Is USA hockey's window smaller than we think ?

[GirardSpinorama]

So what? You need three to five times times the players to compete against the smaller population who's best athletes play those sports while yours don't, thats why. Lot easier to come up with 8 elite players sp than 20-40.

You have millions to pull from! Its sad that none of the american states can beat canada at basketball when theres 1 NBA team.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

We’ll, then you should remember that the Americans did make massive strides from the 80s into the 90s, where before the mid 90s, despite what happened in lake placid in 1980, no one took the Americans as serious contenders. In the 1991 final, it felt like a letdown, and only the political climate in the Soviet Union kept the final from being the traditional Canada vs Russia.

By 1996, the competition level was completely different, and Canada, to their overall detriment, built a team for Nagano 1998 specifically to beat the Americans. Since then, other than few anomalies, Canada and USA have clearly been the top two in hockey.

Well the gap pre 1980 was enormous but what enabled the US to reach that level was the impact Orr had in New England. He created the greatest impactful sports culture shift in New England history. Might be hard to believe but greater than Brady did in football in New England and Ruth did in Boston. The perfect storm of all time.
The leading elements were seen in 1980 with Craig, O'Callahan & Silk.and completely in 1996.

 

[Czechboy]

The two teams played a two game series and split it.

seriously?

So the Czechs split the World Juniors with Canada in Bedard's year? We won round robin game, they won gold medal game. Never once did that feel like a 'split'. And does that mean Sweden is better than US because they won their series 1-0 at this tourney?

The big difference is that Canada very consistently wins those finals games. That's the difference in my eyes.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Can texas best soccer players beat team canada's best?

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Can texas best soccer players beat team canada's best?

No they are too busy playing football\baseball , the same seasons for soccer...lol.

 

[Czechboy]

But I'm not saying USA is better than Canada. I think the countries are a coin flip right now (that's how you get a two game series where each wins one, separated by one goal, and a few shots).

I'm not going to argue you're wrong about the facts. USA hasn't won any Best on Best. But it's a little deceiving because we didn't get Best on Best in 2018 or 2022. The 2016 Best on Best wasn't really best on best (Bettman's modified version) and this 2025 tournament was also a modified version without one of the big 5 (and country's weren't allowed to pick non-NHL'ers and teams/players were opting out to preserve their NHL season). Did they even give out medals for this tournament? I truthfully don't even know asking you this question.

So it's a little deceiving to say USA hasn't won Best on Bests. They weren't as good in the 90's or 00's, and we've essentially had 1-3 (depending on your definition) best to bests in the last 15 years. I know you like to bring up the Mens Worlds, and I'm not saying it's wrong. It's true, but I don't see how that actually goes to which nation is better when we never see nations field their best rosters. I wish they did, but it's a flawed, at best, measure of which are the best hockey nations.

I think it was a shitty little trophy and case of Coors light. I actually have no idea.

Best on Bests since 1996 are 1998, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010, 2014. That's 6 by count. But I didn't say best on bests I said any senior event. If US is a coin flip with Canada the gold medal count is really not showing that at all. I'm guessing 10 - 0 but I'm a Czech fan and don't feel like looking up all the Canuck Golds.lol

This argument is the same as the Russian one - both nations have no wins and both nations are convinced they would've won any best on best from 2015 to 2025. While having very limited senior success from 2000 to 2015. It keeps coming up Canada.

The arguments seem to be more about who has more NHL players, draft picks and kids titles. The senior argument with gold results is much harder to make.

The reason using round robin results isn't that useful is because Sweden beat the US and were undefeated against them in the tounament. The medals are handed out at the end and that's where the best will be found.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Can texas best soccer players beat team canada's best?

Can Team Nova Scotia beat Team Massachusetts in hockey? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

seriously?

So the Czechs split the World Juniors with Canada in Bedard's year? We won round robin game, they won gold medal game. Never once did that feel like a 'split'. And does that mean Sweden is better than US because they won their series 1-0 at this tourney?

The big difference is that Canada very consistently wins those finals games. That's the difference in my eyes.

I can only speak to what I feel.

I was really excited for the game on Saturday. Paid full attention to it, which I almost never do for any sports. It was the first USA vs. Canada game we saw in forever where the best players were playing. I was also very excited for the first game for the USA against Finland because it was the first game for the best American players in forever.

For the Thursday game I didn't even know it was played on Thursday (I initially thought Wednesday) and I was scrolling my phone the whole game. Felt no nerves towards winning or losing. Felt little/no emotions through the key moments throughout the game.

I don't even know if they gave out medals. It just wasn't that important to me. Maybe it was to you or others, but it felt overkill to me to play two games in 5 days between the same teams in a four team made up tournament. Like I was excited to watch two great teams play and to see international hockey (I watched every game and liked to see all four teams), but the "winning a trophy" thing wasn't really a main thought in my mind.

 

[swoopster]

-23 Smith& Leonard were drafted high and neither of them are yet making an impact for team USA
-22 Cooley& Gauthier were drafted high end neither of them are making an impact yet

Now add all the Hughes brothers, Matthews, Tkachuks, especially Brady, McAvoy, Fox etc who are well under 30 and USA is going nowhere

Canada on the other hand had lot of players well into their 30’s on this roster or around 30. They were battle tested so to speak and USA is few years away from having that experience as well

There is nothing wrong with the future of USA Hockey. There is one area of concern and I would like to hear from those above us ( yes to the victors go the spoils ). My fear in the US that hockey is becoming an exclusive sport for those who can $$$ afford it only . That in itself reduces the talent pool. This is a far cry from opportunities presented to me growing up. I see far too many parents couging up too much money to keep that almost impossible dream alive. What say you up there.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

I think it was a shitty little trophy and case of Coors light. I actually have no idea.

Best on Bests since 1996 are 1998, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010, 2014. That's 6 by count. But I didn't say best on bests I said any senior event. If US is a coin flip with Canada the gold medal count is really not showing that at all. I'm guessing 10 - 0 but I'm a Czech fan and don't feel like looking up all the Canuck Golds.lol

This argument is the same as the Russian one - both nations have no wins and both nations are convinced they would've won any best on best from 2015 to 2025. While having very limited senior success from 2000 to 2015. It keeps coming up Canada.

The arguments seem to be more about who has more NHL players, draft picks and kids titles. The senior argument with gold results is much harder to make.

The reason using round robin results isn't that useful is because Sweden beat the US and were undefeated against them in the tounament. The medals are handed out at the end and that's where the best will be found.

Czechs were renowned under achievers against the US in BOB in an era they should have won.

1972 Olympics lose to US which ad 16 year old Mark Howe and 20 year old Ftorek

1976 Tied Team USA (Called Team Useless by Canadian Media) 4-4

1980 Routed by College All Stars (Don't you or VID feel bad, 17 years earlier Lombardi's great Packer team lost to the NCAA All-Stars)

1981 Lost to Team USA in Canada Cup

1984 Lost to Team USA in Canada Cup

 

[MNRube]

This is wrong, more and more are turning to soccer and basketball because of changing demographics and cost....and we are seeing more Canadians excelling in both....maybe the US should start worrying about that?

I assure nobody in the U.S. is worried.

Canada has basically the same amount of registered hockey players as the U.S. despite the population differences and most are in nascent programs with limited competition so it’s not like Canadians are inherently superior.

Canada is still a better hockey nation, and Matthews finishing in OT would not have changed that.

Hockey is still a niche sport in the entire U.S except in a handful of communities in MN, MI, Buffalo and MA.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Can Team Nova Scotia beat Team Massachusetts in hockey? Inquiring minds want to know.

Probably.

I can only speak to what I feel.

I was really excited for the game on Saturday. Paid full attention to it, which I almost never do for any sports. It was the first USA vs. Canada game we saw in forever where the best players were playing. I was also very excited for the first game for the USA against Finland because it was the first game for the best American players in forever.

For the Thursday game I didn't even know it was played on Thursday (I initially thought Wednesday) and I was scrolling my phone the whole game. Felt no nerves towards winning or losing. Felt little/no emotions through the key moments throughout the game.

I don't even know if they gave out medals. It just wasn't that important to me. Maybe it was to you or others, but it felt overkill to me to play two games in 5 days between the same teams in a four team made up tournament. Like I was excited to watch two great teams play and to see international hockey (I watched every game and liked to see all four teams), but the "winning a trophy" thing wasn't really a main thought in my mind.

That is called copium. I'm just calling it how I see it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

And most Canadian kids will always have an advantage in the free ice available over the vast majority of US kids.

The only free ice, is the outdoor rinks, if that’s what you mean. This year has been great for that, the previous 2, not as much.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think it was a shitty little trophy and case of Coors light. I actually have no idea.

Best on Bests since 1996 are 1998, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010, 2014. That's 6 by count. But I didn't say best on bests I said any senior event. If US is a coin flip with Canada the gold medal count is really not showing that at all. I'm guessing 10 - 0 but I'm a Czech fan and don't feel like looking up all the Canuck Golds.lol

This argument is the same as the Russian one - both nations have no wins and both nations are convinced they would've won any best on best from 2015 to 2025. While having very limited senior success from 2000 to 2015. It keeps coming up Canada.

The arguments seem to be more about who has more NHL players, draft picks and kids titles. The senior argument with gold results is much harder to make.

The reason using round robin results isn't that useful is because Sweden beat the US and were undefeated against them in the tounament. The medals are handed out at the end and that's where the best will be found.

Okay, but I just think this significant data you claim is actually a dearth of data. I don't know what like 2002 has to do with a game in 2025 when nobody on either team was even in the NHL in that year and some players on each team were being born that year.

We have only had a few best on best tournaments in the last 15 years. That's the only data period I would say is a fair measure for current best on bests, and I simply don't think Men's Worlds is a measure for it either (not disputing your facts about that, but don't believe it's important as you don't believe juniors or draft picks, which okay I grant).

I don't think we actually have very much data, at all, on what the current Best on Best landscape looks like. We only have a few tournaments where the current generation have taken place, we have some flawed structures (due to wars and stupid NHL concepts), so it complicates the picture even further.

I don't think we need to analyze it so analytically. I think it's fine to ballpark the rosters and go from there over who will win what game. I don't think anyone is taking anything away from Canada's past accomplishments. No one has said they weren't the clear 1A (with absolutely no 1B) in the past.

Now? It's hard to know because of what I said above (lack of best on best recently), but I think if you ballpark the rosters you could come to the conclusion that it might not be what it previously was. Whether you want to say that USA and Canada are co-favorites or Canada is the 1A to USA 1B, my current conclusion is that it's very close. If you want to say USA is like 4th or 5th and Sweden, Finland, whoever are ahead, please use your own money and not mine when betting on the Olympics next year.

That is called copium. I'm just calling it how I see it.

Think whatever you want. I'm not really bothered. If Thursday meant a lot to you, I'm glad for you. Really have no hostilities about any of this.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

seriously?

So the Czechs split the World Juniors with Canada in Bedard's year? We won round robin game, they won gold medal game. Never once did that feel like a 'split'. And does that mean Sweden is better than US because they won their series 1-0 at this tourney?

The big difference is that Canada very consistently wins those finals games. That's the difference in my eyes.

We all understand the point. Play this series 100 times and Canada wins 40,
US 30 Sweden 20 and healthy Finland 10

 

[Frank Drebin]

The two teams played a two game series and split it.

So Sweden is better than USA?

 

[CashMash]

To me coaching makes all the difference. Cooper didn't spread the minutes in one game and adjusted and fixed it. Sullivan is entirely incapable of this even with a stacked roster.

Sullivan is the coach for the Olympics too, so I don't expect jack shit out of him there, especially with Sweden and Finland getting more depth with Euro leagues and the addition of Czechia etc.

I'd say the US isn't even worth wasting time discussing until they can figure out how to pick a proper coach.

And hopefully fewer injuries and Saros in net. Wouldn't have mattered this tournament. Best teams were in the finals, but I am optimistic about the future.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Think whatever you want. I'm not really bothered. If Thursday meant a lot to you, I'm glad for you. Really have no hostilities about any of this.

Thanks! Thursday did mean a lot, its ingrained in my hockey memory. Met a lot of Americans in Boston, some who graciously accepted defeat and others smoked a whole bunch of copium, but in the end theres no hostility.

 

[MNRube]

So Sweden is better than USA?

Wouldn’t be a shame if they were. Have you seen their roster?

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Probably.

You had to think about it though and it could be a coin flip because I don't know how many good or decent D men are from Nova Scotia. Despite McKinnon, Crosby, Marchand, Killorn you still couldn't say yes.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

You had to think about it though and it could be a coin flip because I don't know how many good or decent D men are from Nova Scotia. Despite McKinnon, Crosby, Marchand, Killorn you still couldn't say yes.

Justin Barron baby!

 

[KillerMillerTime]

View attachment 980869


You look GREAT for 70 !!!!

I thought you were in your early 40's.

Who is playing for the US in those tourneys? I have never heard of them.

I agree you should be so lucky!!!

 

[a mangy Meowth]

but in the end theres no hostility.

Umm okay buddy, tell that to my feelings which you hurt

 

[cvaicunas]

This is wrong, more and more are turning to soccer and basketball because of changing demographics and cost....and we are seeing more Canadians excelling in both....maybe the US should start worrying about that?

Few in the US care for soccer, so no worry there. It'll take decades for Canada to catch the US in basketball

In terms of development, no. They’ve got the maximum out of their player pool and have the best team they have ever had at the moment. That being said, perhaps there needs to be questions at coaching or mentality level if the best American team ever assembled could not get it over the line in the clutch against the the weakest best on best Team Canada I’ve seen in my lifetime

Perhaps it goes to the mentality of the NTDP; I was at a lot of the select camps and regional camps when I was younger. Having lived and played in both countries, I find the USA (at least the messaging from the NTDP people) was that development and pushing players to uncomfortable positions was much more important to them than their win loss record. That is a stark contrast from junior in Canada, where it is a business and winning is prioritised at all costs. That would be my anecdotal theory, but I’m not sure. The USA has to take advantage of this group whilst they’re in their prime though

Q Hughes was not even playing.... Can't say this was the best team when he was not playing.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

There is nothing wrong with the future of USA Hockey. There is one area of concern and I would like to hear from those above us ( yes to the victors go the spoils ). My fear in the US that hockey is becoming an exclusive sport for those who can $$$ afford it only . That in itself reduces the talent pool. This is a far cry from opportunities presented to me growing up. I see far too many parents couging up too much money to keep that almost impossible dream alive. What say you up there.

The push to play at a Select level has permeated Basketball, Baseball, Hockey & Soccer. Its what parents will do to give their kid a perceived edge and its a money making endeavor for a lot of people. Hockey is so expensive now its already
shutdown lots of blue collar and white collar workers

I have to admit I am somewhat guilty as my son played some AAA soccer as a kid and made AAA Hockey teams as an alternate. I tried to get him to tryout for
AAU Baseball also but he told me to buzz off...lol.

He eventually concentrated on hockey\baseball and had interest from a couple of NCAA D3 programs.