Is USA hockey's window smaller than we think ?

[CarolinaBlueJacket]

I think we can all agree that Canada just crushed the US in the final and most American citizens are devastated by this lopsided loss at the hands of a far superior people. The sad thing for the US is that is as close as they will get to Canada. Canada will also dominate every sport at the summer and winter Olympics, basketball, baseball, football and on and on. These are sad days for America.

I would like to see a couple more posts about how the US hockey team is in serious trouble. No way it can be fully explored in the 5 existing threads.

 

[JianYang]

The US will always be a contender. Maybe small fluctuations here and there but I find the timing of this question to be odd.

It started in 1996 and they never really left as far as having a roster good enough to be a contender to win.

 

[Flukeshot]

Just based on population and it's just a matter of time before the US surpass Canada.

 

[JianYang]

The best athletes in Canada want to be hockey players. That’s not the case in the US.

I don't think this stands as true as it once did.

Canada has made significant advancement in other team sports.

They will have a contending team in hockey for a long time coming, but the talent is more diversified than ever.

 

[Ratsreign]

The only free ice, is the outdoor rinks, if that’s what you mean. This year has been great for that, the previous 2, not as much.

Yes, that’s what I mean.

 

[JianYang]

No doubt about that. But, a big part of it being their national sport is because their homeland is the Great White North. All can go skate outside, and play hockey all day long. What a country!!

Lacrosse is the official national sport, but hockey is far more popular.

USA has more registered players than Canada, and young people don't really gravitate towards hockey the way they used to, particularly in the metropolitan areas.

 

[PettersonHughes]

Canadian here, if anything I'm feeling threatened by the States as a powerhouse. These are just some of their emerging guys who are 27 or younger:

#1 C's: Matthews (26), J. Hughes (22), Eichel (27); other candidates - Tage (26), Larkin (27), Cooley (19)
Top-6 wings: Tkachuks (26/ 24), J-Rob (24), Keller (25), Boeser (26), Boldy (22), Connor (27), DeBrincat (26), Caufield (22)...
Top D: Q. Hughes (24), Werenski (26), Fox (25), L. Hughes (20), McAvoy (26), Faber (21)...


Goalies (28 or younger): Otter (25), Demko (28), Swayman (25), Wolf (22), Woll (25), Stolarz (27) => even Hellebuyck is only 30

 

[mogs]

It's been so long since we've had international hockey that people forget how tournaments work. If you win in the round robin and lose in the final, that means you lost. If you lose in the round robin and win in the final, you win. If you say "the series is 1-1", that means your team lost.

 

[Fatass]

I don't think this stands as true as it once did.

Canada has made significant advancement in other team sports.

They will have a contending team in hockey for a long time coming, but the talent is more diversified than ever.

Hockey is King in Canada because our best athletes, who of course play other sports too as kids, focus on hockey as they get older if they prove to be good enough. It’s why Canada has the elite players the US doesn’t have. The US top athletes play football, baseball, basketball when they turn to one sport.
More kids play soccer in both countries than any other sport. But the best athletes move to their preferred sport if they are good enough. Then soccer is left with the guys who weren’t good enough for hockey, football, basketball, baseball.

Canadian here, if anything I'm feeling threatened by the States as a powerhouse. These are just some of their emerging guys who are 27 or younger:

#1 C's: Matthews (26), J. Hughes (22), Eichel (27); other candidates - Tage (26), Larkin (27), Cooley (19)
Top-6 wings: Tkachuks (26/ 24), J-Rob (24), Keller (25), Boeser (26), Boldy (22), Connor (27), DeBrincat (26), Caufield (22)...
Top D: Q. Hughes (24), Werenski (26), Fox (25), L. Hughes (20), McAvoy (26), Faber (21)...


Goalies (28 or younger): Otter (25), Demko (28), Swayman (25), Wolf (22), Woll (25), Stolarz (27) => even Hellebuyck is only 30

Other than Quinn Hughes are any of these US guys at the level of McDavid, McKinnon, Makar?

 

[Banjo Cat]

I think we can all agree that Canada just crushed the US in the final and most American citizens are devastated by this lopsided loss at the hands of a far superior people. The sad thing for the US is that is as close as they will get to Canada. Canada will also dominate every sport at the summer and winter Olympics, basketball, baseball, football and on and on. These are sad days for America.

I would like to see a couple more posts about how the US hockey team is in serious trouble. No way it can be fully explored in the 5 existing threads.

I think it's obvious no one really was dominant here. Might as well just ignore people who won't admit it. They never will. Both teams played really well in a very tight game.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The US lost in overtime to an absolutely stacked Canada team. And they won the first game. Arguably outplayed Canada overall in the game as well. I don't think the discrepancy in coaching is all that significant.

Nah the coaching is absolute shit. A lot of US players weren't playing well, their idiotic game plan in the first game is why so many were injured in the rematch and why they went 0-2 after.

A coach has a short tournament and lost the plot.

That's entirely Mike Sullivan's coaching. He plays checkers when the game has always been chess.

Mcdavid didn't have a great game until the goal, but a good coach knows you have an insane talent and you give him chances on the big stage. You know what a coach doesn't do?

Healthy scratch the best goal scorer for Americans this season for a player that is on pace for half the totals he put up last year. That's a classic Sullivan move. It's more comical he hasn't got any flack and typical. All I'm seeing is articles about how players on the US let them down, it's more about how poorly they were used.

 

[Czechboy]

Czechs were renowned under achievers against the US in BOB in an era they should have won.

1972 Olympics lose to US which ad 16 year old Mark Howe and 20 year old Ftorek

1976 Tied Team USA (Called Team Useless by Canadian Media) 4-4

1980 Routed by College All Stars (Don't you or VID feel bad, 17 years earlier Lombardi's great Packer team lost to the NCAA All-Stars)

1981 Lost to Team USA in Canada Cup

1984 Lost to Team USA in Canada Cup

And? This thread isn't about the Czech window (that shit closed around 2005). No one is posting if the Czech time is now.

But, if you really want to have this chat.. since 1996 (last US gold at a senior level) the Czechs won 7 Skodas (better than Russia) and a best on best Olympics to 0 medals by the USA at a senior level event. And I totally agree the US have been better in this stretch but we got more medals in the USA's best period (so far) and in our worst period (hoping it ends but it may also get worse). US seems to having a winning big games issue like Russia does because both groups of posters keep pointing out round robin wins and not gold medal victories (like the Canadian posters can do)

This thread is about that US window

So you beat us in 1972.. did you win the tourney?
So you beat us in 1976.. did you win the tourney?
You beat us in 1980 and WON the tourney!!! Miracle on ice is a great story and I'm pretty sure you beat the living shit out of us, no? 7-2 or something like that?
1981 Canada Cup was won by who?
1984 Canada Cup was won by who?

To your one point though.. what is BOB? And the Czechoslovkian teams won a medal at every World's from 1972 to 1984 yet their Olympics were a little worse and they had an advantage.. I'd say they choked at a few Olympics for sure!

3 medals to 2 in those 4 Olympics. However, I'd trade 1 bronze and 2 silvers for a silver and a gold any day of the week!

FWIW - the US teams had more success in this stretch (1972 to 1984) than they have in the 2000s which is crazy.

So since you want to use 1972 to 1984

Skoda medals
12 to 0

Olympic Medals
3 to 2
Canada Cup medals

1 to 0

Grand total is 16 to 2 for senior events from 1972 to 1984 using Olympics, Worlds and Canada Cups. I'd give the US the edge in Olympics in this frame though!

 

[Czechboy]

We all understand the point. Play this series 100 times and Canada wins 40,
US 30 Sweden 20 and healthy Finland 10

That's not how Gold Medals are won. They are won in a Gold match after winning a quarter and a semi. Canada seems to be extremely good at that. US, not so much.

 

[Summer Rose]

It's been so long since we've had international hockey that people forget how tournaments work. If you win in the round robin and lose in the final, that means you lost. If you lose in the round robin and win in the final, you win. If you say "the series is 1-1", that means your team lost.

Applies to sports in general but with different numbers sometimes. For example, in my opinion, if someone tries to point at the Stanley Cup champion and says that they beat them in the regular season series, they look pretty dumb.

 

[Czechboy]

Okay, but I just think this significant data you claim is actually a dearth of data. I don't know what like 2002 has to do with a game in 2025 when nobody on either team was even in the NHL in that year and some players on each team were being born that year.

We have only had a few best on best tournaments in the last 15 years. That's the only data period I would say is a fair measure for current best on bests, and I simply don't think Men's Worlds is a measure for it either (not disputing your facts about that, but don't believe it's important as you don't believe juniors or draft picks, which okay I grant).

I don't think we actually have very much data, at all, on what the current Best on Best landscape looks like. We only have a few tournaments where the current generation have taken place, we have some flawed structures (due to wars and stupid NHL concepts), so it complicates the picture even further.

I don't think we need to analyze it so analytically. I think it's fine to ballpark the rosters and go from there over who will win what game. I don't think anyone is taking anything away from Canada's past accomplishments. No one has said they weren't the clear 1A (with absolutely no 1B) in the past.

Now? It's hard to know because of what I said above (lack of best on best recently), but I think if you ballpark the rosters you could come to the conclusion that it might not be what it previously was. Whether you want to say that USA and Canada are co-favorites or Canada is the 1A to USA 1B, my current conclusion is that it's very close. If you want to say USA is like 4th or 5th and Sweden, Finland, whoever are ahead, please use your own money and not mine when betting on the Olympics next year.


Think whatever you want. I'm not really bothered. If Thursday meant a lot to you, I'm glad for you. Really have no hostilities about any of this.

US have to win something more than once to be a 1B. The Russian and US posters just keep saying they are right there neck and neck with Canada and the results don't show that. It is always Canada and the next one. It's like a Rocky movie. Canada is Rocky. The opponent changes but it's always Rocky against someone.

International hockey is a 20 man roster of men against another 20 man roster of men. They may not all play in the NHL. You have get out of a group stage, win a quarter, win a semi and then win the gold. A LOT can go wrong in that span. A lot can go right too (hot goalie, lucky PP, TSN Camera).

When USA (or Russia or anyone else) starts doing that as consistently as Canada then I'll start calling them the 1B or the 1A. Currently, there is zero evidence that the US men can win Gold medal games in the 2000's. The juniors can sure kick some ass though! And their NHL players are indeed amazing!

None of that gets you a gold medal at a mens event though. Next chance is 2026 and then 2028. Happy to revisit it then. I'll go on record and say (and everyone please bookmark this) that those 2 finals will not be Canada and US both times. Happy to bet my money on that.

 

[Jumptheshark]

IS Canada's window small? Like Canada, the US have a bunch of prospects coming up

 

[Czechboy]

Applies to sports in general but with different numbers sometimes. For example, in my opinion, if someone tries to point at the Stanley Cup champion and says that they beat them in the regular season series, they look pretty dumb.

That was my analogy too!

I'm an Oil fan and the NUCKS anhilated us last year at the start of the season. 3-0 and something like 21 goals to 5.lol It was a slaughter! Then we met in playoffs and elimiinated them. Of course that is where all the excuses come from the round robin win and tied 1-1 crowd - coach is an idiot, few guys were injuried, goalie was hurt. And that's my point.. winning a gold or a cup requires a lot of things to go your way. Maybe wait to the end to brag and not in the regular season/round robin.

 

[Czechboy]

IS Canada's window small? Like Canada, the US have a bunch of prospects coming up

Canada is the window.

 

[Czechboy]

It's been so long since we've had international hockey that people forget how tournaments work. If you win in the round robin and lose in the final, that means you lost. If you lose in the round robin and win in the final, you win. If you say "the series is 1-1", that means your team lost.

I was so happy to find out my Czechs tied the series with Connor Bedard and Canada at the World Juniors a few years ago. We beat them in the round robin and lost in the gold match. TIE!lmao

All this time, like a moron, I kept thinking we lost to Canada in the finals and they won. Silly me!

Since I'm on it.lol I am in absolute shock a Russian poster hasn't called Nagano a tie because they beat us in the round robin in Nagano and we beat them in the gold match.lol

 

[Summer Rose]

That was my analogy too!

I'm an Oil fan and the NUCKS anhilated us last year at the start of the season. 3-0 and something like 21 goals to 5.lol It was a slaughter! Then we met in playoffs and elimiinated them. Of course that is where all the excuses come from the round robin win and tied 1-1 crowd - coach is an idiot, few guys were injuried, goalie was hurt. And that's my point.. winning a gold or a cup requires a lot of things to go your way. Maybe wait to the end to brag and not in the regular season/round robin.

Racing is also a fun analogy to use. Burn a bunch of rubber early to set the fastest lap times early, and you run the risk of needing extra pit stops that will cost you time or even not finishing the race at all.

 

[Czechboy]

Racing is also a fun analogy to use. Burn a bunch of rubber early to set the fastest lap times early, and you run the risk of needing extra pit stops that will cost you time or even not finishing the race at all.

So I watched the first 2 fast and furious movies with my boy last night.. and this was used a few times. They used the NOS too early.lol

 

[JianYang]

Hockey is King in Canada because our best athletes, who of course play other sports too as kids, focus on hockey as they get older if they prove to be good enough. It’s why Canada has the elite players the US doesn’t have. The US top athletes play football, baseball, basketball when they turn to one sport.
More kids play soccer in both countries than any other sport. But the best athletes move to their preferred sport if they are good enough. Then soccer is left with the guys who weren’t good enough for hockey, football, basketball, baseball.


Other than Quinn Hughes are any of these US guys at the level of McDavid, McKinnon, Makar?

I dont know about that. I don't think Jonathan David, Alphonso Davies, shai gilgeous Alexander, or Jamal Murray ever played hockey.

Those are just a few examples, but all of the above are world class athletes that didn't touch a puck.

The demographics of this country have changed alot over the last several decades.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

No ?

This isn't an NHL team that has been trading their futures away to win now.

The States can grab from anyone in their country pool.

Chris Kreider who's pretty useless now/this season is easily replaced as an example. It's not like they took him because he's the best they could do, just a poor decision because of his history with team USA

 

[KillerMillerTime]

That's not how Gold Medals are won. They are won in a Gold match after winning a quarter and a semi. Canada seems to be extremely good at that. US, not so much.

There has been one BOB in 9 years. No one knows how these group of players
are going to play into the future. What happened in 2002, 2010, 2014, 2016 had zero bearing Thursday and will have zero bearing in 2026, Stop pretending like you do because you don't. This isn't a process of osmosis...lol.

If you sit here and try to tell me you play that game 100 times that Canada wins 75 times I'll say you should be fitted for a straight jacket.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

US have to win something more than once to be a 1B. The Russian and US posters just keep saying they are right there neck and neck with Canada and the results don't show that. It is always Canada and the next one. It's like a Rocky movie. Canada is Rocky. The opponent changes but it's always Rocky against someone.

International hockey is a 20 man roster of men against another 20 man roster of men. They may not all play in the NHL. You have get out of a group stage, win a quarter, win a semi and then win the gold. A LOT can go wrong in that span. A lot can go right too (hot goalie, lucky PP, TSN Camera).

When USA (or Russia or anyone else) starts doing that as consistently as Canada then I'll start calling them the 1B or the 1A. Currently, there is zero evidence that the US men can win Gold medal games in the 2000's. The juniors can sure kick some ass though! And their NHL players are indeed amazing!

None of that gets you a gold medal at a mens event though. Next chance is 2026 and then 2028. Happy to revisit it then. I'll go on record and say (and everyone please bookmark this) that those 2 finals will not be Canada and US both times. Happy to bet my money on that.

Care to tell us how the 1972 & 1980 US Teams beat Czechoslovakia in The Olympics? How did the 1979 US Team tie Czechoslovakia 2-2? That US Team
was thrown together from NCAA Teams and some NHL players. Two out of the three teams faced way, way worse odds not getting beaten.

Canada will not win 3 straight events between 2025-2028. Not going to happen as they are no where near as dominant as Team USA Basketball, apples to oranges.