maybe i'm an idiot, but i still dont see how your argument (opinion lol) relates to stevens as better in his prime. i see a lot of 'his captaincy was never in doubt' and 'time machine cup scenarios'. i'm not being an ass for once, just asking you to clarify if you would, mr. dufresne if you please.
would we have won 3 cups with jagr instead of stevens? personally, i think thats impossible to answer. would the devils have played a completely different game under JL with jagr in the lineup? if we had jagr, and a 'stevens-lite' (again, think weber) would we still have won 3 cups? maybe the point youre driving at is just that- its impossible to answer the question. i'd love to have that clarified, as i agree with your views 99% of the time
Bingo.
This would all be better with a white russian but ok... I'll indulge.
How does one debate the value of a rock vs a tree? Offensive stats are not the basis for comparing the "peak" performance of a Defender to a Forward. Top 10 lists by position are not valid imo because those again, always favor offensive stats rather than true "domination" or any real measure of mastery of their jobs as players at their respective, and very much contradicting, positions. Using pts (and the argument keeps getting thrown up he was the top 5 scorer, would have been 3 if he'd not played elsewhere to which I could say well Stevens still had a good 5 years left in the tank but he chose to be with his family... uh, oh there's that again...) to somehow separate a guy who's job it was to score from a guy who's job it wasn't. If you were to create a hierarchy of intrinsic value for a theoretical team what would you list as the default values?
1) Starting Goalie
2) #1 Center
3) #1 Defender
4) #1 Winger
or would it be more like
1) #1 Center
2) #1 Winger
3) #2 Winger
4) #1 Defender
What - your list is different than mine? Hmmm that's gonna be a problem.
This exercise in itself is a waste of time because what are the attributes of those players? Centers don't just take faceoffs, wingers don't just score, defenders don't just hit. The "intangibles" of the player and his role become too numerous to define. It's like asking to define DNA without using genetic code, or describe how carrot cake tastes using only numbers - it's restrictive by nature.
How can anyone declare unequivocally that any one player was the best at his own position over his peers let alone argue the best goalie ever was better than the best winger ever? It's an impossibility to define in fact. You can support the opinion with evidence, comparisons, scenarios, etc... but in the end we're debating the head to head "peak" value of two players that don't even rank #1 in their respective positions by the player's biggest supporters (I think... not entirely sure but at least not by me) and the criteria being used are not universally accepted let alone "true" measures by any means other than perception.
So once you have to let go of any "absolute criteria" it becomes a philosophical debate. Ever read about Plato and the forms? The perfect but unattainable form of any and everything? There exists a perfect circle but you can never draw it? I think that's the bottom line here. Neither player is perfect in every sense and as soon as you have admitted flaws, everything becomes relative to the observer. You can construct indexes using stats and weighting to compare them but the stats and weighting are assigned based on an assumed value that is biased by how you construct them and personally value each category but your set of inputs is limited again only by what is tracked in stats which is not every aspect of a game. It's flawed. Just like this entire thread, and just like any attempt to declare anything in absolute terms regarding opinion. I told Semak to let this debate run it's course when it cropped up in the Jagr thread because it would have a bounty of not only laughs but facepalms and everything in between. We might as well be debating who is better - basement or ceiling cat?
So to me - I like rocks more than trees today and you're obviously not a golfer.
now let me off this ride, I'm going to be sick (and sorry for getting all trippy and philosophical but I only got 3 hours of sleep last night in about 20 minute segments and this coffee is doing NOTHING).
