BenningHurtsMySoul
Unfair Huggy Bear
Yeah, I agree that it's going too far. He's not the only reason they didn't medal.
Though of course he deserves blame for his role.
Jake Virtanen Part X: WJC 2016 RIP
- Thread starter Baby Pettersson
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Yeah, I agree that it's going too far. He's not the only reason they didn't medal.
Though of course he deserves blame for his role.
The cover and headline are likely overboard but it will sell papers...
That said, he had a horrible tournament and final game of the tournament and that is certainly fair game...19 or not. Same goes for several other players and the architects of the team.
My major concern is the stuff coming out of the canucks organizations mouths. Stuff like "his game is more suited to the pros". If it were suited to the pros he should absolutely be dominant in amateur play because he should know how to use structure to gain considerable advantage over opponents. It wasn't like he was getting penalties for hitting too hard or something. He took stupid penalties.
You can't say on one hand you'd like to use a Detroit model and have them develop at lower levels and then say you are "accelerating development" by having them in the NHL. If you truly believe the former then by doing the latter you are negatively affecting a players development. If you don't believe the former then don't bring it up in the first place. It's simply a continuation of the passing the buck to the previous regime that Benning started pumping hard last month.
Be interesting to see stats but it seems to me rushing players isn't a great way to go about things.
That said, he had a horrible tournament and final game of the tournament and that is certainly fair game...19 or not. Same goes for several other players and the architects of the team.
My major concern is the stuff coming out of the canucks organizations mouths. Stuff like "his game is more suited to the pros". If it were suited to the pros he should absolutely be dominant in amateur play because he should know how to use structure to gain considerable advantage over opponents. It wasn't like he was getting penalties for hitting too hard or something. He took stupid penalties.
You can't say on one hand you'd like to use a Detroit model and have them develop at lower levels and then say you are "accelerating development" by having them in the NHL. If you truly believe the former then by doing the latter you are negatively affecting a players development. If you don't believe the former then don't bring it up in the first place. It's simply a continuation of the passing the buck to the previous regime that Benning started pumping hard last month.
Be interesting to see stats but it seems to me rushing players isn't a great way to go about things.
Lets not get ahead of ourselves here. He'd be a hall-of-fame 4th liner or a generational healthy scratch.
GJB
Dr. Hook
- Aug 12, 2002
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I feel like he is on the path to becoming a Tom Wilson or Kyle Clifford.
A 1st or 2nd round pick rushed in their development so they morph into a role that will allow them to still play in the NHL even if it means very limited minutes. When really they should be sent down to junior to continue to work on their game. If this guy doesn't go back to WHL then he should be in the AHL next year if they hope to develop him as an offensive player.
Virtanen's decision making just seems very poor. Penalties aside at the WJC, his passing, vision on the ice and knowing when to shoot / hold the puck leave a lot to be desired. It's not close to NHL level.
When you draft a forward as high as 6th overall, you have to expect them to develop into a top 6 offensive threat, anything less is disappointing. The Canucks need to give him the best opportunity to develop, playing 8-10 minutes a night will just teach him to be a grinder.
A 1st or 2nd round pick rushed in their development so they morph into a role that will allow them to still play in the NHL even if it means very limited minutes. When really they should be sent down to junior to continue to work on their game. If this guy doesn't go back to WHL then he should be in the AHL next year if they hope to develop him as an offensive player.
Virtanen's decision making just seems very poor. Penalties aside at the WJC, his passing, vision on the ice and knowing when to shoot / hold the puck leave a lot to be desired. It's not close to NHL level.
When you draft a forward as high as 6th overall, you have to expect them to develop into a top 6 offensive threat, anything less is disappointing. The Canucks need to give him the best opportunity to develop, playing 8-10 minutes a night will just teach him to be a grinder.
Lonny Bohonos
Registered User
And not surprisingly, that was the worst looking Canadian blueline in recent memory....and the goaltending?....unless Canadian hockey starts to get serious about training and developing goaltenders, they won't win another tournament on the larger European ice....but self-flagellating 'Nucks posters will blame Virtanen for his MIA tournament, and argue he's busted as a project at 19...gimme a break.
Billy Kvcmu
Registered User
If the medias are trying to create a villain, how come it's not Blackwood? I mean good god he was awful in that game. Allowing like 2 extremely cheesy goals
I don't disagree. Plenty of "blame" to go around. In the end I don't really like to blame kids on "failing". They are kids. These things do happen and we put a stupid amount of pressure on them in this tournament. But still they can be evaluated and most players on that team had a disappointing tournament.
Why is the goaltending not getting the villain card? Honestly, it's because at this point we, as canadians, EXPECT the goaltending to be subpar. We aren't shocked or surprised when it is so it doesn't get much attention in the media. "Player plays as expected" is not a good story. But the country does need to look at goaltending development.
me2
Go ahead foot
I can only assume their logic goes like this AHL > NHL > juniors for development of these two players.
mathonwy
Positively #toxic
- Jan 21, 2008
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So...
Serious question
Who is Jake going to emulate to get better?
Who is going to teach Jake how to be a top 6 NHL level power forward?
Burr? - Burr's head is elsewhere
Higgins? - Higgins checked out in the 13-14 season
Dorsett? - Dorsett ain't teaching anyone anything.
Hansen? - Hansen is not a power forward
Sutter? - I have no idea what type of player Sutter is and I don't think Sutter knows either.
Prust???
We have no traditional power forwards like Shane Doan, Jarome Iginla, Wayne Simmonds, David Backes, Scott Hartnell, Andrew Ladd etc... on this team just like we have no traditional centers on this team.
Bo is having a hell of a time this season because of no Bonino, no Matthias and no Richardson.
And based on Jake's low hockey IQ, there's a low likelihood that Jake is going to figure it out on his own.
There is so many levels of ****ery happening right now I don't even know where to begin.
Serious question
Who is Jake going to emulate to get better?
Who is going to teach Jake how to be a top 6 NHL level power forward?
Burr? - Burr's head is elsewhere
Higgins? - Higgins checked out in the 13-14 season
Dorsett? - Dorsett ain't teaching anyone anything.
Hansen? - Hansen is not a power forward
Sutter? - I have no idea what type of player Sutter is and I don't think Sutter knows either.
Prust???
We have no traditional power forwards like Shane Doan, Jarome Iginla, Wayne Simmonds, David Backes, Scott Hartnell, Andrew Ladd etc... on this team just like we have no traditional centers on this team.
Bo is having a hell of a time this season because of no Bonino, no Matthias and no Richardson.
And based on Jake's low hockey IQ, there's a low likelihood that Jake is going to figure it out on his own.
There is so many levels of ****ery happening right now I don't even know where to begin.
Study Finland. They made a concerted effort to be a goalie factory, developed a whole science behind it and it worked, don't have it in front of me but there was a fascinating article about it years ago, they basically calculated that they don't have the talent to be competitive in the international scene, but if they have world-beating goalies, any team could have a chance. They put all their eggs in spotting good young athletes and putting them in as goalies and showering them with training and development, even studying the science of goaltending to give their goalies a training edge. And they pretty reliably put out good goalies relative to their hockey population size.
The CHL has banned import goalies from the three major junior leagues, which tells you a lot about how concerned they are with the problem of bad Canadian goaltending....seriously, despite all the hype from TSN, it's going to be increasingly difficult to win this tournament unless the goaltending improves....bad goals are just a killer....you can have the most talented and dedicated forwards and d-men in the world, but if your goaltending is sub-par you're done at the WJC.
Burrows on 1040 as I briefly listened may have hit on why he's remaining with the team....Burrows basically said it's good for him to be with the team, work hard in practice, work hard in the weight room and lose a few pounds. The 1040 guys went to recall that when he got sent to the AHL last year they were not impressed with his "game shape". And we knew that given they kept a very close watch on him this summer to the point that he was, I believe, spending some time working out with the team president!
This may still be an issue with him and if they feel they really need to control him day to day then he has to be in the NHL. On the other hand, you don't really want to be having to do that for your 6th overall draft pick.
This may still be an issue with him and if they feel they really need to control him day to day then he has to be in the NHL. On the other hand, you don't really want to be having to do that for your 6th overall draft pick.
mathonwy
Positively #toxic
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Not exactly uncommon for a 19 year old. You'd like them to be able to be workout warriors on their own, but there's a large percentage that aren't. I do think it would be good for him to be around players like the Sedins to learn how pros approach the game and fitness.
And I want to make it clear "lose a few pounds" came directly from Burrows in my recollection. Wasn't pontificating on the part of the hosts.
What he said:
"I think Jake is a great kid. He has a bright future ahead of him. He's going to be a solid player for a long time with this team and I'm hoping he's going to come here and keep working hard in practice, work hard in the gym and maybe lose a few pounds and make sure he's going to be a big part of this team for a long time"
http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040-i-1410/burrows-canucks-need-to-take-advantage-of-homestand-1.417778
You're correct it's not unusual for these kids to need help getting to an NHL level of fitness. ON the other hand you'd hope you wouldn't need to be day to day hands on either (not saying they are with Virtanen but it does seem like they are).
Rex Banner
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- Aug 22, 2013
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"lose a few pounds" was actually 20 pounds. Unlike some junior teammates, he skipped the fitness sessions.
From an interview back in August:
Sun: Another of your elite prospects, Jake Virtanen, is still with Team Canada. Is he having the summer he needs to have to challenge for NHL playing time next season?
Benning: He’s having a good summer. He’s been working out hard. When he showed up in Utica (for the AHL playoffs), he was 228 pounds. He’s down to 210 now. He has bought into doing the work off the ice and watching his diet and giving himself every opportunity he can to make our team.
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...ard+Benning/11268918/story.html#ixzz3wJajpmJh
I was really hoping for Dal Colle to be honest but he doesnt look to good either right now. Benning even said it was MDC or JV for him, that doesnt make look Jim any better right now though.
biturbo19
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- Jul 13, 2010
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I think that's a valid concern, and probably a big part of what seems to be steering management away from sending him back to Calgary. Unfortunately.
It may sound like "excuse-making", but i think there's a real underlying truth to the concerns over the way Calgary did/would likely continue to "develop" Virtanen.
The reality i think, is that if Calgary were to get Virtanen back...they'd be plenty content to just slot him in on an island on a "2nd line" where they know he can score at a 40g pace or whatever largely by himself, playing that "instinctual style" without really "growing" his game at all. And those goals, they know will help them win games.
I just don't have a lot of confidence that the Hitmen are a strong "developmental" organization, for Virtanen at least. Part of that is on Jake for not being entirely self-sufficient in his development i guess
...But the London Knights with a track record of strong development priorities in addition to the winning, the Hitmen ain't. I definitely see the concern mentioned here, if Jake were to go back to the Hitmen - he'll end up following the path of least resistance to his 20g or whatever, from a "2nd offensive option line", and that's probably just going to be more of the same and not a lot of "growth".Unfortunately, the Hitmen have their claws into him and have good reason to want him back to score goals for them in a playoff push, any which way he can do it. They have no particularly vested interest in working extensively with Jake to expand his game, when they can already get the goals they're seeking out of him "as is". If it were like the Draisaitl situation last year, where the Raiders were out of it and plenty open to trading away someone who could help them win...it'd be an easy swap and an easy decision. But that's not the case.
I think it kind of leaves them stuck between a rock and a hard place with Virtanen now. The NHL isn't a great option, he's not going to get the minutes and the opportunity to explore outside of his comfort zone and get creative - but they'll have direct control over what they have him working on and trying to develop in his game on and off the ice. The Hitmen aren't a great option, though he'd get the minutes, there's a real fear that very little "growth" would be effectively nurtured, and they'd be relinquishing the ability to teach, monitor, and steer his off-ice training as well (which was a noted problem that seemed to frustrate Benning when Jake showed up in Utica "overweight" and not trained "properly").
Cruddy situation.
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