U18: Ivan Hlinka Memorial - Team Switzerland
- Thread starter Speyer
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Very good roster. 06 kids are the best for years and could be contenders in these international tournaments. However, I see three potential problems:
- RD's are weak links. Just two of them on the roster and while I won't deny their talent, even those two aren't as good as other defenders available, like for examble Ben Toller. Even though they're more long shot projects than finished players, a lot of weight is gonna be on those guys shoulder's, particularly on Gian Meier's. Will be interesting to see how he does.
- Blatant lack of experience thanks to a certain idiot coach. If you look at last year's Swiss Hlinka Memorial roster, you don't know whether to laugh or cry. At least half, if not 3/4 of them was worse than comparable 06 kids even a year ago and those 05 guys probably won't even turn pro. Reber are the only ones who got significant international ice time as underagers but even those two are gonna play this tournament for the first time. If you look at the Swiss direct competition such as Slovakia or Germany, they regularly bring lots of underagers to those tournaments either because they're already better than others or to give them a better chance next year if an age group is particularly bad. Switzerland rarely ever does this. You can behave like this if you're Canada, Sweden or USA but not as the small country of Switzerland.
- Coaching. Can't be worse than the other SIHF coaches but for kids it's difficult to play the best hockey if you're coached by idiots and outcoached game after game. New coaching staff now though so we'll see how it goes.
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HuGort
Registered User
Yeah It probably couldn't have hurt to select some more natural RD's like Toller, Rozic or Siren. I am not super familiar with those players as they have played much less games on the NT as the players actually selected.
If I remember correctly they generally used to select more underagers for the IH and the WJC U18 a few years back. Maybe not as much as Germany and Slovakia are now but I remember most teams in the past had at least a few younger players on the squad. Manuele Celio still used to call up a lot of underagers while Paterlini (especially after 2017) and Jenni were more focused on bringing the older players. In Jennis case this led to some particularly questionable decisions. Lian Bichsel didn't even make the Ivan Hlinka tournament as an underager for example. And no 06 born player either which is pretty much ridiculous. I hope this will change again under the new coaching staff. They haven't selected an underager this year either but I think thats actually justified. This team should be competitive vs the other mid tier nations and frankly no 07 born player would frankly be deserving to be called up based on their play this season. So going with an all 06 team is probably the right move here and then the 08 birth year should already get a chance in the next tournament if they are as good as advertised.
Lookie here.
- Sep 29, 2016
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Toller can play the right side? Possible, but I've seen him play his natural side only. I expect Ustinkov to play his off side though in order to take the pressure off Meier. I don't know how comfortable Ustinkov is playing off side vs better competition but I believe in juniors he played with Timo Bünzli (who's a lefty playing his natural side) a lot.
I have no problems selecting senior players only if there are no better younger players available and if the team is good enough to compete. However, as a smaller nation, you have to select underagers if they're better than the senior players or if your team isn't competitive. You gotta pick your battles and it's good to focus on your best talents rather than playing random kids who most likely aren't even gonna turn pro. The arrogant way we're currenty selecting our rosters might work for the countries I listed but not for Switzerland. If course the current roster is fine because it's actually a good one. The problem is that none of them ever played at this tournament. Which is a joke. Look at last year's roster. Some of these guys I've already forgotten about. It's a joke.
Neuenschwander
Kirsch
Muggli, Ustinkov
Geisser, Meier
Blessing, Kurt
Sansonnens, Guignard
Bosson, Antenen, Giger
Ponzetto, Reber, Forget
Wehrli, Domenichelli, Körbler
Mottard, Grossniklaus, Cattin
Thul, Tarchini, Wey
I think that's two outstanding defenders (I fully expect that top pairing to play heavy minutes) and 7 very good forwards. The top6 I listed plus Wehrli. Should all do very well at this level. I'm rather high on Mottard and Körbler as well. The rest seems to be solid but we'll have to see how they do.
I like Kirsch as well but I hope that Neuenschwander is the starter. He's the real deal. On defense I'd still want Toller. I think he's the 3rd best lefty defender available behind just Ustinkov and Muggli. Geisser is a bit of a question mark for me. Played both defense and forward for Zug but if I remember correctly he's more of a forward than a defenseman. I also think he used to play mostly forward for the national teams. Again, I could be wrong...but I find it interesting to see him listed on defense. Blessing, and especially Sansonnens and Guignard I'm cool with but I don't think they're as good as Toller. Guignard I think I've seen playing his off side though so that's a good pick for sure.
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Antiillafire
Registered User
Looking forward to seeing Ustinkov against his peer group. This looks like a solid 2006 age group.
Slovak-Swiss U17 games last season:
3-1 for Swiss
4-0 for Swiss
5-1 for Swiss
6-4 for Swiss
Slovak-Swiss U17 games last season:
3-1 for Swiss
4-0 for Swiss
5-1 for Swiss
6-4 for Swiss
GermanSpitfire
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Yeah, this Swiss age group is strong, and deep.
They’re going to be a force in international competition’s moving forward.
My mistake. I had him pegged as RD for some reason. Haven't really seen him play since 2021 in any meaningful capacity anyway. I guess its either Ustinkov and or Muggli playing on the right side then. I think they both played there in some of their WJC U18 games too.
It will be interesting to see which goaltender gets the number one spot. Kirsch is probably in the pole position as he was the underager that was taken to the U18's. But if I remember correctly Schöb used them fairly equally on the U17 team. So I am not sure anything is set in stone yet. It might come down to performance in the preparation games.
Kuracmugger
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Can't really comment on his play in the junior leagues but he didn't look as good as Kirsch and Neuenschwander in the U17 NT last season. Goaltending looks incredibly deep with the 06 birth year though. He probably would still be the starter if it was a weaker birth year.
Kuracmugger
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Are Kirsch and Neuenschwander like draft pick good or just National League players good? I wasn’t that impressed by kirsch in the u18s.
Hard to say. Goalies are harder to predict than skaters and It's not exactly a specialty of mine either. It's true that Kirsch had some bad looks in the U18's albeit he had some good safes too and we should not forget that he was still an underager in this tournament and got the most difficult start by far against the US. For the much more competitive U17 Swiss NT team he definitely looked a lot more solid. Swiss NHL Scout Thomas Roost has recently called him a potential mid round pick for next years draft. I think others users like @Hinterland are more knowledgeable about goaltending than me though and might give a more elaborate answer to your question.
Kuracmugger
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Thanks, i think Roost can be a good indicator he’s a scout after all, and was often brutally honest about swiss players draft chances in the last years.
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Some of his takes are pretty hot though to put it mildly.
Of course Ustinkov probably does have more offensive upside than Muggli but they're actually not that different stylewise. I don't see Ustinkov as an offensive defenseman at all, more as solid defender with an ability to chip in on offense. I think it would be unfair to call Muggli a shutdown defenseman, too. He's mostly unspectacular but can really make plays and create offensive as well.
Also, Pedrazzini and Dorthe probably have almost zero chances to get drafted. Pedrazzini's chances are actually 0,0% as small, unproven players never get drafted. Dorthe is undersized as well and has limited offensive upside. He also has a reputation of repeatedly taking dumb, unecessary penalties. I like to watch Jan Dorthe so I understand where the fascination with him comes from. He's intense, very good skater, very good against the puck, can play all forward positions, never takes a shift off. Still, undersized forwards with limited offense don't usually get drafted. Surely not out of Europe and their first year of eligibility. I wouldn't even rule out an NHL career for Dorthe as I really like the player but he's not gonna get drafted, at least not in 2024.
All in all a very curious list of players. No mention of players with way better chances like for example Jordan Forget.
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I don't think I know more than you at all. I never played goalie, at least not in hockey.
I know just enough to tell that Pasche sucks or Hollenstein is much worse than Schmid or Charlin but I think that speaks against certain SIHF coaches more than it would actually qualify me as a goalie expert
At least Paterlini is able to learn from his mistakes as he's now playing the goalie he once ignored for the best part of a tournament. Sadly, the coaches who are still with the SIHF don't have the same ability
Having said this, I agree with your evaluation.
The WJC18 game can be ignored as he was thrown in front of wolves. This is not how you treat an underager goalie. As for the rest, I still prefer Neuenschwander over Kirsch but for the 2024 draft, Kirsch might be the best goalie available. Personally I like McNutt and especially Solèr as well but Kirsch is the front runner. He's absolutely gonna get drafted if he doesn't mess this season up completely. He's a big guy who can move really well. Might be a later round pick if performances don't match his potential next season but those kind of goalie prospects hardly ever get overlooked.
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That may look good and individually we have a lot of very good 06 prospects but I'm not getting my hopes up for good international results just yet.
The problem is that this group is lacking experience as they haven't gotten nearly as much playing time as underagers as they should have. The group is also lacking quality righty defenders and a real difference maker superstar. I'm not sure Ustinkov can dominate international tournaments the way say Lian Bichsel did. Doesn't necessarily make him a worse prospect but it would be a surprise to me if he had it in him. Also, coaching is always a question in Switzerland. I'm excited to see a group of talented kids in this tournament but nothing more for now
Roost always had pretty realistic and reasonable evaluations of our prospects in my opinion, until this year that is. At the last U18's he also claimed that Alain Graf, Simon Meier and even Matteo Wagner (I think) were potential draft candidates. To actually think that Dorthe and even Pedrazzini have draft chances is an extremely weird take. Sure Pedrazzini has some fairly flashy puck skills but his size and other aspects of his game completely nullify that. Just look at Lino Martschini for example. In the junior national teams he outproduced Niederreiter and Sven Bärtschi and he even put up decent numbers in the OHL in his draft year and he still could not generate any interest from scouts. Sure the NHL might be a little bit more open for undersized players now but only for those with exceptional skills. Dorthe has zero draft chances as well. I don't know what compelled Roost to say otherwise, maybe he was specifically asked to mention the best remaining 05 players. I also heard he has started to do career coaching for prospects recently, so maybe he wants to push some of his clients a little bit
. Anyway I still thinks his view of the more talented prospects has some value however, since its probably also heavily influenced by the opinion other scouts from his professional network.I agree that Ustinkov isn't primarily an offensive minded d men. His defensive decision making and especially his outlet passes were somewhat lacking at the U18's however, much worse than I remember it from other international games. But I still consider him solid defensively unless that issue carries over into the new season. But he does have the ability to carry the puck as well and is effective on rushes and on the cycle due to his hands and edges. Other aspects of his offensive game are more lacking though, especially his shot. He needs to improve his shot in particular if he wants to be an effective PP QB on the next level.
Muggli has some offensive upside as well. Most of the time he won't be the guy who initiates offense but he really likes to join the rush if its safe. He has really good edge work as well but he plays a different game than Ustinkov. He likes to support the forwards along the boards and behind the net and if he gets puck he can create space for himself with pivots and use his good vision for dangerous passes into the slot area. But I was most impressed with his defensive game. He seems to have very good hockey IQ and makes very few mistakes. Even though he isn't the biggest player he uses his body extremely well against the puck. I think from all the 06 players he has the highest floor. I would be extremely surprised if he won't be at least a longtime NLA player if he can stay healthy.
All in all I consider both Ustinkov and Muggli two way players with more incentive on their defensive game as of right now. How much they will be able to build on their offensive game only the future can tell. Hopefully they will be similarly successful like J.J. Moser in that task.
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Kuracmugger
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Agree, but both seem like legit prospects and them doing fairly well in the u18 worlds makes me hope they won’t stagnate and fall out of the draft in 24. I am a bit afraid Muggli will only play u20 this year even tho he got a pro contract. Since the Zug team has 9 other defenders under contract so he probably won’t play unless there’s injuries. Ustinkov will probably play SL and occasionally NL(hopefully) so he still gets good level of hockey. The Ivan Hlinka will probably show how their draft years will go. I am excepting this team to do better than the last years however i think i‘ve probably said the same thing about the 03,04,05 before the hlinka.Roost always had pretty realistic and reasonable evaluations of our prospects in my opinion, until this year that is. At the last U18's he also claimed that Alain Graf, Simon Meier and even Matteo Wagner (I think) were potential draft candidates. To actually think that Dorthe and even Pedrazzini have draft chances is an extremely weird take. Sure Pedrazzini has some fairly flashy puck skills but his size and other aspects of his game completely nullify that. Just look at Lino Martschini for example. In the junior national teams he outproduced Niederreiter and Sven Bärtschi and he even put up decent numbers in the OHL in his draft year and he still could not generate any interest from scouts. Sure the NHL might be a little bit more open for undersized players now but only for those with exceptional skills. Dorthe has zero draft chances as well. I don't know what compelled Roost to say otherwise, maybe he was specifically asked to mention the best remaining 05 players. I also heard he has started to do career coaching for prospects recently, so maybe he wants to push some of his clients a little bit
I agree that Ustinkov isn't primarily an offensive minded d men. His defensive decision making and especially his outlet passes were somewhat lacking at the U18's however, much worse than I remember it from other international games. But I still consider him solid defensively unless that issue carries over into the new season. But he does have the ability to carry the puck as well and is effective on rushes and on the cycle due to his hands and edges. Other aspects of his offensive game are more lacking though, especially his shot. He needs to improve his shot in particular if he wants to be an effective PP QB on the next level.
Muggli has some offensive upside as well. Most of the time he won't be the guy who initiates offense but he really likes to join the rush if its safe. He has really good edge work as well but he plays a different game than Ustinkov. He likes to support the forwards along the boards and behind the net and if he gets puck he can create space for himself with pivots and use his good vision for dangerous passes into the slot area. But I was most impressed with his defensive game. He seems to have very good hockey IQ and makes very few mistakes. Even though he isn't the biggest player he uses his body extremely well against the puck. I think from all the 06 players he has the highest floor. I would be extremely surprised if he won't be at least a longtime NLA player if he can stay healthy.
All in all I consider both Ustinkov and Muggli two way players with more incentive on their defensive game as of right now. How much they will be able to build on their offensive game only the future can tell. Hopefully they will be similarly successful like J.J. Moser in that task.
Muggli has been promoted to the first team but Zug has no shortage of young and youngish dmen, so its very doubtful that he will get a shot. Zug is also a contender so I doubt they are very eager to rely on a 17 year old. Maybe some type of loan deal with a SL team can be made, but I am afraid he will be stuck in the U20 league which will be less than ideal. Its a shame really because he would have been good enough to go both to Sweden or the CHL and I am sure there would have been teams interested in him on both sides of the Atlantic.
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To be fair, I actually think Simon Meier would have had a chance if it wasn't for his WJC18 where he was extremely poor. I don't know if he would have had to completely dominate the tournament to get drafted. Maybe, but just proving his lack of size isn't gonna stop him would have been great. Sadly, he showed the exact opposite, was one of the worst player even on his team. Graf or Wagner never had a chance.Roost always had pretty realistic and reasonable evaluations of our prospects in my opinion, until this year that is. At the last U18's he also claimed that Alain Graf, Simon Meier and even Matteo Wagner (I think) were potential draft candidates. To actually think that Dorthe and even Pedrazzini have draft chances is an extremely weird take. Sure Pedrazzini has some fairly flashy puck skills but his size and other aspects of his game completely nullify that. Just look at Lino Martschini for example. In the junior national teams he outproduced Niederreiter and Sven Bärtschi and he even put up decent numbers in the OHL in his draft year and he still could not generate any interest from scouts. Sure the NHL might be a little bit more open for undersized players now but only for those with exceptional skills. Dorthe has zero draft chances as well. I don't know what compelled Roost to say otherwise, maybe he was specifically asked to mention the best remaining 05 players. I also heard he has started to do career coaching for prospects recently, so maybe he wants to push some of his clients a little bit
I agree that Ustinkov isn't primarily an offensive minded d men. His defensive decision making and especially his outlet passes were somewhat lacking at the U18's however, much worse than I remember it from other international games. But I still consider him solid defensively unless that issue carries over into the new season. But he does have the ability to carry the puck as well and is effective on rushes and on the cycle due to his hands and edges. Other aspects of his offensive game are more lacking though, especially his shot. He needs to improve his shot in particular if he wants to be an effective PP QB on the next level.
Muggli has some offensive upside as well. Most of the time he won't be the guy who initiates offense but he really likes to join the rush if its safe. He has really good edge work as well but he plays a different game than Ustinkov. He likes to support the forwards along the boards and behind the net and if he gets puck he can create space for himself with pivots and use his good vision for dangerous passes into the slot area. But I was most impressed with his defensive game. He seems to have very good hockey IQ and makes very few mistakes. Even though he isn't the biggest player he uses his body extremely well against the puck. I think from all the 06 players he has the highest floor. I would be extremely surprised if he won't be at least a longtime NLA player if he can stay healthy.
All in all I consider both Ustinkov and Muggli two way players with more incentive on their defensive game as of right now. How much they will be able to build on their offensive game only the future can tell. Hopefully they will be similarly successful like J.J. Moser in that task.
I liked Ustinkov's defensive game a lot at the WJC18. He seemed faster skating than most of the speedster forwards and was physically dominant, winning almost all board and puck battles. His impact with the puck was very disappointing though. He visibly tried to make stuff happen but if there was little space he seemed lost and his outlet passes, as you mentioned, were crap as well. Even when he had space he still didn't create much. I probably expected a bit more but it matches what he showed in pro hockey. Physically he's ready. Fast skater, good strength for his age. Decision making with the puck could be a lot better though. Which makes Roost's comment about him and Muggli even more curious. I'm not gonna claim that it can't be fixed and it might just be a confidence thing. Still, to essentially call Ustinkov an offensive defenseman and Muggli a shutdown defenseman seems like a pretty hot take as we speak.
Kuracmugger
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Haven’t seen this video of roost saying this where can i find it? Maybe he only watched highlights and saw ustinkov‘s goal against latvia and made the assumption based off of that
Agreed on Ustinkov. Decision-making/hockey sense is his biggest issue that’s holding him back right now. Definitely needs to step it up if he wants to succeed at the next level. I already didn’t think that aspect of his game was great in the U20 league and it doesn’t get much easier than Swiss U20 hockey.
Kuracmugger
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I have watched part of the game against the czechs the team looked very promising but somehow broke together in the 3rd. Idk how strong this czech team is this year compared to other years but they look good. I was very impressed with Jamiro Reber wonderful assist on the first goal and good finish on the second goal. I liked Ustinkov too he is poised with the puck and a good puck mover hade some good outbreaks. Muggli was a bit mediocre but not bad. Forget and ponzetto looked good too. I didn’t really like gian Meier he was out of position some times and it felt like he just got rid of the puck sometimes immediately after getting it.
I have watched the game as well and can confirm most of those observations. Reber was by far the best Swiss player. He displayed some fantastic vision, hands and skating at times and much of the offense ran through him. Other than him though, a lot of the other skaters didn't play up to their full potential. You already mentioned Muggli who was unusually sloppy today. Ustinkov wasn't bad, but not as dominant as he should be against his peers and as he was often times at the U17 level. On a more positive note, I really liked Kimi Körblers two way game and motor. Niklas Blessing made a lot of defensive mistakes and unforced turnovers though. That needs to get better in the coming games.
As far as the Czechs are concerned, I am not super familiar with them either. But they have a bunch of really good prospects in Jecho, Bednak, Titlbach and especially the defenceman Jiricek. So I don't think this is a weak team at all.
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