Player Discussion Jacob Trouba
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KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
He's definitely improved defensively this season (like everyone on the team) but his offense has fallen off a cliff. He has a heavy inaccurate slapshot and thats his only weapon. he'll be putting up Staal/ Girardi level offense during his time here, i'm sorry for 8 million per thats terrible.
Kreider for as hot and cold as he's been is still our top goal scorer
Kreider for as hot and cold as he's been is still our top goal scorer
There is a lot more to being considered a top pairing defenseman than points. When Trouba was obtained, he was viewed as an excellent #2, not a #1. That is largely exactly what he has been. His usage allowed for Fox and Lindgren to find their games last year and his presence with Miller is what allowed for K'Andre to find his game and not feel pressure to be perfect.
Harbour Dog
Registered User
That's all true, but he still isn't an $8M defenseman. I think that's what most people that take issue with him are looking at.
At the time of the deal, that was the market rate for top pairing defensemen. I have no problem paying top pairing defensemen what they are worth, no matter how many points they put up.
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
he's an important piece and glad to have him, but he's way overpaid. Even in pre-COVID terms. How good must Winnipeg's PP be that he scored 50 points once
Harbour Dog
Registered User
It was okay teetering on a slight overpayment at the time, yes.
But in this moment, it is a bad contract. People are going to be upset about not getting appropriate value from that money, even if he does bring a bunch of positives. Positives that should be magnified come playoffs.
Also, Kreider took a hometown discount on his contract, but if Gorton had seen the flat cap coming, no way does he sign either of them to their current deals. I think it's pretty legitimate for people to want to explore ways to get that cap space back.
Personally, I think Trouba is too important right now to just ditch; but an $8M defenseman he is not.
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Trouba's 5v5 scoring is actually better this year than his 50 point season (the scoring rates anyway, hard to compare part of a shortened season to a full season) he just isn't getting prime powerplay time anymore. That year he had 18 PP points in 168 PP1 minutes, this year he has 1 in 55 minutes mostly in chaotic mop up time.
Either way he's helping drive offense even if he's not wildly productive himself.
And he's been better defensively. And much better on the PK.
Its a weird year for Trouba, just like its been a weird year for the whole team. He's improved offensively and defensively. AND he's done it while playing with a very raw rookie. But he's also doing in from the 2nd pair which means his minutes are a bit easier. And on top of all that there is Covid and all the uncertainty that has brought.
So yeah I'm not sure if "borderline great offensively and average defensively 2nd pair D" adds up to being a "great #2 D-man" or worth his cap hit or the almost 10% of the cap when he signed or whatever but he's definitely improved.
Next year when things are (hopefully) back to normal will be a good test.
Either way he's helping drive offense even if he's not wildly productive himself.
And he's been better defensively. And much better on the PK.
Its a weird year for Trouba, just like its been a weird year for the whole team. He's improved offensively and defensively. AND he's done it while playing with a very raw rookie. But he's also doing in from the 2nd pair which means his minutes are a bit easier. And on top of all that there is Covid and all the uncertainty that has brought.
So yeah I'm not sure if "borderline great offensively and average defensively 2nd pair D" adds up to being a "great #2 D-man" or worth his cap hit or the almost 10% of the cap when he signed or whatever but he's definitely improved.
Next year when things are (hopefully) back to normal will be a good test.
I mean his contract is "bad" in the sense that he's not really worth what he's making, but there are degrees of bad. This isn't Staal or Girardi where they're making $6M but playing like AHL players, or a Lucic situation or anything. He's still a very useful player both in terms of his own abilities and in terms of his impact on the rest of the lineup. If we was able to maintain this level of play for the next several years, I'd say all in all that things worked out.
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Who cares about his points? At last check top pairing defenseman is not dependent on how many points that you have
NO ONE could have predicted covid or a flat cap,
E-Train
Registered User
Maybe overpaid by $1M, I’m still glad to have him back there. Plays tough and nasty, great partner for Miller. Still only in his age 26 season.
Need that balance of size to go with the true offensive talents we have now and to come on the backend.
Need that balance of size to go with the true offensive talents we have now and to come on the backend.
Thats basically it.
People looked at his numbers and forgot that they were Powerplay numbers. His defense has been solid most of the year, he's been playing slightly under what his contract is, but his game is tailor made for the playoffs, and having that will be very important as our team improves the next few years.
We knew we were likely going to have to overpay slightly for him, and thats exactly what happened.
He's also not 34 years old, and barely playing nhl hockey. His contract will absolutely be tradable once his NMC expires, and if we have a log jam and he's not in our "top 4" due to someone like schneider, then he's likely gone.
Most of the year, yes. He's had a real good season.
Remember how many posts we read last summer that talked about how all he needed was a real partner? Problem solved.
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
points matter if you're being paid like an elite player. Pelech and Pulock are top pair guys but they don't produce a ton and they get paid accordingly.
Trouba is a good player. But its a bad contract and gonna get even worse once we have to pay guys like Fox who actually command star salaries
Trouba has been a lot better this year. He’s had some games, like these two against NJ and our first Caps game, where he was flat out excellent.
To me, the biggest disconnect in how people view him is less about his salary and more about the quality of defenseman he is. A realistic evaluation of Trouba this year to me is:
- Plays ~22 minutes a night
- Gets above average to somewhat challenging match-ups (I don’t have the data here, but I’d imagine his quality of competition is decently lower than last year)
- Rock solid defense. Hardly “human eraser” dominant, but he eats reliable minutes
- Brings minimal offense
- Physical presence
- Good leadership. Especially with his partner, Miller
- Is good for a backbreaking mistake every few games
To me, that’s a solid-good #3 defenseman. Right about where he fits into our depth chart currently. Calling him a top pairing defenseman is a stretch. I think if you price out that type of player, you’re looking at $5.5 million as a free agent. I don’t have an identical comparison to Trouba, but from a value standpoint, the above points sounds similar to Stralman. His free agent contracts were less than Trouba in absolute terms (factor in the tax situation in Florida and it’s probably around $5.5).
So his current contract is a significant overpayment, but one that’s manageable if he can keep it up. However, I’m still very skeptical, in a full season against every NHL team, that he can keep it up.
To me, the biggest disconnect in how people view him is less about his salary and more about the quality of defenseman he is. A realistic evaluation of Trouba this year to me is:
- Plays ~22 minutes a night
- Gets above average to somewhat challenging match-ups (I don’t have the data here, but I’d imagine his quality of competition is decently lower than last year)
- Rock solid defense. Hardly “human eraser” dominant, but he eats reliable minutes
- Brings minimal offense
- Physical presence
- Good leadership. Especially with his partner, Miller
- Is good for a backbreaking mistake every few games
To me, that’s a solid-good #3 defenseman. Right about where he fits into our depth chart currently. Calling him a top pairing defenseman is a stretch. I think if you price out that type of player, you’re looking at $5.5 million as a free agent. I don’t have an identical comparison to Trouba, but from a value standpoint, the above points sounds similar to Stralman. His free agent contracts were less than Trouba in absolute terms (factor in the tax situation in Florida and it’s probably around $5.5).
So his current contract is a significant overpayment, but one that’s manageable if he can keep it up. However, I’m still very skeptical, in a full season against every NHL team, that he can keep it up.
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Oh come on, Pelech signed his deal after he had played 54 games across two seasons. Before his current deal Pulock had played three full years and only 16 games across his first two. Trouba signed his deal after six full years and was paid for seven years of unrestricted free agency. I understand the point you're trying to make but that's a terrible comp; it's like when people compare UFA deals to RFA deals.
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Harbour Dog
Registered User
Obviously not. Why do you think everything is an attack on the organization?
I like Gorton a lot and I'm like a 5-6/10 on Quinn.
I'm just stating that Trouba at $8M is a bad contract. That's all. I'm not even saying I want to get rid of Trouba; I think that at least for the next year or two, he is a very important part of that lockerroom and D-corp.
Are you saying that he is currently worth $8M with the cap situation and his performance? Because I assumed you weren't saying that, but maybe you are?
Being a top pair defenseman means a lot more than being the top point producer. Playing, you know defense, actually matters.
I am saying that at the time of the deal, the contract was market rate. Judging it now through the lenses of a flat cap seems a tad disingenuous to me.
Harbour Dog
Registered User
I would argue that it was a little above market rate, but nothing egregious.
We agree that the contract wasn't a poor one at the time, anyway. Do we also agree that Trouba is not currently worth that contract though?
Because that's what it comes down to. It isn't Gorton's 'fault', but it is something that will affect the rest of his moves for quite some time. And as long as that bad contract affects the decisions we have to make on our kids as they come out of ELCs, then there is going to be an increasing amount of frustration about it.
It's really too bad. I like Trouba as a player and as a leader, but my goodness that contract is going to look terrible when we're trying to get Fox, Kakko, Lafreniere, Shesty, Kravtsov, etc., under the cap.
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