Jack Eichel or Austin Matthews 17/18

[Menzinger]

I don't think people are upset at all that Hyman helped Matthews in becoming a 40 goal scorer last year.

He was Matthews most consistent linemate so it should be expected hat he has the most assists with him.

Replace Hyman's icetime with another player and they too would be expected to have the most assists with Matthews. THat number in of itself doesn't really tell us anything about Hymans effectiveness or lack there of

 

[zeke]

Are you saying Matthews went and retrieved and got the puck himself while he was standing in the slot? Not all players are good at doing this, not all players are so willing to the dirty work for skilled players. Like an answer to this. Babcock knows what he is doing here. He's coached more games I trust than you. Again I have the stats to back this up. You have what ifs to back you up.

no, the actual stats clearly back up the fact that hyman is not good. your isolated njmber telling us that hyman had more assists on matthews goals than crosby and kane did doesn't tell us anything.

yes, hyman is a good puck retriever. yes hyman passed the puck to matthews every single chance he got. yes hyman played 1000 minutes with matthews, far more than anyone else. hyman clearly gave the puck to matthews more than any other player in the league. all true. but none of that tells us that hyman actually helped matthews score more.

meanwhile, the actual relevant stats that i posted show that matthews was far more productive without hyman than with him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He was Matthews most consistent lineman so it should be expected hat he has the most assists with him.

Replace Hyman's icetime with another player and they too would be expected to have the most assists with Matthews. Hat number in of itself doesn't really tell us anything about Hymans effectiveness or lack there if

You have absolutely no proof of this however. Not all wingers have a desire to puck retrieve, or are as equally efficient doing the dirty work for more skilled players. There is a reason why Babcock has done what he has done here. Funny for a guy Leafs fans voted almost unaminously as the best coach in the NHL is now not so smart.

 

[Menzinger]

You have absolutely no proof of this however. Not all wingers have a desire to puck retrieve, or are as equally efficient doing the dirty work for more skilled players. There is a reason why Babcock has done what he has done here. Funny for a guy Leafs fans voted almost unaminously as the best coach in the NHL is now not so smart.

Not really, look across the league. Fairly common that players which share the most icetime with each other tend to score the most together. It's a matter of opportunity and usage.

Babcock has done a great job with the assesets given to him, but that doesn't mean that each line is ideally where it should or could be. I suspect the recently acquired Lw Marleau will end up replacing Hyman on that line to start the season.

 

[snipes]

no, the actual stats clearly back up the fact that hyman is not good. your isolated njmber telling us that hyman had more assists on matthews goals than crosby and kane did doesn't tell us anything.

yes, hyman is a good puck retriever. yes hyman passed the puck to matthews every single chance he got. yes hyman played 1000 minutes with matthews, far more than anyone else. hyman clearly gave the puck to matthews more than any other player in the league. all true. but none of that tells us that hyman actually helped matthews score more.

meanwhile, the actual relevant stats that i posted show that matthews was far more productive without hyman than with him.

Oh the irony.

 

[TDK67]

He was Matthews most consistent linemate so it should be expected hat he has the most assists with him.

Replace Hyman's icetime with another player and they too would be expected to have the most assists with Matthews. THat number in of itself doesn't really tell us anything about Hymans effectiveness or lack there of

This can be proven with some very basic math.

Nylander got about 55-60% of Hyman's TOI with Matthews and has about 55-60% of Hyman's first assissts to Matthews. His total assists relative to ice time with Matthews is even better than Hyman's.

I liked what Hyman did for Matthews in terms of puck retrieval. I don't think any Leafs fan is disputing that.

However, I don't think Hyman was any kind of exemplary playmaker for Matthews (based on these assist #s and actually watching 88 games of them together) and the BIGGEST issue is that he shot 4.5% when playing with Matthews (and despite being among league leaders in high danger chances) which is just abysmal. I think that's most Leafs fans biggest complaint of Hyman as well, but big surprise that this factual concern is being clearly deflected and obfuscated by pointing to assist numbers which literally have absolutely nothing to do with Hyman's own finishing ability.

Big "W" for obfuscation today.

 

[ijuka]

Not really, look across the league. Fairly common that players which share the most icetime with each other tend to score the most together. It's a matter of opportunity and usage.

Babcock has done a great job with the assesets given to him, but that doesn't mean that each line is ideally where it should or could be. I suspect the recently acquired Lw Marleau will end up replacing Hyman on that line to start the season.

Nylander+Brown=Hyman when it comes to assists.

So what is the reason for that, exactly?

 

[Menzinger]

Nylander+Brown=Hyman when it comes to assists.

So what is the reason for that, exactly?

Usage. And the fact that Nylander and Brown could also score themselves.

 

[TDK67]

Nylander+Brown=Hyman when it comes to assists.

So what is the reason for that, exactly?

Lol because Hyman had nearly 100% of the LW TOI spot with Matthews while Nylander + Brown made up 100% of the RW TOI spot with Matthews.

Was your question serious or...?

 

[ijuka]

Lol because Hyman had nearly 100% of the LW TOI spot with Matthews while Nylander + Brown made up 100% of the RW TOI spot with Matthews.

Was your question serious or...?

So Hyman was as effective as Nylander and Brown?

Secondary question: If P. Kane was on one wing and Kunitz was on the other, who do you think would have more assists?

Tertiary question: Why is this not the case for Nylander/Brown vs Hyman?

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Oh the irony.

it's delicious

 

[Menzinger]

So Hyman was as effective as Nylander and Brown?

Secondary question: If P. Kane was on one wing and Kunitz was on the other, who do you think would have more assists?

Tertiary question: Why is this not the case for Nylander/Brown vs Hyman?

Because they didn't play as much alongside Matthews as Hyman......

 

[TDK67]

So Hyman was as effective as Nylander and Brown?

Secondary question: If P. Kane was on one wing and Kunitz was on the other, who do you think would have more assists?

Tertiary question: Why is this not the case for Nylander/Brown vs Hyman?

Yes, Hyman was as effective as Nylander/Brown at getting the 2nd best goal scorer in the league the puck.

How effective was Hyman at scoring when playing with Matthews?

How effective was Hyman at scoring high danger chances relative to league average?

Where was Hyman ranked in high danger chances among the league?

Why are most Leafs fans complaining about Hyman's finishing ability only to have you and another poster not address that at all while focusing on Hyman's assists?

 

[Royal Thunder]

Exactly but I don't know why you're viewing him having previous experience as a negative. It's something he did to get a leg up. That's his advantage on the competition. Much like McDavid and his blazing speed. Every elite player comes in with some sort of a physical or mental advantage on the regular rookies and other players. Crosby and Ovi were the same way. Eichel is the same. Compare a skinny 165 lbs Karlsson or Kadri to a 6'4 230 lbs Ovi breaking into the league. Let's just appreciate who they are and give credit where its due. It's a tough league for anyone, for a 18/19 year old rookie it's amazing what these kids have done. Same goes for Laine too. 18 year old breaking into the league fearlessly producing on the top line of a respectable NHL team. That is freaking impressive.

It's not a negative, all credit to him but to me the fact that Matthews played pro pre-NHL and was so incredibly polished as a rookie means that he has less room to grow than Eichel who is still quite raw as a player. Eichel is arguably as good or better now with more room to grow.

 

[karnige]

eichel is more like mcdavid where he can create so much out of nothing. Ill take him.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

eichel is more like mcdavid where he can create so much out of nothing. Ill take him.

That explains why Matthews had more scoring chances then

 

[Moskau]

That explains why Matthews had more scoring chances then

Auston Matthews had more scoring chances on an all offense system in 20 more games than Jack Eichel had in Dan Bylsma's system?!?!?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Auston Matthews had more scoring chances on an all offense system in 20 more games than Jack Eichel had in Dan Bylsma's system?!?!?

More scoring chances per game too. Yeah Bylsma sucks but Eichel also got away with being much more lax defensively than Matthews so it probably evens out

 

[Menzinger]

Auston Matthews had more scoring chances on an all offense system in 20 more games than Jack Eichel had in Dan Bylsma's system?!?!?

The Leafs do not have an "all offense system".

They don't play run and gun hockey.

 

[ijuka]

The Leafs do not have an "all offense system".

They don't play run and gun hockey.

Maybe they won't the next season, but they sure did last.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

It's not a negative, all credit to him but to me the fact that Matthews played pro pre-NHL and was so incredibly polished as a rookie means that he has less room to grow than Eichel who is still quite raw as a player. Eichel is arguably as good or better now with more room to grow.

Yeah that makes sense. Eichel is better but he has more room to grow since Matthews is more polished and worse

 

[TDK67]

Yeah that makes sense. Eichel is better but he has more room to grow since Matthews is more polished and worse

Idk where this perception came from but people talk about "room for growth" as if its a bottle that can be filled to the top. Matthews' bottle is more filled therefore he has "less room" while Eichel's bottle is less filled therefore he has "more room".

The problem with this really, really weird perception of ceilings/potential is that it tries to create a completely arbitrary but finite line for an athletes peak...which makes no sense. The whole idea of "potential" is incredibly nebulous to begin with yet people insist on pretending to be experts on this thing which is entirely immeasurable.

Really silly stuff whenever I see someone make claims about who can grow the most.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Because they didn't play as much alongside Matthews as Hyman......

Nylander played the 2nd most mins with Matthews 5V5 last year. Over 600+ TOI mins. He is often referred here as WHC MVP. Not an insignificant number. Brown is a rookie 20 goal scorer. Over 300 TOI mins. So yes, Matthews had a skilled winger with him all season as well as a terrific puck retriever. Facts.

 

[biotk]

Auston Matthews had more scoring chances on an all offense system in 20 more games than Jack Eichel had in Dan Bylsma's system?!?!?

I don't know if it can be blamed on coaching or missed games:

iSCF/60

Matthews: 13.15
Crosby: 10.04
E. Kane: 9.60
Marleau: 9.59
Marner: 9.55
Nylander: 8.11
Hyman: 8.07
Eichel: 7.98
Reinhart: 7.53
Eichel (2016): 6.91

iHDCF/60

Matthews: 6.08
Marleau: 5.15
E. Kane: 4.72
Crosby: 4.54
Hyman: 4.34
Reinhart: 3.68
Marner: 3.30
Eichel: 3.21
Eichel (2016): 3.14
Nylander: 2.53

(Incidentally, while Matthews was above 6, only a couple players had iHDCFs above 5: McDavid and Skinner at 5.72, Pavelski at 5.33, Lee at 5.30 and Marleau at 5.15. The latter being one of the reasons why I think that the Leafs signed Marleau and I believe will play him beside Matthews - he goes to the high danger spots like Hyman, but is far better at finishing).

 

[sabrebuild]

The only thing limiting Matthews potential is elite skating. That he does not have.