Italy started "here to stay" for the next WC

[Incubajerks]

Here is a short Q&A session useful to understand the logic of Italian hockey:

Q: what is the only goal the national team of Italy has?
A: the only possible goal is to reach the highest placement possible at the next World Championship.
Q: how can this goal be accomplished?
A: building the best possible roster with the strongest hockey players Italy has.
Q: who are the strongest players Italy has?
A: All the Italian Canadians who are already eligible to play.
Q: what about adding some own developed players into the team roster?
A: no way, they are all too bad to success at international level.
Q: can we somehow improve the level of the Italian players?
A: no way. Hockey is only played in a little part of the country, Italy does not have enough players, does not have have enough arenas.
Q: what if an Italian Canadian player is recovering from an injury?
A: He still the better option than a given Italian player.

This is not ironic, that's really what most of Italian hockey fans thinks and also what the most Canadian coaches who worked in Italian hockey thinks. And that's why Italian hockey never showed any significant improvements.

Apart from the easy irony you will surely be aware of how many "oriundi" they have brought out of the 26 called for the Euro ice challange in Slovenia.

 

[MeHateHe]

Here is a short Q&A session useful to understand the logic of Italian hockey:

Q: what is the only goal the national team of Italy has?
A: the only possible goal is to reach the highest placement possible at the next World Championship.
Q: how can this goal be accomplished?
A: building the best possible roster with the strongest hockey players Italy has.
Q: who are the strongest players Italy has?
A: All the Italian Canadians who are already eligible to play.
Q: what about adding some own developed players into the team roster?
A: no way, they are all too bad to success at international level.
Q: can we somehow improve the level of the Italian players?
A: no way. Hockey is only played in a little part of the country, Italy does not have enough players, does not have have enough arenas.
Q: what if an Italian Canadian player is recovering from an injury?
A: He still the better option than a given Italian player.

This is not ironic, that's really what most of Italian hockey fans thinks and also what the most Canadian coaches who worked in Italian hockey thinks. And that's why Italian hockey never showed any significant improvements.

I’m aware that Canadian government funding of national sports federations depends on maintaining a certain standard in international play. Is this the same in Italy? Is the Italian federation at risk of losing government support if they fall out of the elite pool? If that is the case, and if the federation is using at least some of that money to support development programs, then having foreigners compete at national championships is a good short-term strategy. If not...

 

[daver]

I had some rigatoni the other night that felt like it was "here to stay".

 

[Incubajerks]

I had some rigatoni the other night that felt like it was "here to stay".

rigatoni with?

 

[Jon Riley]

The fact that you basically do not even know if there will be an Italian league, where will each team will play and under which format does not really help building a movement.
Can a town like Milan have the main team that plays in that shithole of the Agorà?
No chance you can build something when there is no money to do so.
Everything is about scraping resources and players wherever you find them, there isn't really any other choice.

What happened to Scandella, is he retired? Talking about an oriundo that for years gave to the national team more than all the other players combined.

Morini and Kostner? Busy with their teams in LNA? I guess they will be locks for the final roster.

 

[Urbanskog]

What happened to Scandella, is he retired? Talking about an oriundo that for years gave to the national team more than all the other players combined.

Morini and Kostner? Busy with their teams in LNA? I guess they will be locks for the final roster.

It's not like this roster is even close to what they'll bring to the World Championship, most of the better players are missing.

 

[PanniniClaus]

Guess he has a problem with Dawes and the likes...

Nigel Dawes is a dyed in the wool Kazakh.....bleeds blue and gold

 

[LeafChief]

Why doesn't Italy go the route that Kazakhstan did when they got a whole bunch of Canadians (Nigel Dawes, Brandon Bochenski, Dustin Boyd, etc) to join their domestic league and get citizenship.

Italy would be even more successful than the Kazakh's at this with the huge Italian population in Canada. Canadian's in the GTA make up a huge chunk of the Italian International Ball Hockey team.

 

[Habs76]

Why doesn't Italy go the route that Kazakhstan did when they got a whole bunch of Canadians (Nigel Dawes, Brandon Bochenski, Dustin Boyd, etc) to join their domestic league and get citizenship.

Italy would be even more successful than the Kazakh's at this with the huge Italian population in Canada. Canadian's in the GTA make up a huge chunk of the Italian International Ball Hockey team.

Those guys played for Kazakhstan's KHL team, Barys Astana. Doubt Italy will be able to attract big names to their domestic league long-term without teams investing serious cash in the league. Need to get a team in the KHL or even the Swiss league to really go the Kazakhstan route.

 

[Urbanskog]

Why doesn't Italy go the route that Kazakhstan did when they got a whole bunch of Canadians (Nigel Dawes, Brandon Bochenski, Dustin Boyd, etc) to join their domestic league and get citizenship.

Italy would be even more successful than the Kazakh's at this with the huge Italian population in Canada. Canadian's in the GTA make up a huge chunk of the Italian International Ball Hockey team.

Those guys played for Kazakhstan's KHL team, Barys Astana. Doubt Italy will be able to attract big names to their domestic league long-term without teams investing serious cash in the league. Need to get a team in the KHL or even the Swiss league to really go the Kazakhstan route.

First of all, the first post of the thread clearly states that Italy is doing exactly that — naturalizing foreigners to strengthen their national team. In fact, they have just handed out passports to Massimo Carozza, Daniel Catenacci, Angelo Miceli and Alex Petan, the latter two being eligible to represent Italy in this year's World Championship.

Second, Italy does not have a fully professional domestic league. There's the Alps Hockey League with teams from Italy, Austria and Slovenia where Italy has the plurality of teams and then there's the flagship of Italian club hockey, HC Bolzano, the reigning champions of the Austrian-based league EBEL through which most of the naturalization process is presumably going to happen.

 

[Habs76]

First of all, the first post of the thread clearly states that Italy is doing exactly that — naturalizing foreigners to strengthen their national team. In fact, they have just handed out passports to Massimo Carozza, Daniel Catenacci, Angelo Miceli and Alex Petan, the latter two being eligible to represent Italy in this year's World Championship.

Second, Italy does not have a fully professional domestic league. There's the Alps Hockey League with teams from Italy, Austria and Slovenia where Italy has the plurality of teams and then there's the flagship of Italian club hockey, HC Bolzano, the reigning champions of the Austrian-based league EBEL through which most of the naturalization process is presumably going to happen.

Yeah, I didn't read the whole conversation my bad. But that's still essentially what I'm saying. An EBEL team can only pull in a certain quality of talent.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Nigel Dawes is a dyed in the wool Kazakh.....bleeds blue and gold

Every nation in that 10-20 range except for the Baltic States is doing this. One isn't better than the other but well, again, one isn't better than the other. Dawes and Boyd are as much Kazakhs as McMonagle or Sullivan Italians. The difference is some countries are using those guys as a complement or a stop gap while developing their own players and their U20 teams are making steps forward while Italy is sinking.

Why doesn't Italy go the route that Kazakhstan did when they got a whole bunch of Canadians (Nigel Dawes, Brandon Bochenski, Dustin Boyd, etc) to join their domestic league and get citizenship.

They are doing it for the last 15 years or so, that's what this whole thread is about. It's just that it doesn't make any real difference because it did nothing to actually improve Italian hockey over that time, their junior teams are close to being at all time worst and the players they can acquire through naturalization scheme aren't much better than other D1A/1B nations like Korea, GB or Hungary could. The difference is since Italians chose to do it en masse they had some success at 1A. At the same time, as recent times have shown, pretty much anyone can have some short-term success in 1A as the margins are very thin there.

 

[Gianpaolo]

First of all, the first post of the thread clearly states that Italy is doing exactly that — naturalizing foreigners to strengthen their national team. In fact, they have just handed out passports to Massimo Carozza, Daniel Catenacci, Angelo Miceli and Alex Petan, the latter two being eligible to represent Italy in this year's World Championship.

Even if Massimo Carrozza was on the roster in 24 EBEL games this season so far, mostly he had no ice time at all. Daniel Catenacci would need four consecutive years of play in Italy because he represented Canada at one WC U18. Angelo Miceli and Alex Petan are eligible and will for sure make the final roster, even if Miceli can barely find a place in the bottom six line of HC Bolzano. All those guys were acquired by Bolzano because the EBEL point system does not distinguish between being import or not, but between being Italian citizen or not.

 

[Gianpaolo]

What happened to Scandella, is he retired? Talking about an oriundo that for years gave to the national team more than all the other players combined..

You are totally right, in the last 15 years Scandella was probably the only one who was able to really help the National team. Currently he is keeping himself in form playing in the LNAH and waiting for a phone call from Italy. If no Italian club will call him, may be Beddoes will do it in late April inviting him to join the team Bratislava.

 

[Urbanskog]

Even if Massimo Carrozza was on the roster in 24 EBEL games this season so far, mostly he had no ice time at all. Daniel Catenacci would need four consecutive years of play in Italy because he represented Canada at one WC U18. Angelo Miceli and Alex Petan are eligible and will for sure make the final roster, even if Miceli can barely find a place in the bottom six line of HC Bolzano. All those guys were acquired by Bolzano because the EBEL point system does not distinguish between being import or not, but between being Italian citizen or not.

Miceli is the second-best scorer of Bolzano during this season, how is this possible?

 

[kabidjan18]

Miceli is the second-best scorer of Bolzano during this season, how is this possible?

Their lines shift a lot, but regardless Miceli will always get the IT he needs. When the time comes he'll be their 2nd best guy behind Petan.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

The difference is some countries are using those guys as a complement or a stop gap while developing their own players and their U20 teams are making steps forward while Italy is sinking.

For less established countries, getting a few imports in the national teams can go a long way as other players improve. Dawes and the likes eat up significant minutes in both teams (well, now Dawes moved, but the concept remains), yet locals can watch and learn, develop. The Kazakhs just climbed up to the elite level in the U20, while Italy... I think that Italy has more chances to win an adult WC than a WJC, I guess that's enough said.
This is what happens when you use imports not to develop your hockey movement, but to get a decent result at the next world championship, no matter what level it is. This is the problem with Italy as a whole, not only in hockey, of course. Short sighting, lack of a programmatic vision, waiting the last moment and taking rush decisions...

 

[member 305909]

Italy isn't really making any progress. In the 80's they were two years in the top pool when it consisted of only eight countries.

On the other hand, also Holland and Romania have been to the eight-team top pool but where are they now?!

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Forza Azzurri

 

[Maplebeasts]

Unless Italy starts to invest more in homegrown talent and develops more of a hockey culture, they'll be launching the "need to get back up" campaign as soon as next year.

 

[Fighter]

If anything, hockey is receiving even less attention as of now. Zero articles on the main sport newspapers, zero games in television. With little to no cash, the sport is confined to some small towns in the Alps. There is not even an italian league anymore, Bolzano has to play in EBEL (Austria) League.
As much as I hate to say this, italian hockey is in shambles. Paralympic hockey instead is going fairly well: fourth in the Pyeongchang Olympics, active in quite few international tournaments and at least some games are televised.

 

[SoundAndFury]

All the other things aside, Bolzano playing in EBEL is a great thing. Or at least it should be if done right. Alps HL should only improve things as well, domestic competitions just don't serve any purpose in this day and age as soon as you can afford playing against better competition.

 

[Albatros]

Domestically there's a certain separation between Italian and Tyrolean clubs, and I don't think that the integration of Tyrolean clubs into the Austrian system can be effectively utilized in Italy.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Domestically there's a certain separation between Italian and Tyrolean clubs, and I don't think that the integration of Tyrolean clubs into the Austrian system can be effectively utilized in Italy.

Well even if it benefits only part of the country's hockey community it's still something. Having said that, I don't think that is necessarily true. Alps HL is mostly dominated by Italian teams, it's hard to call it integration into Austrian system. At the same time, I don't think Bolzano prefers let's say a Finn to a native Italian. Sure partial separation exists but is it that major?

 

[Albatros]

I would say it depends on the composition of the organization, a Tyrolean organization that shares more culturally with their partners in Austria to start with has it easy going where the grass is greener.

 

[tony d]

Best of luck to them. They're one of those tertiary hockey nations I'd like to see succeed.