Is there an issue with Finnish development system ?
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SantosHalper
Get off my lawn
Hannu Jortikka vaatii nuorten pelaajien harjoittelujärjestelmän päivittämistä – "Vanhaa urheiluihmistä oikein ärsyttää tällainen jatkuva kähmintä"
1987 WJC world champion team head coach Hannu Jortikka says exactly what i've been saying for couple years.
Hannu Jortikka demands an update to the training system for young players – "This kind of constant fuss really annoys old sports person"
I'm such an old-fashioned person that I think at least young players who aren't able to practice well enough on their own should be allowed to practice more together.
Young players need to be encouraged to practice together more.
Jortikka says that a summer training system like Finland's cannot be found anywhere else in Europe.
The same arguments year after year
The agreement between the league and the players' association will be updated next spring
Data-based facts instead of speculation
This is a bigger problem for society as a whole.
1987 WJC world champion team head coach Hannu Jortikka says exactly what i've been saying for couple years.
Hannu Jortikka demands an update to the training system for young players – "This kind of constant fuss really annoys old sports person"
Hannu Jortikka, chairman of the Finnish Ice Hockey Association's coaching committee, is not satisfied with the current training system.
Hannu Jortikka, who was quietly elected as the chairman of the Finnish Ice Hockey Association's coaching committee, calls for physical training for young players. He feels that the system has failed when it comes to summer training, which gives competing countries an advantage.
– If we want to be where we once were, we have a big job ahead of us.
Hannu Jortikka, who was contacted from his home in Spain, does not spare his opinions on the current state of physical fitness of young domestic ice hockey players. What bothers him more than the quality of the coaching is how limited the Liiga clubs are able to utilize players in joint training during the summer.
– All kinds of agreements have been made there, for example this mutual agreement between the players' association and the Liiga. Under that agreement, the player gets the entire remaining week off after the last game of the season. On top of that, there are two more weeks. Then later in the summer there is time before Midsummer and time after Midsummer. After that, you are not allowed to go on the ice until August, Jortikka lists.
Hannu Jortikka, who was quietly elected as the chairman of the Finnish Ice Hockey Association's coaching committee, calls for physical training for young players. He feels that the system has failed when it comes to summer training, which gives competing countries an advantage.
– If we want to be where we once were, we have a big job ahead of us.
Hannu Jortikka, who was contacted from his home in Spain, does not spare his opinions on the current state of physical fitness of young domestic ice hockey players. What bothers him more than the quality of the coaching is how limited the Liiga clubs are able to utilize players in joint training during the summer.
– All kinds of agreements have been made there, for example this mutual agreement between the players' association and the Liiga. Under that agreement, the player gets the entire remaining week off after the last game of the season. On top of that, there are two more weeks. Then later in the summer there is time before Midsummer and time after Midsummer. After that, you are not allowed to go on the ice until August, Jortikka lists.
I'm such an old-fashioned person that I think at least young players who aren't able to practice well enough on their own should be allowed to practice more together.
Jortikka, who won six Finnish championships in his career and has since spent most of his days in Fuengirola, clarifies that he understands that players need to have free time and that they should also be allowed the opportunity to live a normal life.
He still regrets that more days off seem to be being milked and that the coaches have not had their voices heard enough in decision-making.
– It must be said that unfortunately there has been very little sports expertise. An old sports person is really annoyed by this kind of constant bickering. Sports should now be put at the center.
He still regrets that more days off seem to be being milked and that the coaches have not had their voices heard enough in decision-making.
– It must be said that unfortunately there has been very little sports expertise. An old sports person is really annoyed by this kind of constant bickering. Sports should now be put at the center.
Young players need to be encouraged to practice together more.
Jortikka singles out the domestic league's summer training system as the most significant. He sees it as giving a significant advantage to competing hockey countries, which, according to him, have no equivalent in their major leagues. At least not on this scale.
– There are no independent training periods like Finland's anywhere else in Europe. Not in Sweden, Switzerland or the Czech Republic. If, for example, in Switzerland players were on eight or nine weeks of vacation at their salary level, society would not accept it.
In connection with the 2024 IIHF World Championship in Prague, a coaching seminar was organized, in which Jortikka was one of the participants. He also led a coaching panel at the seminar and generally praises the discussions that took place there. The Finnish training culture in particular was widely discussed. Jortikka says that the coaches were unanimous that both the quantity and quality of training should be improved.
– We have 18–20-year-old boys playing in the League. Are they all supposedly mature enough to train independently? I'm such an old-fashioned person that I think at least young players who are not able to train well enough on their own should be allowed to train more together.
Of course, Jortikka admits that there are differences between individual players. Self-reliance in itself is not a problem. The test results still suggest that the system does not work when it comes to summer training.
– There are players who return from vacation in top condition. It is still sad that there are also cases where people have returned from the summer break with a body fat of twenty percent. I don't feel like saying the name of the club or player in question.
– There are no independent training periods like Finland's anywhere else in Europe. Not in Sweden, Switzerland or the Czech Republic. If, for example, in Switzerland players were on eight or nine weeks of vacation at their salary level, society would not accept it.
In connection with the 2024 IIHF World Championship in Prague, a coaching seminar was organized, in which Jortikka was one of the participants. He also led a coaching panel at the seminar and generally praises the discussions that took place there. The Finnish training culture in particular was widely discussed. Jortikka says that the coaches were unanimous that both the quantity and quality of training should be improved.
– We have 18–20-year-old boys playing in the League. Are they all supposedly mature enough to train independently? I'm such an old-fashioned person that I think at least young players who are not able to train well enough on their own should be allowed to train more together.
Of course, Jortikka admits that there are differences between individual players. Self-reliance in itself is not a problem. The test results still suggest that the system does not work when it comes to summer training.
– There are players who return from vacation in top condition. It is still sad that there are also cases where people have returned from the summer break with a body fat of twenty percent. I don't feel like saying the name of the club or player in question.
Jortikka says that a summer training system like Finland's cannot be found anywhere else in Europe.
Jortikka emphasizes that the training problem is primarily a system that needs to be fixed. However, he feels that, for example, SJRY is not willing to help in this matter.
– We invited the players' association to visit our coaching committee, which is a rather unique opportunity in itself. There were some time-consuming overlaps, but we hope to get them around the same table in the spring.
– Then they could share what all this is about. Is it that there should be a lot of vacation? Or is it that Finnish players are all professionals who take care of themselves and are in good shape?
– We invited the players' association to visit our coaching committee, which is a rather unique opportunity in itself. There were some time-consuming overlaps, but we hope to get them around the same table in the spring.
– Then they could share what all this is about. Is it that there should be a lot of vacation? Or is it that Finnish players are all professionals who take care of themselves and are in good shape?
The same arguments year after year
SJRY chairman Teemu Ramstedt is having a lunch break at home. During the meal, he regrets that the planned meeting with the coaching committee did not take place. Ramstedt says that the players' association would be happy to come and share its views, as long as a suitable time is found. So far, no such offer has been made. He raises a legal problem regarding Jortikka's views.
– In sports, legislation is often forgotten. Opinions are thrown around about what they think is in the best interest of the system, but they completely forget whether it is even legally possible.
– This also applies to summer training. Some people think that players should only have two weeks of vacation. The annual vacation law still has to be calendared within the agreed calendar dates. If it is not, it is an illegal agreement, and we cannot do that.
Ramstedt finds it frustrating that the agreement between the Liiga and the Finnish Association of Professional Coaches is causing controversy among coaches.
– They (the coaches) come out year after year with the same arguments about issues that are none of their business. This is an agreement between the Liiga and the Finnish Association of Professional Coaches. Maybe we will also start commenting on the agreements between the Liiga and SAVAL (Finnish Professional Coaches), if this is the first time things are going in this direction.
– In sports, legislation is often forgotten. Opinions are thrown around about what they think is in the best interest of the system, but they completely forget whether it is even legally possible.
– This also applies to summer training. Some people think that players should only have two weeks of vacation. The annual vacation law still has to be calendared within the agreed calendar dates. If it is not, it is an illegal agreement, and we cannot do that.
Ramstedt finds it frustrating that the agreement between the Liiga and the Finnish Association of Professional Coaches is causing controversy among coaches.
– They (the coaches) come out year after year with the same arguments about issues that are none of their business. This is an agreement between the Liiga and the Finnish Association of Professional Coaches. Maybe we will also start commenting on the agreements between the Liiga and SAVAL (Finnish Professional Coaches), if this is the first time things are going in this direction.
The agreement between the league and the players' association will be updated next spring
If we forget about the legal obligations regarding summer training, it is still unclear what kind of results the self-initiative has enabled. Is there any fact-based and comparable information about the possible improvement or deterioration of the players' test results? Ramstedt throws the ball in the direction of Konepajankuja.
– We have asked the Liiga for more detailed data on players’ summer training, but we have not received any – in all these years. So there is no clear evidence yet.
– My own view is that the quality of training has improved because being independent allows you to better develop your own weaknesses and strengths, often with the help of your own coach. When training as a team, the quality is not as optimal for the individual, because there are so many more players in relation to the coaches.
Ramstedt admits that the current agreement between the Liiga and the SJRY is not perfect or uncompromising. He does not elaborate on the content of the negotiations leading up to the agreement, but states that it is a kind of bridge agreement model that will be rewritten next spring. More than the agreement, Ramstedt urges coaches who criticize it to look in the mirror.
– Young players train with the team for 44 weeks a year. It would be a miracle if they can't be taught independence in that time.
But let's get back to the data collected by the Liiga. Why hasn't it been made available to the players' association?
– I can't say, you'd have to ask them.
– We have asked the Liiga for more detailed data on players’ summer training, but we have not received any – in all these years. So there is no clear evidence yet.
– My own view is that the quality of training has improved because being independent allows you to better develop your own weaknesses and strengths, often with the help of your own coach. When training as a team, the quality is not as optimal for the individual, because there are so many more players in relation to the coaches.
Ramstedt admits that the current agreement between the Liiga and the SJRY is not perfect or uncompromising. He does not elaborate on the content of the negotiations leading up to the agreement, but states that it is a kind of bridge agreement model that will be rewritten next spring. More than the agreement, Ramstedt urges coaches who criticize it to look in the mirror.
– Young players train with the team for 44 weeks a year. It would be a miracle if they can't be taught independence in that time.
But let's get back to the data collected by the Liiga. Why hasn't it been made available to the players' association?
– I can't say, you'd have to ask them.
Data-based facts instead of speculation
Jussi Markkanen, Liiga's sports director, answers the phone from Switzerland's noisy Zurich airport. The work trip schedule has had to be screwed up due to a canceled flight. Markkanen states that in the latest negotiations between the liiga and the Finnish Athletics Federation, they decided to establish a sports working group, to which the collected training data will be brought. Based on this, possible needs for changes will be analyzed.
That is, the Liiga already has data from last summer's summer training, which was naturally collected anonymously. Markkanen still hopes for patience when drawing conclusions from the data.
– We will perhaps be wiser in December when we have a ready analysis of last summer's data. We will now let the analysts investigate the matter in peace.
Markkanen states that the current agreement with SJRY is an old agreement model, which was decided to be extended by a year. This is because there was simply not enough time in spring 2024 to carefully draft a new agreement. The new agreement will be relevant in spring 2025, when the current agreement expires.
– Negotiations on a new contract are just beginning. Both parties – both the Liiga and the SJRY – have issues that are being brought to the table by both sides. I will not comment further on the content of the negotiations at this stage. Of course, summer training is only one part of a larger whole.
According to Markkanen, the analysis will be interpreted by a working group consisting of sports directors, players and a few external parties. The Finnish Ice Hockey Association is naturally also involved.
– People like to speculate a lot about things, but we want to look at the facts and analyze them before making decisions.
– Everyone certainly has a common starting point that Finnish ice hockey is doing well and young players are progressing in their careers.
That is, the Liiga already has data from last summer's summer training, which was naturally collected anonymously. Markkanen still hopes for patience when drawing conclusions from the data.
– We will perhaps be wiser in December when we have a ready analysis of last summer's data. We will now let the analysts investigate the matter in peace.
Markkanen states that the current agreement with SJRY is an old agreement model, which was decided to be extended by a year. This is because there was simply not enough time in spring 2024 to carefully draft a new agreement. The new agreement will be relevant in spring 2025, when the current agreement expires.
– Negotiations on a new contract are just beginning. Both parties – both the Liiga and the SJRY – have issues that are being brought to the table by both sides. I will not comment further on the content of the negotiations at this stage. Of course, summer training is only one part of a larger whole.
According to Markkanen, the analysis will be interpreted by a working group consisting of sports directors, players and a few external parties. The Finnish Ice Hockey Association is naturally also involved.
– People like to speculate a lot about things, but we want to look at the facts and analyze them before making decisions.
– Everyone certainly has a common starting point that Finnish ice hockey is doing well and young players are progressing in their careers.
This is a bigger problem for society as a whole.
Jortikka believes that players should be made to train together more during the summer as well. They need to be in better physical condition if they want to achieve international success.
– It is easier to get into the NHL now than before, but it seems that quite a few players are coming back from there. Many of them are not even close to the level they should be physically.
– When I was coaching in TPS, or during Vladimir Jursinov's time, our young players didn't rest all summer.
It is clear that Jortikka considers independent summer training to be less effective than physical training with a team – or at least more uncertain. Somewhat surprisingly, Jortikka puts the phenomenon into a larger context.
– These problems will not be solved by hiring five psychologists for the clubs. This is a bigger issue for the whole society. We parents should raise our own children, and not always let them off easy.
– Now we are moving towards a society where everything is soft, comfortable and nice. That is not necessarily compatible with top sports.
– It is easier to get into the NHL now than before, but it seems that quite a few players are coming back from there. Many of them are not even close to the level they should be physically.
– When I was coaching in TPS, or during Vladimir Jursinov's time, our young players didn't rest all summer.
It is clear that Jortikka considers independent summer training to be less effective than physical training with a team – or at least more uncertain. Somewhat surprisingly, Jortikka puts the phenomenon into a larger context.
– These problems will not be solved by hiring five psychologists for the clubs. This is a bigger issue for the whole society. We parents should raise our own children, and not always let them off easy.
– Now we are moving towards a society where everything is soft, comfortable and nice. That is not necessarily compatible with top sports.
ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
Suomen NHL-lupaukset on tuhottu – karmea totuus paljastumassa: ”Läsähtää aika rajusti silmille”
Suomalainen pelaajatuotanto sakkaa pahasti.
www.is.fi
Svedu
Registered User
- Apr 23, 2019
- 2,599
- 1,695
In Short? What happened to all those Finnish highly touted prospects. Those who were selected early in the first round. Well, the majority failed...Can someone translate this.Suomen NHL-lupaukset on tuhottu – karmea totuus paljastumassa: ”Läsähtää aika rajusti silmille”
Suomalainen pelaajatuotanto sakkaa pahasti.
That's what the article somewhat mentions.
My own thoughts down below...
Juolevi, Pulju, Vaakanainen were so injury prone it's difficult to state anything else than that dragged them down quite a bit. Feel like two first became worse skaters than during the juniors even, or at least Juolevi.
Joni Ikonen got his career ruined by injuries as well.
Heinola have been so unlucky with his injuries and timing.
Välimäki has been injured a whole lot as well and I'm not satisfied with his development.
Overall? Prospects born 98-00 or 99-00 has plenty of letdowns for Finland. Kupari, Vaakanainen, Heponiemi and others.
On the other hand? We have players like Luostarinen and Maccelli. Players that probably became better than most believe earlier.
Quite frankly, the only ones since 98 born drafted players that I'm satisfied with are Lundell and Laine.
Laine when healthy has been a star in the league and Lundell as a mid first round pick has been playing regularly as a center for a cup winning team.
With that said, look at 94 prospects with TT, Lehkonen, Saros and Lindell. Quite the year when looking back. 95 Barkov. 96 Rantanen, Hintz. 97 Aho. 98. Laine.
The AHL however has some prospects worth following for 2-3 years and those are currently: Huuhtanen, Helenius, Tuomaala, Lambert, Aatu Räty (think he's back in the AHL), Nyman, Sedoff, Kaskimäki (has surprised me so far), Niemelä (I expected more from him this year), Jersey D's but they've been very injury prone so far and last but not least I can mention Koivunen even if I'm not sure he will make it in the Penguins.
I think Huuhtanen, Nyman and perhaps Tuomaala can be positive surprises for the majority when it's all written and done. Sedoff has impressive numbers and could be a riser but I've not seen him play at all.
Lambert still has the same issues in the NHL as he had in the juniors. Elite tools but yeah, could be another Kupari (who actually seems to become a decent fourth line center in the end at least).
I also don't believe Aatu Räty will flourish in the Canucks organization. Wouldn't mind him in Flyers. Third line and second PP with Tuomaala in the future for Flyers would be a joy lol.
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WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 32,092
- 21,461
Finland definitely had a bit of a golden generation, which unfortunately will really only get the 4 Nations thing and next year's Olympics to show themselves at the highest of level. The last few drafts have not been too good and the U25 talent is not so great. There is a big lag effect between successive bad draft crops and the effects at the senior level, but when you look down the road, there has to be some cause for concern. In the Olympics in 2034, feels like they will likely still be relying on a 35 year Heiskanen to be carrying the load. The competition is not very good, so they should still manage to stay a top 6 team without much effort but you wonder who will be on the rosters that would have a serious shot at challenging some of the bigger countries.
I think they’ll be fine, the Germans have improved so much over the past, 10 years as have the swiss, I’d be more worried about the Slovaks and the Czechs is anything.
