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Jagr vs S. Stevens in their primes

MartyOwns said:
seriously. devils fans are treating 'scaring the piss' and 'intimidating' as these huge metrics....yet only devils fans recognize this. that should tell you something.

ok, jagr forced stevens to concentrate all of his efforts on him which you could argue was a detriment to the devils play (as i noted during the cherry picked penguins series a few pages back). that sort of stuff is so subjective and ridiculous
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This is all subjective. But if you are old enough to be a diehard fan of the Devils before and after Scott Stevens (and I was in attendance at Game One in 1982 at the age of 15), then you can get a much better sense of the great many "intangibles" he brought to the franchise. He was one of the greatest Captains to ever play this or any sport. And we went from complete joke (a "Mickey Mouse team") to champions.

So to ask an old school Devils fan if they would trade that for more scoring, the answer is "no".

There are no graphs, metrics, or numerical arguments that would change that opinion.

In a complete vacuum, away from the seismic change in our team's fortunes, Jagr is a fine choice. He has epic numbers. And dominated the league offensively in his peak.

But I would not risk the Three Cups and total vindication for my fandom for any alternate reality.
 
JimEIV said:
But you can't even remotely related it to critical wins. We aren't talking random December games here.

And that is a apart of my problem with the accumulation of points to tell a story, they really don't...A 5 points night in 1993 against a brand new expansion team doesn't get filtered or weighted does it? That could literally be 5% of the output of an Art Ross winner..... A team in a terrible division who gets to beat up on 4 soft teams like Montreal and Boston did for the good part 5 decades or Edmonton did for the entire 1980's is never really questioned. What did Winnipeg do for Gretzky and Kurri's stats during that time? Whooof.
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Jagr had some dominating playoff performances. He did it against us in 1999.

Jagr is 5th all-time in playoff points.

And although I hate focusing on GW/OT goals because of how random they are, Jagr scored a ton of those too. Isn't he the all-time leader in OT goals?
 
ThePSEGPowerPoster said:
Here's the problem -

Where Jagr could load up on points against horrible teams, Stevens couldn't help the Devils defense stat pad similarly against poor offensive teams. You can't hold teams to less than 0 goals.

Not to mention there's no stat that allows us to isolate how many goals were scored when Stevens was on the ice ES in his prime. So many factors here that you can't quantify.
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You do realize that Jagr played in the same division as the Devils for his prime right? He had to play against the very same defensive powerhouse Devils, along with the very strong Flyers.

Jagr was never the type of player to pad stats, his clutch numbers are proof of this. He is the all-time regular season OT goals leader, regular season game winning goals leader, he is top 5 in the playoffs in both OT and game winning goals as well.

If you want to talk about not padding stats, look no further than Jagr's 7 Pts game as a Capital against the Panthers in 2003. He scored 7 Pts in just 14 minutes (2 periods) and sat out the entire 3rd period. His team would win the game 12-2. They were actually up 7-0 when he sat down. What's to say he doesn't break the 10 Pts game record?

Jagr barely scored any empty net goals in his career and for all his goals, he only has 11 (correct me if I'm wrong) hattricks in his career. The Penguins were never good enough during his prime for Jagr to be padding stats, they weren't blowing away teams 10-0. So Jagr's points directly led to Penguins' wins. During his 127 Pts season for example, Jagr had 69 games of a total 81 games in which he registered a point. He had one 5 points game, six 4 points games. That season was Jagr at his best.
 
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JimEIV said:
But you can't even remotely related it to critical wins. We aren't talking random December games here.

And that is a apart of my problem with the accumulation of points to tell a story, they really don't...A 5 points night in 1993 against a brand new expansion team doesn't get filtered or weighted does it? That could literally be 5% of the output of an Art Ross winner..... A team in a terrible division who gets to beat up on 4 soft teams like Montreal and Boston did for the good part 5 decades or Edmonton did for the entire 1980's is never really questioned. What did Winnipeg do for Gretzky and Kurri's stats during that time? Whooof.
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Jagr played in the toughest divison of hockey at the time. The Big Bad Flyers and the trap Devils were in the same divison.

Also Jagr was the one player other than Hasek that made opposing teams change their approach along with their defensive tactics to try and contain him. You Devils fans should be aware of the shadowing assignments Holik, Langenbrunner and Stevens had on Jagr. They were told to shadow his every move, empede him even if it was illegal and don't let him beat you.

That is the type of impact Jagr had on the rest of the NHL. He was the hardest player to play against.

Some players beat you with speed, others with size and strength, others with skill. Jagr could beat you with all of that.
 
MartyOwns said:
seriously. devils fans are treating 'scaring the piss' and 'intimidating' as these huge metrics....yet only devils fans recognize this. that should tell you something.

ok, jagr forced stevens to concentrate all of his efforts on him which you could argue was a detriment to the devils play (as i noted during the cherry picked penguins series a few pages back). that sort of stuff is so subjective and ridiculous
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It wasn't only that. His nickname was 'Dad'. That should be enough to understand what he brought to the team as far as leadership was concerned.

And you're completely wrong that only Devils fans recognize this. I had a bunch of Leafs fans stop me while on vacation when they noticed my Devs hat just to tell me that 'Stevens was a beaut, eh... and LouLams too...'

He shows up on just about every teams' message board at some point, if defensemen are being discussed.

I saw a Habs fan post that outside of an angry Larry Robinson, absolutely no defenseman since has had the same on-ice presence that Stevens had - and I completely agree with that statement.
 
I don't know if memory serves me correctly but, in 95, didn't the Devils shut down Jagr, the LOD line, and the Wings high powered offense?

We didn't have any special assignments. We just trapped.

I might be wrong but I don't remember anything but a bunch of crying about the trap.
 
livewell68 said:
You do realize that Jagr played in the same division as the Devils for his prime right? He had to play against the very same defensive powerhouse Devils, along with the very strong Flyers.

Jagr was never the type of player to pad stats, his clutch numbers are proof of this. He is the all-time regular season OT goals leader, regular season game winning goals leader, he is top 5 in the playoffs in both OT and game winning goals as well.

If you want to talk about not padding stats, look no further than Jagr's 7 Pts game as a Capital against the Panthers in 2003. He scored 7 Pts in just 14 minutes (2 periods) and sat out the entire 3rd period. His team would win the game 12-2. They were actually up 7-0 when he sat down. What's to say he doesn't break the 10 Pts game record?

Jagr barely scored any empty net goals in his career and for all his goals, he only has 11 (correct me if I'm wrong) hattricks in his career. The Penguins were never good enough during his prime for Jagr to be padding stats, they weren't blowing away teams 10-0. So Jagr's points directly led to Penguins' wins. During his 127 Pts season for example, Jagr had 69 games of a total 81 games in which he registered a point. He had one 5 points game, six 4 points games. That season was Jagr at his best. So
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Goals..Goals, Goals, assist, points...Got it.

But my question is how do value or quantify say the Lindros hit, the Kozlov hit, the Kariya hit, the Domi, Adams and Thomas hits, the Francis and Willis hits...How do those things factor?


Because it almost sounds like they don't in your book.

I'm talking about real events that happened and are just as valid as goals (more so if you ask me) in my opinion...These are not some abstract ideas like leadership or intimidation.
 
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also - I've only played rec league hockey, but even there... it makes a BIG difference if you have a guy on your team that has that kind of presence - especially in a physical game, and if your good players are getting pushed around.

I've seen some tough guys on the other team simply take the starch out of anything we've got going just by being on the ice.

Psychologically you just get beat.
 
JimEIV said:
Goals..Goals, Goals, assist, points...Got it.

But my question is how do value or quantify say the Lindros hit, the Kozlov hit, the Kariya hit, the Domi, Adams and Thomas hits, the Francis and Willis hits...How do those thing factor?


Because it is almost sounds like they don't in your book.

I'm talking about real events that happened and are just as valid as a goal (more so if you ask me) in my opinion...These not some abstract ideas like leadership or intimation.
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Maybe we can agree that Jagr would win the computer simulation of hockey? :sarcasm:
 
I still want to know the quantitative value of

the Lindros hit,
the Kozlov hit,
the Kariya hit,
the Domi, Adams and Thomas hits,
the Francis and Willis hits.

And what is the value as a whole when ranking a player from a historical perspective...

Or if not, why those events don't matter. Or why they aren't as important as a points?
 
JimEIV said:
I still want to know the quantitative value of

the Lindros hit,
the Kozlov hit,
the Kariya hit,
the Domi, Adams and Thomas hits,
the Francis and Willis hits.

And what is the value as a whole when ranking a player from a historical perspective...

Or if not, why those events don't matter. Or why they aren't as important as a points?
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Of coarse those hits, the intimidation, and the ability to shut down matter. If this was a points only discussion it wouldn't be a discussion.
 
devilsblood said:
Of coarse those hits, the intimidation, and the ability to shut down matter. If this was a points only discussion it wouldn't be a discussion.
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Of course they matter... that is why he was a first ballot HoFer....but I need the bean counters to tell me what the value is....it's easy to count goals and assist to prove dominance but do these things not count as dominance? Do they not matter at the end of the day?

Not Bourque, not Coffey, not Lidstrom...hell not even Gretzky or Lemieux have as many pivotal moments as Scott Stevens....does that not count for anything?
 
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I don't see the need for an argument. Some people prefer to build a team with a dominant defenseman. Others prefer a dominant forward. It's a personal preference more than it is proving who is better.
 
apice3 said:
I don't see the need for an argument. Some people prefer to build a team with a dominant defenseman. Others prefer a dominant forward. It's a personal preference more than it is proving who is better.
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I would tend to agree with you if it weren't for a whole lot of people who believe their science is the way to judge a player and their place in history.... this is more than opinion it is a group that believe mathematics can predict outcomes or judge the past based on an algorithm without have ever seeing a game.
 
Here's the way I always looked at it when it comes to forwards vs. D-men. Top D-men plan their shifts to face top forwards. Top forwards try to plan their shifts to avoid top D-men. Take that however you want.

I take Stevens ahead of Jagr, but I understand why people would take Jagr ahead of Stevens. I just feel like if you take two 20 man teams, all with 20 average players, and on Team A you replace an average player with Jagr and on Team B you replace an average player with Stevens, the team with Stevens is going to win.
 
I'm biased to hell and back. Stevens any day if the week, prime or today's NHL.

I'm still happy we signed Jagr.
 
apice3 said:
Here's the way I always looked at it when it comes to forwards vs. D-men. Top D-men plan their shifts to face top forwards. Top forwards try to plan their shifts to avoid top D-men. Take that however you want.

I take Stevens ahead of Jagr, but I understand why people would take Jagr ahead of Stevens. I just feel like if you take two 20 man teams, all with 20 average players, and on Team A you replace an average player with Jagr and on Team B you replace an average player with Stevens, the team with Stevens is going to win.
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I think I proposed this hypothetical a few days ago and that's the way I saw it too.
 
JimEIV said:
I still want to know the quantitative value of

the Lindros hit,
the Kozlov hit,
the Kariya hit,
the Domi, Adams and Thomas hits,
the Francis and Willis hits.

And what is the value as a whole when ranking a player from a historical perspective...

Or if not, why those events don't matter. Or why they aren't as important as a points?
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The answer is 72.
 
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