Is this shady or normal for hockey parents?

[Slats432]

Interesting discussion about church. I have never had a player miss practice or a game due to a church event. Hopefully if I did they would discuss it preseason so it could be accommodating to both player and team.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Interesting discussion about church. I have never had a player miss practice or a game due to a church event. Hopefully if I did they would discuss it preseason so it could be accommodating to both player and team.

@jetsmooseice is the one who said if he couldn't make a Sunday morning service he'd go to a different church on a different day to attend a Mass. That is a very old-school Catholic kind of sensibility - that the important thing is to attend Mass - any Mass. And of course perhaps the most important part of attending Mass is receiving Communion. It's also a lot easier that the Catholic Church is the world's largest organized religion, with any city probably having multiple Catholic Churches.

When I was attending services regularly it was at an evangelical church. They can be much more individual focused around the specific pastor. At least in my experience they also only have one service per week, and in its own way the service (while important) is not as important as it is to Catholics because Communion isn't typically involved (and doesn't have the same religious significance it does to Catholics). And even though the Church I attended was part of a larger network of Churches the churches weren't connected the same way Catholic churches are.

Church in one way is kind of like minor hockey - it can become a lifestyle. I mean yes you can just attend Sunday mornings and that's it - but you'll be encouraged to do more - retreats, mens or ladies events, volunteering.

As you know with hockey once you start getting into higher ages and levels it becomes pretty intensive - in particular by the time kids come to your team. So not surprised it hasn't been an issue for you.



As fraught as talking about religion is, if I'm this deep I might as well also bring up immigration. These days the most religious communities tend to be immigrant communities (and note that @patnyrnyg mentioned that kid's family was Korean). Hockey, of course, tends to be most popular with families long-established in Canada, although over time and generations most immigrant families tend to become more like "typical" Canadians - less likely to go to Church and more likely to play hockey.

(and I say Canada just because the US hockey experience is different and not one I'm as familiar with)

 

[waitin425]

It's been said here before, but man this is the nature of the competetive world. nothing shady about this in the slightest. The team would cur your kid in a heartbeat without losing sleep about it. it's what's best for the team. Therefore....any parent out there should really do what's best for their kids.

There is NO LOYALTY in competitive sports. Zero.

 

[patnyrnyg]

It's been said here before, but man this is the nature of the competetive world. nothing shady about this in the slightest. The team would cur your kid in a heartbeat without losing sleep about it. it's what's best for the team. Therefore....any parent out there should really do what's best for their kids.

There is NO LOYALTY in competitive sports. Zero.

Agreed, but this case was different. Rules are different where I am, but once you sign, that is it. If what the OP describes happened with my team, our organization could block the kids from playing anywhere else.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It's been said here before, but man this is the nature of the competetive world. nothing shady about this in the slightest. The team would cur your kid in a heartbeat without losing sleep about it. it's what's best for the team. Therefore....any parent out there should really do what's best for their kids.

There is NO LOYALTY in competitive sports. Zero.

There's "loyalty", and there's "shady".

I agree you don't owe any team your loyalty. If you or your kid think you have a better opportunity with a different team, you should take it. It doesn't matter if you've been with the same team/organization for years - they won't be afraid to cut you if they think someone else is better.

"shady" though - that (I think) means honesty. That people can trust your word. It should apply also to teams, coaches, parents, and players. I don't think teams and players owe each other loyalty - but they do owe each other honesty.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

There's "loyalty", and there's "shady".

I agree you don't owe any team your loyalty. If you or your kid think you have a better opportunity with a different team, you should take it. It doesn't matter if you've been with the same team/organization for years - they won't be afraid to cut you if they think someone else is better.

"shady" though - that (I think) means honesty. That people can trust your word. It should apply also to teams, coaches, parents, and players. I don't think teams and players owe each other loyalty - but they do owe each other honesty.

Agreed, but this case was different. Rules are different where I am, but once you sign, that is it. If what the OP describes happened with my team, our organization could block the kids from playing anywhere else.

This definitely wasn’t normal behavior for even crazy hockey parents, as I initially tried to excuse it away.

It’s really blown up into something quite ugly since I made my OP.

Just so much anger and feelings of betrayal from not only Team A’s parents, but the players as well.

Many friendships have been ruined and one of the kids who left got punched in the head, and the father of the attacker justified it (another dumbass hockey dad of course)

Kid who got punched is a sweet kid who was one of the rare few boys who was always kind to my daughter on this team and a previous team during Pee-Wee/Squirt.

My daughter now sees her former coach she used to love as a “sleaze ball” and so do his other players who are on Team A.

Just all so unfortunate, and it could have all been avoided with simple honesty.

 

[patnyrnyg]

This definitely wasn’t normal behavior for even crazy hockey parents, as I initially tried to excuse it away.

It’s really blown up into something quite ugly since I made my OP.

Just so much anger and feelings of betrayal from not only Team A’s parents, but the players as well.

Many friendships have been ruined and one of the kids who left got punched in the head, and the father of the attacker justified it (another dumbass hockey dad of course)

Kid who got punched is a sweet kid who was one of the rare few boys who was always kind to my daughter on this team and a previous team during Pee-Wee/Squirt.

My daughter now sees her former coach she used to love as a “sleaze ball” and so do his other players who are on Team A.

Just all so unfortunate, and it could have all been avoided with simple honesty.

I also blame the rules. Having them sign a "commitment" contract that they could break and only lose their deposit, allows this to happen. They sign and can still shop around.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I also blame the rules. Having them sign a "commitment" contract that they could break and only lose their deposit, allows this to happen. They sign and can still shop around.

You can't really do it any other way. You can't draft a contract that would force someone to play for a team against their will (in particular involving kids). All you can do is impose a penalty clause, which they did (the deposit).

Even if you could design such a contract - that would involve litigation, which gets expensive for everyone involved.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I also blame the rules. Having them sign a "commitment" contract that they could break and only lose their deposit, allows this to happen. They sign and can still shop around.

Ya, where I live there aren’t district lines. So kids from all over the area can basically play wherever they like.

Losing a commitment fee of 1k should in theory keep dishonest people from going back on their word, but the kids who left, their parents are quite wealthy and don’t care about the money.

At that point it’s about your integrity.

It’s funny because one of the kids who left (one who got punched in the head), last year another team tried to poach him after tryouts.

He went for the ice time when they invited him for the tryout, but his mom told my wife “I’m teaching my son about keeping his word. We signed our commitment and he has to stand by that decision”.

Somehow a year later that no longer matters apparently.

Almost unbelievable how someone could flip flop like that, but here we are.

You can't really do it any other way. You can't draft a contract that would force someone to play for a team against their will (in particular involving kids). All you can do is impose a penalty clause, which they did (the deposit).

Even if you could design such a contract - that would involve litigation, which gets expensive for everyone involved.

The father of the AAA girl who was kicked off my daughter’s team last Nov tried to take the owners to court to get his money back as he paid in full.

Owners said he signed a legally binding contract and would be glad to meet him in court and he backed down.

 

[patnyrnyg]

You can't really do it any other way. You can't draft a contract that would force someone to play for a team against their will (in particular involving kids). All you can do is impose a penalty clause, which they did (the deposit).

Even if you could design such a contract - that would involve litigation, which gets expensive for everyone involved.

Not here. Once you sign, the organization can block you from playing for another organzation. I am not sure if this is a USA Hockey rule or just AAHA (our district). From what I have been told, most orgs will grant the release IF you are paid in full. However, they can also refuse. In reality, they can't force the player to play for them, but can have the player ruled ineligible to play for anyone else.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Ya, where I live there aren’t district lines. So kids from all over the area can basically play wherever they like.

Losing a commitment fee of 1k should in theory keep dishonest people from going back on their word, but the kids who left, their parents are quite wealthy and don’t care about the money.

At that point it’s about your integrity.

It’s funny because one of the kids who left (one who got punched in the head), last year another team tried to poach him after tryouts.

He went for the ice time when they invited him for the tryout, but his mom told my wife “I’m teaching my son about keeping his word. We signed our commitment and he has to stand by that decision”.

Somehow a year later that no longer matters apparently.

Almost unbelievable how someone could flip flop like that, but here we are.



The father of the AAA girl who was kicked off my daughter’s team last Nov tried to take the owners to court to get his money back as he paid in full.

Owners said he signed a legally binding contract and would be glad to meet him in court and he backed down.

We don't have district lines either. Here, orgs charge for tryouts. Have seen anywhere from $50 on low end to $200 on high end for 10U and up. And, it is to prevent kids from coming just for a free skate. I think AAA will charge more, but if you make the team it gets credited towards your tuition in many cases. For them, it is more of a case of they don't want 100 kids showing up where 70 of them are barely A players let alone AAA. I get for some, the $1000 is nothing, but the org should be able to block the player if they so choose.

 

[BruinDust]

We don't have district lines either. Here, orgs charge for tryouts. Have seen anywhere from $50 on low end to $200 on high end for 10U and up. And, it is to prevent kids from coming just for a free skate. I think AAA will charge more, but if you make the team it gets credited towards your tuition in many cases. For them, it is more of a case of they don't want 100 kids showing up where 70 of them are barely A players let alone AAA. I get for some, the $1000 is nothing, but the org should be able to block the player if they so choose.

$200 to tryout for a team? $1000 non-refundable "commitment fees"?

Minor hockey orgs trying to poach players of other nearby organizations?

My entire registration for the 1995-96 minor hockey season was about $250 bucks. 2 games and 1 practice. Any other ice time (travel, rep, try-outs) was an extra $3 per 1 hour session.

The more I read this thread it's pretty clear "minor hockey" is no longer some poor non-for-profit trying to give kids a place to play and socialize and is now big business for parents, coaches, executives, etc. Really sad and disheartening.

 

[patnyrnyg]

$200 to tryout for a team? $1000 non-refundable "commitment fees"?

Minor hockey orgs trying to poach players of other nearby organizations?

My entire registration for the 1995-96 minor hockey season was about $250 bucks. 2 games and 1 practice. Any other ice time (travel, rep, try-outs) was an extra $3 per 1 hour session.

The more I read this thread it's pretty clear "minor hockey" is no longer some poor non-for-profit trying to give kids a place to play and socialize and is now big business for parents, coaches, executives, etc. Really sad and disheartening.

And, in 1990 my parents paid a total of $90 for 4 us to play Little League baseball. I stated why they have tryout fees. All youth sports have changed and have become a business. This is nothing new.

 

[BruinDust]

And, in 1990 my parents paid a total of $90 for 4 us to play Little League baseball. I stated why they have tryout fees. All youth sports have changed and have become a business. This is nothing new.

Even adjusted for inflation it's excessive regardless of the rational. Yes you have to charge something for try-outs/ice time, it ain't free. $200 for a 10-year old to try-out for a team?

I'm not disagreeing with you just saying as an outside observer now who played youth sports, it's really sad that it has become big business and the adults (parent, coaches, execs, owners?) are the priority now, not the kids playing.

I don't have any children involved in youth sports, so it's new to me. I got out of the coaching game 20 years ago it wasn't like that then (at least in my neck of the woods).

 

[patnyrnyg]

Even adjusted for inflation it's excessive regardless of the rational. Yes you have to charge something for try-outs/ice time, it ain't free. $200 for a 10-year old to try-out for a team?

I'm not disagreeing with you just saying as an outside observer now who played youth sports, it's really sad that it has become big business and the adults (parent, coaches, execs, owners?) are the priority now, not the kids playing.

I don't have any children involved in youth sports, so it's new to me. I got out of the coaching game 20 years ago it wasn't like that then (at least in my neck of the woods).

Like I have said before, we don't really have "house" league around here. Rinks will have one, but generally for the novices after they do a season or so of Learn to Play. Ice time fees, ref fees, etc. All costs money. Secondly, the people who run the organization are not doing all this work for free. They are not getting rich off the team, but they deserve something for their time.

 

[BruinDust]

Like I have said before, we don't really have "house" league around here. Rinks will have one, but generally for the novices after they do a season or so of Learn to Play. Ice time fees, ref fees, etc. All costs money. Secondly, the people who run the organization are not doing all this work for free. They are not getting rich off the team, but they deserve something for their time.

When I grew up they were all volunteers except the one guy who looked after the room with jerseys and communal goalie equipment, and the technical director. Refs obvious got paid too but you don't have refs at practice. No one else made a dime. Ice time now in my neck of the woods is between $200 and $250 an hour. I can't comment on ice time fees anywhere else.

Very different environment now it seems.

 

[patnyrnyg]

When I grew up they were all volunteers except the one guy who looked after the room with jerseys and communal goalie equipment, and the technical director. Refs obvious got paid too but you don't have refs at practice. No one else made a dime. Ice time now in my neck of the woods is between $200 and $250 an hour. I can't comment on ice time fees anywhere else.

Very different environment now it seems.

Completely different to the point where there is no point comparing or getting frustrated over what it used to be. This is what is now. 200 and 250 an hour is likely cheap. It would be around here.

And, I am not trying to knock you here. This a conversation we have at work all the time. My kids have no interest in softball, but speaking to co-workers now youth baseball/softball is completely different than when I was a kid. In the 80s, you had Little League and that was it. Sometimes organizations like PAL, YMCA, CYO would have a summer league after the little league season was over. Now? Many kids don't even bother with Little League. They play travel or Cal Ripken.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Even adjusted for inflation it's excessive regardless of the rational. Yes you have to charge something for try-outs/ice time, it ain't free. $200 for a 10-year old to try-out for a team?

I'm not disagreeing with you just saying as an outside observer now who played youth sports, it's really sad that it has become big business and the adults (parent, coaches, execs, owners?) are the priority now, not the kids playing.

I don't have any children involved in youth sports, so it's new to me. I got out of the coaching game 20 years ago it wasn't like that then (at least in my neck of the woods).

I grew up in the inner city and it’s a miracle I played ice hockey to be honest, but I cut grass and had a massive paper route to help make it work.

But hockey costs weren’t bananas then either.

When I was in my early 20s in 2000, I got involved in the “Hockey in the Hood” program, to help disadvantaged kids play ice hockey.

These kids loved the sport, but the fatal flaw back then and now is still the same - cost.

You can give these kids free gear at the entry level, but at some point if they want to move beyond house/ADM, the cost of gear and travel hockey is stupid.

It was 10k for my daughter to play last year, and my wife and I spend the bare minimum because I know how to train her on and off the ice, which costs insane amounts of money.

Most parents we know never played the game and don’t know how to skate, or how to do serious off ice training specific to hockey.

So they pay upwards of an extra 15-20k for private lessons and personal trainers every season.

It’s insane.

And one of my daughter’s teammates has a brother who plays for the top 16u AAA team in the US… his parents pay over 50k every season for his fees, travel and development costs.

Not here. Once you sign, the organization can block you from playing for another organzation. I am not sure if this is a USA Hockey rule or just AAHA (our district). From what I have been told, most orgs will grant the release IF you are paid in full. However, they can also refuse. In reality, they can't force the player to play for them, but can have the player ruled ineligible to play for anyone else.

I don’t believe it’s a USA Hockey thing as I’m in the states and you already know my story of what happened.

 

[BruinDust]

I grew up in the inner city and it’s a miracle I played ice hockey to be honest, but I cut grass and had a massive paper route to help make it work.

But hockey costs weren’t bananas then either.

When I was in my early 20s in 2000, I got involved in the “Hockey in the Hood” program, to help disadvantaged kids play ice hockey.

These kids loved the sport, but the fatal flaw back then and now is still the same - cost.

You can give these kids free gear at the entry level, but at some point if they want to move beyond house/ADM, the cost of gear and travel hockey is stupid.

It was 10k for my daughter to play last year, and my wife and I spend the bare minimum because I know how to train her on and off the ice, which costs insane amounts of money.

Most parents we know never played the game and don’t know how to skate, or how to do serious off ice training specific to hockey.

So they pay upwards of an extra 15-20k for private lessons and personal trainers every season.

It’s insane.

And one of my daughter’s teammates has a brother who plays for the top 16u AAA team in the US… his parents pay over 50k every season for his fees, travel and development costs.



I don’t believe it’s a USA Hockey thing as I’m in the states and you already know my story of what happened.

Equipment costs I find sometimes is a scape-goat for the massive expense that is minor hockey. Not that it isn't crazy expensive compared to years ago (it is) but a savvy parent/shopper can still outfit Johnny or Sally in some pretty darn good equipment by taking their time, doing some research, and buying when the time is right (i.e. when previous lines go on clearance after a year or two). Even sticks, the mid-tier models like the CCM Team sticks are very durable. Problem is, most parents who are willing to shell out 15-20k aren't doing any of that and will just go down to the local hockey shop and buy the latest and the greatest stick/skate/shoulder pad/glove at full price and not blink.

But the overall cost is insane. I had a co-worker who had two boys playing in one of the higher level leagues here in U15-16 about a decade ago and he said overall his hockey bill was about 15k per player per season. My jaw hit the floor.

And they need the off-ice stuff now to keep up with their competition if they have any desires of going anywhere so that part is unavoidable. And if the parent doesn't have the background to do that, it's back to the private training marketplace which is a whole other topic altogether when it comes to youth sports today.

I have no idea what the solution is feels like the toothpaste is already out of the tube.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Equipment costs I find sometimes is a scape-goat for the massive expense that is minor hockey. Not that it isn't crazy expensive compared to years ago (it is) but a savvy parent/shopper can still outfit Johnny or Sally in some pretty darn good equipment by taking their time, doing some research, and buying when the time is right (i.e. when previous lines go on clearance after a year or two). Even sticks, the mid-tier models like the CCM Team sticks are very durable. Problem is, most parents who are willing to shell out 15-20k aren't doing any of that and will just go down to the local hockey shop and buy the latest and the greatest stick/skate/shoulder pad/glove at full price and not blink.

But the overall cost is insane. I had a co-worker who had two boys playing in one of the higher level leagues here in U15-16 about a decade ago and he said overall his hockey bill was about 15k per player per season. My jaw hit the floor.

And they need the off-ice stuff now to keep up with their competition if they have any desires of going anywhere so that part is unavoidable. And if the parent doesn't have the background to do that, it's back to the private training marketplace which is a whole other topic altogether when it comes to youth sports today.

I have no idea what the solution is feels like the toothpaste is already out of the tube.

First year of Squirt travel my daughter played on a team with this kid, let’s call him Cole.

His dad didn’t want to spend a whole lot, so Cole played in old used skates and used a $25 wooden stick.

Kids and even some coaches made fun of his gear, but he just kept getting better and better.

He’s now a AAA player and his dad finally got him better gear, so until two years ago he was a pissing on kids with old school gear.

As far as the on and off ice personal training goes, it’s all part of the billion dollar youth sports industry.

If I didn’t know this game backwards and fwds, there’s no way we could afford to keep up with all the personal training these other kids get.

My dad helps out some with all the normal team fees and travel costs for my daughter’s hockey as it is.

 

[BruinDust]

First year of Squirt travel my daughter played on a team with this kid, let’s call him Cole.

His dad didn’t want to spend a whole lot, so Cole played in old used skates and used a $25 wooden stick.

Kids and even some coaches made fun of his gear, but he just kept getting better and better.

He’s now a AAA player and his dad finally got him better gear, so until two years ago he was a pissing on kids with old school gear.

As far as the on and off ice personal training goes, it’s all part of the billion dollar youth sports industry.

If I didn’t know this game backwards and fwds, there’s no way we could afford to keep up with all the personal training these other kids get.

My dad helps out some with all the normal team fees and travel costs for my daughter’s hockey as it is.

I joke at beer league games all the time when I hear guys say stuff like "no point to buy expensive sticks, I'm not good enough to get the most out of it anyway" that it's really the complete opposite. Bums like us beer leaguers actually benefit the most out of a high end stick or stiff quality skates. It's the guys with real talent and skill that you can give them pretty much anything and they'll still be better than everyone else on the ice.

I don't want to throw too much shade on the youth sports training industry. Lots of good coaches and trainers out there providing quality service at reasonable prices. But I've seen some cons and shysters too. Bilking well-to-do parents with promises of getting their kid to the next level. Prior to Covid I had a weekend daytime rec skate (3 PM) a few years back at this small old rink that minor hockey didn't use anymore. And this goalie coach came along and wanted to run private goalie training and needed a 6 hour block that included our 3 PM slot. At first they told him no but he could have the 5 hours beforehand (10 AM to 3 PM). The next year he got our 3 PM slot too.

So I'd watch some of it before I got dressed and there was nothing special about what he was doing. A bit more one-on-one coaching. But really just kid goalies getting reps. He was paying less than $200 an hour for the ice, he had a couple older teenage players helping take shots so he was paying them. But his base "camp" was $50 per session per kid and his "higher end" was $75 to $100 an hour per kid. Say he had 12 goalies per hour he was making a killing every weekend even after covering his costs. And there was nothing special about what he was doing but he had some credentials and the parents believed his BS.

 

[Yukon Joe]

My entire registration for the 1995-96 minor hockey season was about $250 bucks. 2 games and 1 practice. Any other ice time (travel, rep, try-outs) was an extra $3 per 1 hour session.

I've said this before - it isn't that hockey is expensive- it's that elite hockey is expensive.

I don't know what age you were in 95-96, but at my local club you can do a season of U9 hockey for $660 bucks, For that price you get 18 games and 24 practices, plus one tournament, over a 6 month season - so $110 per month. I can tell you that a lot of other kids activities you'd think would be cheaper than that - aren't.

Older ages are a little more expensive but still pretty reasonable.

But yes - once you want to try and get into elite hockey it gets expensive, fast.

 

[ZJuice]

Another side of the shady..

My cousin was told he had a spot on an AJHL team. He then was told later that he did not make the cut. This crushed him, no other teams were making calls either.

While at a camp his dad was sitting in the crowd and a scout recognized him, asked about my cousin and what team etc. Then the scout said "I was told by team X just yesterday that your son is unavailable." When he got the call to say he didn't make the cut a week or two before by Team X.

So anyways.. This scout learned that my cousin is available and now he is going to play for them next season. I don't know who Team X is, but eff those guys for messing with my cousin!

 

[BruinDust]

I've said this before - it isn't that hockey is expensive- it's that elite hockey is expensive.

I don't know what age you were in 95-96, but at my local club you can do a season of U9 hockey for $660 bucks, For that price you get 18 games and 24 practices, plus one tournament, over a 6 month season - so $110 per month. I can tell you that a lot of other kids activities you'd think would be cheaper than that - aren't.

Older ages are a little more expensive but still pretty reasonable.

But yes - once you want to try and get into elite hockey it gets expensive, fast.

I know the guys who played U18 AAA travel team in my area obviously it cost exponentially more than what we all paid for our regular 2 games/1 practice but it wasn't crazy I know what all their parents did for a living it wasn't a big place really. I'd have no idea what kind of cost would of been beyond that had those elite level options been available. Private training wasn't even a thing. A few of the best players, the guys who went onto higher levels, had a gym membership and the local gym was in the same building as the rink.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Another side of the shady..

My cousin was told he had a spot on an AJHL team. He then was told later that he did not make the cut. This crushed him, no other times were making calls either.

While at a camp his dad was sitting in the crowd and a scout recognized him, asked about my cousin and what team etc. Then the scout said "I was told by team X just yesterday that your son is unavailable." When he got the call to say he didn't make the cut a week or two before by Team X.

So anyways.. This scout learned that my cousin is available and now he is going to play for them next season. I don't know who Team X is, but eff those guys for messing with my cousin!

Huh - what would their motivation even be? They wanted to see your cousin play in AAA and call him up as an affiliate or something? Or did the scout just call the wrong person on Team X who didn't know your cousin had already been cut?