Ok sorry that was gruffer than I wanted it to be. I agree our D is kind of weak (and weaker without Wiz). We have a lot of middling guys. But we're especially weak on the right-side, IMO.
Rumor: Jackets trying to move Wisniewski
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Ok sorry that was gruffer than I wanted it to be. I agree our D is kind of weak (and weaker without Wiz). We have a lot of middling guys. But we're especially weak on the right-side, IMO.
And dealing our one "premier" right side guy only exacerbates that problem.
It also sucks that all of the top defenseman in this draft shoot left... But any of Werenski, Provorov, or Kylington would help boost the D immensely, even if it isn't an immediate impact. If we pick in the 7-9 range especially, I think we should target a defenseman unless one of Strome or Marner falls.
It also sucks that all of the top defenseman in this draft shoot left... But any of Werenski, Provorov, or Kylington would help boost the D immensely, even if it isn't an immediate impact. If we pick in the 7-9 range especially, I think we should target a defenseman unless one of Strome or Marner falls.
Not completely sure what to make of this. The reality was that we were probably going to have to move one of the top 4. Not sure I'd make anymore out of this than that. A numbers game.
I'm not even sure they are shopping him. I take these reports as suspect until we get more evidence. Too many times there is nothing to them. I certainly hold no stock in anything AP says on the rumor side of things.
I'm not even sure they are shopping him. I take these reports as suspect until we get more evidence. Too many times there is nothing to them. I certainly hold no stock in anything AP says on the rumor side of things.
Xoggz22
Registered User
No problem. We see things differently. I don't see him running the PP as much as I see the PP being run to set him up to bomb it from the point or the circle. Certainly I'm no expert. I just don't see him as the brains of the PP more a huge piece that makes it work. Murray, to me, is a guy that will eventually QB a PP. His vision is amazing (when playing mind you.).
Relevant
Yeah, good for him to hurt the team.
"But he seems so good for the room"....Or maybe it is "just" for hockey reasons. Either way, some people that are sure they're right, are wrong.
Forever? He's clearly gone after his contract is up anyway. In 4 years we can have the, "Worse signing? Wiz or Horton?" Thread. Wiz hasn't helped the team accomplish anything more than Horton.
Again, good for him? Loyalty to the team? High level?
Pretty much. Cant believe most people are still on Team Wisniewski.
Has Wiz helped or hurt the team in this process? Still cant get over the "high loyalty" comment.
And then, this. What exactly do you "love" from this? James Wisniewski is a defenseman. His 1st job on the ice is to defend. He's terrible at defense. That is why the "****ing" front office is looking to move him. And that's also why you have quotes coming out like, "I/he need(s) to be better", and, "If any team wants him".
He is a good offensive d man. He is NOT 1 of the best PP QB's in the league. Not even close. Theres's at least 20 teams that have a better "PP QB" and some have multiple guys. And look at how much better the team is as a whole, compared to where we were when he was brought in. Jesus, he's not out there 1 on 4 on the powerplay. The cap hit he has as an offensive (and terribly defensive) defenseman on a team "full" of offensive d men, currently has a negative impact on the CBJ, bottom line. The team is completely different from 2012.
People seem to ignore the fact he's gone in 2 years no matter what. I don't think the return is gonna be anywhere close to what would make people happy in here. With how he's treated the situation(or whats reported anyway) I'm back to my old buyout/waiver feeling's. 5.5 million cap dollars is more valuable than this punk.
This. Good shot, decent passing. That's it. Can't skate or think on the ice.
So the FO is overconfident with the defensive core by attempting to trade to highest paid guy back there?? How is it that you guys seem to be very disappointed in the defense as a whole and yet you guys act as if Wiz has no impact on this??
I don't see the vision and passing at all. And how long are you gonna use that finger as an excuse for him? Murray/Johnson/Savard/even Cannauton all have the ability to be PP Qb's, Wiz is a PP "specialist".
For the hate Boll gets because of his salary I want to remind everybody again that Wisniewski is our highest paid defenseman. That's a fact. If you want to believe that he's our best defenseman and that our PP wont be able to manage without him, fine. That doesn't mean its anywhere close to being a fact.
Enjoy the return.
I do think we need another premiere defensive prospect, but I don't see any of the defenseman in this draft, except for Hanifin, even getting a taste of the NHL in the next two seasons. I tend to kind of be against drafting defensemen so high unless they show top end offensive ability. I think its just too hard to project the stay at home/physical types (Gudbranson, Schenn, Reinhart - not that he has busted or anything, Bogosian, MacIlrath). I would prefer to stay away from those early on. But I digress:
I also think there is something to be said here about us being much stronger on left D than right D, but I also think we are shopping Wiz based on 1) Possibly getting the highest return from him compared to our other D, and 2) Connauton has shown he can score from the point on the PP. So I think it is more shopping our PP guy because we have a good option there. I know he isnt a right shot, but he could be our #6 defenseman while being our pp specialist kinda. I could see us trying to build a bigger, sturdier top 4, while leaving the bottom pair for the specialists. Wiz's salary kind of makes it hard to build that way. Not that we NEED to move him at all - and I love that he is trying to make it hard to trade him. We havent had enough people fighting to stay here.
I want to remind everybody again that Wisniewski is our highest paid defenseman. That's a fact. If you want to believe that he's our best defenseman and that our PP wont be able to manage without him, fine. That doesn't mean its anywhere close to being a fact.
Enjoy the return.
Actually he's tied with Johnson this season and will be tied with Tyutin and JJ next season (if he stays). The following season he's dirt cheap. You've already paid most of the cost up front. Financially there isn't much of a reason to move him.
I find your post pretty funny; aren't you the only trying to defend your position on AA based on no facts at all? Just your personal "scouting"?
The reality is that his numbers, even this season, make his salary and cap hit a relative bargain. A 5.5 million cap hit (5 million salary) is pretty good for what he brings. He is the most productive defensmen per minute of ice time. #4 is the next closest; although I wouldn't put him in the top 4 yet. Savard isn't anywhere close. JJ is the next closest. The only right handed shot in there is Savard and he has a long way to go get to Wiz's level of production.
Would we survive without him? Sure. Having said that, we have more lefties than righties. Tyutin might make more sense if we're going to move one.
Golo and Prout are right handed shots; although neither is showing much on offense right now.
That's the way it worked last year, when Wiz was our best weapon. This year Wiz usually fakes to tee up Joey, and Foligno and Hartnell are stepping up down low.
Until he gets his shot back.
Here's another fact: Wiz's average salary in the next two years is $4m, about 45% of PK Subbans, who had roughly the same production last year.
I knew it was coming
I won't argue his defensive merits, he's average on a good day on the back end. But you have acknowledge his prowess with the puck, especially on the man advantage. He was 3rd in PP points last season, league wide. Think about the guys he beat out in that category:
Weber
Byfuglien
Subban
Keith
Markov
OEL
Pietrangelo
Doughty
This has been a bad year for him and he's 20th.
Point is, he's producing at or above the level of those elite blue liners. Blah's right, he's going to be a bargain on the back end of this contract. We won't replace his production for his cost, unless one of our RFA's completely morphs.
I agree that's the way Wiz and Connauton should be used, IMO. But I wouldn't say that Wiz's salary prevents that at all. A specialist of his quality is worth that salary, whether he plays 10 or 20 at evens.
The problem with our D is that none of them are top pair guys. Wiz and Connauton makes a fine offence-oriented pairing, JJ & Savard are a good but inconsistent second pair, Tyutin and Prout can play decent shutdown, no top pair among them.
I knew it was coming
I won't argue his defensive merits, he's average on a good day on the back end. But you have acknowledge his prowess with the puck, especially on the man advantage. He was 3rd in PP points last season, league wide. Think about the guys he beat out in that category:
Weber
Byfuglien
Subban
Keith
Markov
OEL
Pietrangelo
Doughty
This has been a bad year for him and he's 20th.
Point is, he's producing at or above the level of those elite blue liners. Blah's right, he's going to be a bargain on the back end of this contract. We won't replace his production for his cost, unless one of our RFA's completely morphs.
Hey look. A post with actual facts and research. Makes it a bit easier to justify your position and makes it far easier to take your post (and you by extension) seriously. I guess it's just easier to base your opinions on emotion and gut feel; then just beat others down if they don't agree.
Well done.
For the record; yeah we aren't easily replacing what he brings if we move him. At least with a right handed shot. This was the reason we brought him in. He's lived up to his contract and he's lived up to his reputation - both good and bad.
The person you quoted seems obsessed with "the best" everywhere. Wiz doesn't have to "the best" at anything to still be of value to this team - much like any other player. Also being "the best", as he defines it, doesn't mean you are more valuable to the team than anyone else.
Johansen is probably our best player; but I don't think he's our most valuable player. Same with Bob. But having said that, when they are playing their best they can carry the team more than other players can. My point in bringing this up? Wiz has value to this team and is a big reason we are in the top 10 on the PP. He's a good puck mover and has been more solid on defense than last season. He's a pretty decent 3/4 on pretty much any team in the NHL. He's not the best and won't carry you for long, although he can for a 2 or 3 game stretch. That doesn't mean he doesn't get you more points than he costs you over the course of a season. He would be a huge hole to fill.
Sorry. Salary cap hit. I couldn't care less about how much money billionaire owners of a professional sports franchise are paying their players that are worth 10's of millions of dollars. The only financial aspect of Wisniewski that can affect the TEAM, either good or bad, is cap hit.
The Subban/Wiz "production" comment is another huge example of the different ideas people have about "production". It can also be seen in the Anisimov thread (where blahblah has been destroyed by cyclone recently
). I guess I cant argue the "numbers" but in no way should Wiz be compared to Subban. The impact they have is nowhere near the same. Offensive, defensive, PP QB, "specialist", whatever. You people cant really believe this stuff. I knew it was coming
I won't argue his defensive merits, he's average on a good day on the back end. But you have acknowledge his prowess with the puck, especially on the man advantage. He was 3rd in PP points last season, league wide. Think about the guys he beat out in that category:
Weber/Byfuglien/Subban/Keith/Markov/OEL/Pietrangelo/Doughty
Point is, he's producing at or above the level of those elite blue liners.
1 of my main points that I haven't brought up in a while, and something that people seemed to disagree with me on is that playing on the PP is EASIER than playing PK or ES minutes. Sure, it takes certain skills to "perform" like he has on the PP, but in no way should his "value" or "production" be seen as higher because he plays "better" with easier ice time.
And again, the other "problem" with many discussions we have on here is the fact that "production" can and is seen in many different ways.
If his numbers from last season(1 season) show you that he's better, in any way, than any of these guys then I'm sure there's nothing I can say or Wiz can do negatively on the ice for your opinion to change. The only guy close to being compared to Wiz is a well aged Markov. And offensively, like all the other guys, he's just as good or better than him too.
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2008
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http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...2=5v4&f4=D&f7=70-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+17+18+19+20
He was SECOND in points generated per 60 minutes on the PP last season among dman with statistically significant time on the PP.
Why do you insist upon looking so ridiculous? It's so easy to prove you wrong
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...2=5v4&f4=D&f7=70-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+17+18+19+20
He was SECOND in points generated per 60 minutes on the PP last season among dman with statistically significant time on the PP.
Why do you insist upon looking so ridiculous? It's so easy to prove you wrong
There. Now he'll be able to understand you.
Cyclones Rock
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- Jun 12, 2008
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LaSt SeAsOn.....3rd in PP points in all of NHL.
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?fet...ord=desc&sort=powerPlayPoints&viewName=points
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?fet...ord=desc&sort=powerPlayPoints&viewName=points
So, what does that mean? He's better offensively than all the guys below him? You cannot make that claim, can you?
How bout this. Leaving out the FACT that he's worse defensively than practically any guys you can or will name, and based purely on "offense", how bout you name a couple guys you think are just "above" Wiz and just "below" Wiz when it comes to offensive ability/impact/whatever you wanna call it....
I cant argue the amount of PP points he got in a given year. I can however argue how he got those points and what they really mean in relation to the other "offensive" defensemen in the league.
And where are all these lists for THIS year??
How bout this. Leaving out the FACT that he's worse defensively than practically any guys you can or will name, and based purely on "offense", how bout you name a couple guys you think are just "above" Wiz and just "below" Wiz when it comes to offensive ability/impact/whatever you wanna call it....
I cant argue the amount of PP points he got in a given year. I can however argue how he got those points and what they really mean in relation to the other "offensive" defensemen in the league.
And where are all these lists for THIS year??
... that means that on the pp only two guys scored better than him. We like having people who can score on the pp. That's a good thing. Regardless of you other issues with him that's not debatable.
Cyclones Rock
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Here's where he stands on the CBJ for +/- this year:
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?sea...sition=D&country=&status=&viewName=plusMinus#
Of CBJ dman who have played 39 or more games this season, he is essentially tied for 2nd best with Savard (games played adjusted)
So, you're flat out wrong (again) just on the CBJ roster.
Try again
He's still about 15th in the league (games played adjusted for PP points this year):
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?fet...rd=desc&sort=powerPlayPoints&viewName=summary
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
He's not the most accomplished defensive forward; but your declaration is patently ridiculous.
Didn't know +/- was the stat that "shows" you how good a player is defensively. Wisniewski isn't our 2nd (or 3rd) best defensive guy back there. He's not better than JJ, Savard, Tyutin, Murray and I could make a case for every other guy
just as much as you can say he's better.
If you can't name a single comparable guy that's near his skill level or "impact" offensively, that's WORSE than him defensively then, yes, it is a fact.
Any guys you could name will(IMO, O for opinion) be better offensively AND defensively or have around half the CAP HIT Wiz has.
Keith Yandle. Now keep in mind, this is based purely on stats, which is seemingly a pretty difficult concept for you. Yandle, believe it or not, regardless of his defensive shortcomings, is a player that most would love to have on their team.
