 31 points and 17 goals. In the first 2 playoffs he has 9 games with 0 points.

Am I saying he's going to be Tom Wilson? Hell no. But these big guys growing up dominate other players physically and so when they start coming into the NHL and realize they can't as easily dominate with their physicality they need to make adjustments and learn new ways to contribute.

I think this season and next will define the type of player TF is going to be and it could be a mistake to give up on him before at least letting him play C an entire year.

Honestly I felt Tanner Jeannot's issues in the playoffs were the exact same as Frederic. Doesn't skate well enough (Jeannot is a below-average NHL skater, much worse than Frederic which is saying something) and doesn't think the game well enough to make up for his lack of pace.

I will say, I felt the difference between 2021-22 Frederic and 2022-23 Frederic was his skating. I felt he improved on it last summer.

Like an earlier post, finding cap space for Frederic at 2 or 2.5 million is hard to do. I think you can get what he brings cheaper, which should really be the bottom line in a cap system. If he's back, he'll need to continue working on his skating in the off-season to take another step, because his hockey IQ is what it is at this point.

I wouldn't worry about that. The biggest determination regarding who will fill spots on this team next year will be cost. And in fairness to TF, Boston doesn't have many bottom dollar rate potential 17 goal forwards in the system.

As far as people complaining about Frederick in the playoffs, I'd be worried about Fentanyl poisoning if I was regularly smoking that much crack.

On the list of shortfalls in this years' Bruins playoff season, TF is way way way down on that list. Is that because he was great? Sadly, no. It's just that the real problems were so glaring and so many that TF just doesn't warrant discussion.

The problem is, Frederic isn't going to have bottom dollar salary next year. If Frederic was coming back at this year's salary, he's going nowhere. But that won't be the case.

 

[sarge88]

I don't think I've seen a more mediocre player get a bigger pass from certain fans than Frederic. Last year, it was Cassidy's fault that he was benched. Now we're going back to the same excuse with Monty? Really? How about the guy just isn't that good in the playoffs. Simple as that

I'm not a big fan of Frederic ---- but even when it happened, I'd have played him and Foligno over Lauko --- that's what I'm holding Monty accountable for.

 

[NDiesel]

I wouldn't worry about that. The biggest determination regarding who will fill spots on this team next year will be cost. And in fairness to TF, Boston doesn't have many bottom dollar rate potential 17 goal forwards in the system.

As far as people complaining about Frederick in the playoffs, I'd be worried about Fentanyl poisoning if I was regularly smoking that much crack.

On the list of shortfalls in this years' Bruins playoff season, TF is way way way down on that list. Is that because he was great? Sadly, no. It's just that the real problems were so glaring and so many that TF just doesn't warrant discussion.

I hear what you're saying about price. I just think It would be typical Bruins to go out and draft all these C prospects to try and find our next top 6 C, then not only shift them to wing when they come up, but never even give them a shot at C.

 

[Number8]

Honestly I felt Tanner Jeannot's issues in the playoffs were the exact same as Frederic. Doesn't skate well enough (Jeannot is a below-average NHL skater, much worse than Frederic which is saying something) and doesn't think the game well enough to make up for his lack of pace.

I will say, I felt the difference between 2021-22 Frederic and 2022-23 Frederic was his skating. I felt he improved on it last summer.

Like an earlier post, finding cap space for Frederic at 2 or 2.5 million is hard to do. I think you can get what he brings cheaper, which should really be the bottom line in a cap system. If he's back, he'll need to continue working on his skating in the off-season to take another step, because his hockey IQ is what it is at this point.



The problem is, Frederic isn't going to have bottom dollar salary next year. If Frederic was coming back at this year's salary, he's going nowhere. But that won't be the case.

Fair enough and a good point.

 

[NDiesel]

Honestly I felt Tanner Jeannot's issues in the playoffs were the exact same as Frederic. Doesn't skate well enough (Jeannot is a below-average NHL skater, much worse than Frederic which is saying something) and doesn't think the game well enough to make up for his lack of pace.

I will say, I felt the difference between 2021-22 Frederic and 2022-23 Frederic was his skating. I felt he improved on it last summer.

Like an earlier post, finding cap space for Frederic at 2 or 2.5 million is hard to do. I think you can get what he brings cheaper, which should really be the bottom line in a cap system. If he's back, he'll need to continue working on his skating in the off-season to take another step, because his hockey IQ is what it is at this point.



The problem is, Frederic isn't going to have bottom dollar salary next year. If Frederic was coming back at this year's salary, he's going nowhere. But that won't be the case.

If they could trust Frederic to take over that 3C spot for Coyle that would be a potential spot to save some $$. But unless Bergy/Krejci both dont come back or Coyle doesn't cost an asset to move then I dont see how they play him there.

Could a team like the Kraken who have the cap and roll 4 lines evenly be interested in a guy like Coyle? Is Freddy even good enough at C to take over for him? Not sure on either account.

 

[Number8]

I hear what you're saying about price. I just think It would be typical Bruins to go out and draft all these C prospects to try and find our next top 6 C, then not only shift them to wing when they come up, but never even give them a shot at C.

Agreed. Developing centers has not been a strong suit for Boston for a long time (drafting DK and PB was a stroke of genius though).

BruinsDust just reminded me TF is up for a raise - which may change equation.

 

[Over the volcano]

Honestly, that's what I believe but didn't want to feel the wrath of the analytics crowd. "He's got one of the highest expected goals for on the team!"

Without looking it up, name the guys on the team who had more actual goals 5v5 this season.

 

[BruinDust]

Without looking it up, name the guys on the team who had more actual goals at even strength this season.

I find it interesting that he was one of the higher goal-scorers on the team this year 5 on 5, but still couldn't get a single look on either PP unit. Says something about old Trent and what his coaches think of him, 17 goals EV or not.

 

[Over the volcano]

I find it interesting that he was one of the higher goal-scorers on the team this year 5 on 5, but still couldn't get a single look on either PP unit. Says something about old Trent and what his coaches think of him, 17 goals EV or not.

"Old Trent"

What regular player on this club is younger?

We'd be happy to pay through the nose for him if he were a FA from another organization.

 

[BruinDust]

"Old Trent"

What regular player on this club is younger?

We'd be happy to pay through the nose for him if he were a FA from another organization.

I can guarantee you I would not be.

He's a million dollar player about to get a 100% - 150% raise.

He's 25 going on 26 with minimal upside and history of disappearing when the pace picks up.

I'm still baffled on how many posters still believe in Frederic. I guess being a former 1st rounder buys you a lot of slack in fans eyes.

 

[Over the volcano]

I can guarantee you I would not be.

He's a million dollar player about to get a 100% - 150% raise.

He's 25 going on 26 with minimal upside and history of disappearing when the pace picks up.

I'm still baffled on how many posters still believe in Frederic. I guess being a former 1st rounder buys you a lot of slack in fans eyes.

Your thinking he's a million dollar player is probably just as baffling to most.

If it helps - just name the forwards on this club who scored more at 5 v 5, not hard as there were only two and they weren't playing 3rd and 4th line minutes. They're also not making 1 mil

"going on 26" ... Might as well say he's 25 going on 30.

 

[The Storm]

It may be true, but from my view Frederic still has potential not because of his pedigree but due to his size. Look no further than Tom Wilson as a great example. Tanner Jeannot is another late bloomer, big body example, but his route was a lot different.

Wilson played well in a depth role for Washington in his first 5 seasons.

In those five seasons his career high was 35 points and 15 goals.

In his first 4 seasons in the playoffs: 41 games and 5 points. Now I get it, he's bringing the physicality in the playoffs as well, but that is a large sample size to go off of to start his career.

In that 5th season in the playoffs: 15 points in 21 games.

How's this match with TF? In his first 3 seasons (first two were 2 and 15 GP respectively) he has a career high of 31 points and 17 goals. In the first 2 playoffs he has 9 games with 0 points.

Am I saying he's going to be Tom Wilson? Hell no. But these big guys growing up dominate other players physically and so when they start coming into the NHL and realize they can't as easily dominate with their physicality they need to make adjustments and learn new ways to contribute.

I think this season and next will define the type of player TF is going to be and it could be a mistake to give up on him before at least letting him play C an entire year.

The Bruins in the past have made the mistake of running young players out of town too soon. Joe Thornton, Dougie Hamilton and Tyler Seguin come too mind. Blake Wheeler as well, although the Wheeler trade did result in a cup.

I believe Trent Frederic is just maturing and coming into his own. Cam Neely comes to mind as another bigger player that took a longer time to mature. Mark my words, Frederic is going to score at least 25 goals this upcoming season. He's just entering his prime. He's 6'3" and 214 lbs. He popped in 17 goals this past year and played 79 games with the big club. Really his first full season with the big club. Keep Trent Frederic.

Same goes with Charlie McAvoy. Just entering his prime. He had major shoulder surgery before last season. Cannot give up on these young guys too early. Had the Bruins kept Seguin, they would not be staring at a major shortfall down the middle at this point in time. Just saying.......

Also the media (KDP) contributed in running Seguin and Thornton out of town. KDP should retire, he's such a loser.

 

[PB37]

I never said Frederic was a playoff choker. I said he can't skate or think the game at a playoff pace.

I never heard that about Tkachuk. His numbers in his previous playoff appearance seem fine (10 pts in 12 games, 1 series victory). It's hard to compare Tkachuk at 19-20-21 in his early playoff years to Frederic here at 25.

Although I will say something about Tkachuk. Because he's not the greatest skater either. But he's, for my money, one of the top 5 smartest forwards in league. Just knows where to be, that puck follows him like few others. There's your difference. Frederic is similar to Craig Smith (who wasn't the smartest player either) in that they don't think the game well enough defensively to be trusted killing penalties, but aren't consistent enough offensively to be used on the PP which speaks to their overall ability. I've always found guys like this hard on coaches, because it's challenging to find a legitmate role for them. If you get stretches where it's a lot of special teams, they get lost in the shuffle, then come off the bench cold which doesn't help their cause. One challenge having two Top 6 forwards kill penalties (37 and 63) is two bottom sixers are now likely only playing 5 on 5, which can make it hard for them to get into any sort of rhythm.

There's a thread on the main boards on why Tkachuk sucked in the playoffs with Calgary. He was considered to be a playoff no-show and it definitely was noticed by more than just Calgary fans.

 

[Aussie Bruin]

Neither can I. But here is the problem. Let's say that the first of the 13 contracts to go is Gryz. He'll be replaced by a guy making less money. But that savings will be needed for the 200k here, the 400k there, etc. that they'll need for those 7-8-9 guys at the bottom of the roster. The 775k minimum was a "best-case" scenario, they won't all come in at 775k. That move won't give them the space for Frederic's inevitable raise (His regular season comparables come in between 2 and 2.5 million) .If anything, that first move should get Zboril in the door. Let's say with Gryz out, they'll need to have 3 of their 7 D making peanuts. Let's say Zboril is one of them. The Gryz savings would help cover the 400k difference between Zboril and a guy at 775k. Along with a few of the bottom six forwards (whoever they are).

Now they are into a second move. The next two candidates in this scenario IMO would be Coyle and Forbort. The reason I used Gryz first is I think he's very tradeable. I don't know what the value of the return would be, might me minimal. But with his analytics, some team would bite on him.

I'm not sure if they can move Forbort or Coyle without doing what we all despise, attaching valuable assets to get their contracts out the door. If they won't give up those assets (like draft picks they cannot afford to give up now), they might be stuck with these two.

Now your into a second move to create cap space and it may have to be someone we all like a lot more than Forbort and Coyle (Ullmark? Debrusk? Carlo? Hall?).

It doesn't seem like much, but with things as tight as they are, that 1.5 to 2.0 million above 775k might be what leads to them moving on from Frederic. And with arbitration, if he gets say 2.5 million awarded, the Bruins have the mechanism to walk away and using his money above 775k on someone(s) else.

All this to use another lottery ticket gambling on a 25-26 year old Frederic finally having the lightbulb go off next spring and be a contributing performer in the playoffs.

Certainly Sweeney might work some magic and go Gryz gone, Forbort gone, Coyle gone and cap wise all is right with the world. But my gut says it will be a lot harder than that.

Sweeney needs his best summer ever here. I don't envy his position. This will be cap gymnastics at the highest order, where every 100k counts.

I think that's the nub of it - the Bruins shouldn't be making sacrifices elsewhere to keep Freddie and Zboril. But if the numbers can be worked out such that it makes economic sense to keep either of them, then there's a case to be made for doing it, especially for Frederic.

It really depends what they do with other parts of the roster. You may be right that what's required to fall into place to afford Trent makes it a long shot. But my guess is if Sweeney can retain him then, rightly or wrongly, he will. Clearly he's not a top priority, but there is value there and the GM will be reluctant to walk away from a long term project that has shown some genuine improvement and ability to perform at the top level.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Without looking it up, name the guys on the team who had more actual goals 5v5 this season.

Difficult to say. Career season to Frederic and at times looked stellar as a Jr Coyle.

On the other hand arguably held back Hall offensively and possibly Coyle due to lack of offensive talent.