Is there an argument for Kopitar to be the 3rd best player of his generation behind Crosby/Ovechkin?

[Bradely]

How many shifts has Kopitar taken with Crosby in his entire career?

Now do Malkin.

How many shift did Kopitar need to go head to head with the top 3?

 

[DearDiary]

I would rank them as

Crosby/Ovechkin
Malkin
Kane/Karlsson
Price/Kopitar/Keith/Datsyuk
Thorton/St.Louis/Toews/Bergeron/Doughty

So I would have Kopitar ranked 6 to 9

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

How many shifts has Kopitar taken with Crosby in his entire career?

Now do Malkin.

How many shifts does Malkin have with Doughty and Quick to bail him out of on the defensive end in his career?

Now do Kopitar.

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

No, absolutely not, but he's a great player and HoF worthy. A 1C any tetam would dream to aquire.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I would rank them as

Crosby/Ovechkin
Malkin
Kane/Karlsson
Price/Kopitar/Keith/Datsyuk
Thorton/St.Louis/Toews/Bergeron/Doughty

So I would have Kopitar ranked 6 to 9

It seems people in this thread aren't ready to admit that Kopitar doesn't have a single leg to stand on as being better than Toews in their prime except for carving out a longer career. But this is a good step. Solid list.

 

[Bandit]

How many shifts does Malkin have with Doughty and Quick to bail him out of on the defensive end in his career?

Now do Kopitar.

Doughty and Quick, while excellent players, are not the same as arguably the best player of his generation. Also not sure how that would help Kopitar’s offense, but you do you.

 

[Randyne]

Doughty and Quick, while excellent players, are not the same as arguably the best player of his generation. Also not sure how that would help Kopitar’s offense, but you do you.

Sid didn't help Malkin's offense either.
Malkin career PPG (w/o means not available at all):
1.34 w/o Sid
1.08 with Sid

 

[Mr grumpy]

Behind Geno and Kane

 

[Toby91ca]

It seems people in this thread aren't ready to admit that Kopitar doesn't have a single leg to stand on as being better than Toews in their prime except for carving out a longer career. But this is a good step. Solid list.

I don’t know about that. I’d have the two of them pretty close to equal. I do know lot of people overrate Toews potentially more than any other player in history though…perhaps challenging Datsyuk

 

[wetcoast]

"Points don't matter it's about how kopitar tilts the ice"

meanwhile

wow kopitar got 90 points? GIVE HIM THE HART NOW

Kopitar had no business winning the hart that year. In fact, he arguably wasn't even better than malkin that year.
View attachment 1022608

Considering tht Taylor Hall won the Hart with a single point more makes your argument extremely weak.

Kopitar could have easily won the Hart that year but it seems like voters really didn't take his defesnive play into consideration that year in Hart voting, for some strange reason.

Also no hockey people would be taking Malkin over Kopitar that year, Malkin had a great fantasy year playing on the second line with Kessel against weaker opponents.

That being said Malkin at his best was higher and longer than Kopitar.

 

[dgibb10]

Considering tht Taylor Hall won the Hart with a single point more makes your argument extremely weak.

Kopitar could have easily won the Hart that year but it seems like voters really didn't take his defesnive play into consideration that year in Hart voting, for some strange reason.

Also no hockey people would be taking Malkin over Kopitar that year, Malkin had a great fantasy year playing on the second line with Kessel against weaker opponents.

That being said Malkin at his best was higher and longer than Kopitar.

Well if we look "deeper than points"

Hall was tilting the ice better than Kopitar that year (who really wasn't anything special in that area that year).

In 2018 Kopitar was riding on the defensive reputation he built from 2010-2015 (as well as an incredibly underrated year from Quick and Kuemper) that year. And this is the big problem I have with pumping the tires of guys like Kopitar here.

Once you build a reputation on defense, even if you have a down year defensively it gets ignored as long as you exist on a PK and win faceoffs.

If an offensive player has a down year offensively, they don't get the reputation ride in how that year is viewed. And again, these guys like Kopitars defense isn't REALLY the best in the league ever. It's the best out of the guys who reach enough points to be considered for it. But if you reach too many points they start ignoring your defense again.


You have to sit right in that range of points where Toews, Kopitar, and Bergeron lived to be in the sweet spot of overrating your defense and PKing abilities.

Imagine if I did the same for an offensive player. Assumed every year of Malkins career going forward from 2012 his offense was at the level it was at his peak in 2012. That would be frankly ridiculous now wouldn't it?

 

[Bishop7979]

Nah, 1984 to 1988 had a lot great players. You named all the right reasons why Kopitar is number 5 ahead of a lot of other great players like Bergeron, Toews, Getzlaf, Giroux, Marchand, Staal,... (the list goes on)

But alltime ranking is pretty set in stone for Kopitars generation, because the guys ahead of him where way better offensively (peak and prime) and won a lot of trophies (way more than Kopitar) and cups as well, while having Kopitars longevity.

1a.) Crosby
1b.) Ovechkin
3.) Malkin
4.) Kane
5.) Kopitar

Someone who, thanks to injuries, doesn't get nearly enough respect in this age group of players is backstrom. And this is coming from a pens fan.

Horribly underrated due to playing on the same team, and often times same line, as ovie.

He's almost Ron Francis level in terms of being undervalued.

 

[quietbruinfan]

Kopitar is great, but I would put Malkin and Datsyuk before him. Statistically and based on tools, Kopi is better than Dats, but I am very fond of Datsyuk's game. You don't see it anymore. Toews is almost a dead heat.

 

[wetcoast]

Well if we look "deeper than points"

Hall was tilting the ice better than Kopitar that year (who really wasn't anything special in that area that year).
View attachment 1024085
In 2018 Kopitar was riding on the defensive reputation he built from 2010-2015 (as well as an incredibly underrated year from Quick and Kuemper) that year. And this is the big problem I have with pumping the tires of guys like Kopitar here.

Once you build a reputation on defense, even if you have a down year defensively it gets ignored as long as you exist on a PK and win faceoffs.

If an offensive player has a down year offensively, they don't get the reputation ride in how that year is viewed. And again, these guys like Kopitars defense isn't REALLY the best in the league ever. It's the best out of the guys who reach enough points to be considered for it. But if you reach too many points they start ignoring your defense again.


You have to sit right in that range of points where Toews, Kopitar, and Bergeron lived to be in the sweet spot of overrating your defense and PKing abilities.

Imagine if I did the same for an offensive player. Assumed every year of Malkins career going forward from 2012 his offense was at the level it was at his peak in 2012. That would be frankly ridiculous now wouldn't it?

I see that you seem to be relying on charts to convey a message here.

In now world was Hall contributing aside from points near the impact that Kopitar was and really it's not even close.

Hall had the 4th most offensive zone starts for NJ, Kopitar was 9th on his team with players more than 60 games played and 24th overall (21st if we take away the single digit GP guys).

Like I said being a single point behind Hall who won the Hart (frankly I wouldn't have had Hall as a finalist my ballot would have been Kopitar, Mack and McDavid as I don't prescribe to the team not making the playoffs rule but even then Giroux is probably a better pick than Hall was, Hall was just the narrative in East coast circles primarily)

 

[dgibb10]

I see that you seem to be relying on charts to convey a message here.

In now world was Hall contributing aside from points near the impact that Kopitar was and really it's not even close.

Hall had the 4th most offensive zone starts for NJ, Kopitar was 9th on his team with players more than 60 games played and 24th overall (21st if we take away the single digit GP guys).

Like I said being a single point behind Hall who won the Hart (frankly I wouldn't have had Hall as a finalist my ballot would have been Kopitar, Mack and McDavid as I don't prescribe to the team not making the playoffs rule but even then Giroux is probably a better pick than Hall was, Hall was just the narrative in East coast circles primarily)

A) ZONE STARTS DO NOT MATTER MUCH AT ALL.
B) KOPITAR AND HALL both started 14.5% of their shifts in the ozone that year.
C) The main thing kopitars dzone starts tell you is that he wins faceoffs


This "extreme difference". It is 1 shift per game. 1 shift per game that Hall starts on the fly vs Kopitar starting in the dzone. yet another way these guys get overrated is by the VAST overrating of zone starts impact.

At 226 kopitar got more ozone starts than any player on LA 5v5